Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[BMD]

The opposite. Our Russia position is why we will not get vetoed by anybody except China. Otherwise, we will get vetoed by both Russia and China.



That has nothing to do with India, it has everything to do with how sh!tty Britain was.

Our role started in 1947, look at how well we did the minute Britain left. We flattened the curve and are now moving up exponentially. We are doing really well. Otoh, China did not get looted for 200 years and in fact received a lot of Western assistance after 1970s.


Nope, there's no America here. FCAS will naturally be ITAR-free.

I can't see your pro-Russian position not getting you vetoed by US and European members of the P5. Put it that way. You could potentially get 4 vetoes due to the illiteracy of your foreign policy, which might even be a new record.

It doesn't though, because you had twice the GDP/capita of China 1947. In fact, you actually had a higher GDP than China with half the population, you took a sharp dip in the late '40s and didn't bottom-out until 1980. the curve was broadly flat from 1920-1947, even during the war years, you took over and immediately dropped both bollox in 1947, you probably only bottomed out in 1980 because China's proximity dragged you up combined with exponential population growth. In 1820 you had about 200 million people and 16% of global GDP after 70 years of terrible oppression, in 2010 you had 1.25bn people and 6% of global GDP after 63 years of astute independent leadership. Your population was stable at 200-250m between 1820 and 1920, between 1947 and 2010 it increased from 300m to 1.25bn and yet you still have roughly the same share of global GDP as in 1947.

Sure colonialist interference in the 1970s should have made China worse?

 

[Arpuism]

No. Joint IP means each partner hold 50%. FCAS tech will be held by 3 partners, so ~33% each.



Converting the engine deal into a Brahmos type deal will be a massive downgrade for India. Right now, we are getting 100% ToT and IP. Anything less than that is a massive downgrade. Even 99% is a massive downgrade.



Sure. But he's referring to something else entirely. He's basically saying the NGF has to be developed, and they can't simply use the Rafale and Typhoon. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing.



Back then it was a semi-stealth fighter powered by the F414. So it had shaping and IWB, but that's it. No 5th gen engine. Basically, a little less advanced than AMCA Mk1.



The IAF officer said, LCA is 3.5th gen and MKI is 4th gen.
He said both LCA and Su-30MKI are three and half and fourth generation aircrafts respectively but the requirement of IAF at present is of four plus or fifth generations aircrafts.

In this particular case, it was very specific due to two reasons. LCA is called 3.5th gen because it wasn't integrated with BVR at the time. MKI was called 4th gen because it didn't have AESA. "Generations" can change their meaning in very specific cases, but it's not the case here. Here it's just politics. The AVM did not lie, but did not tell the whole truth either, he only answered to the point. And as per the AVM, Rafale is actually 5th gen.



1. No.
2. Irrelevant.
3. Irrelevant.
4. Irrelevant.
5. It's what makes AMCA 5.5th gen, the software, not the primary hardware. Even LCA will get this tech.
6. Not how it works. AMCA is just late. AMCA and FCAS won't even have the same engines.
7. Sure. But stealth is still restricted by design. If you want full stealth, you have to eliminate the fin and tail. Like the B-2.
8. Having an industry is a minimum requirement.
9. The US used to maintain their lead with the big bang approach. But due to advancements in China, they have taken an evolutionary approach for their next aircraft. So their objective for NGAD is to build it using proven technologies instead of developing brand new technologies like they did with the F-22 and F-35. They are keeping it a bit more simple this time due to their urgency in deploying this tech.

AMCA will be a massive success if it achieved F-22/F-35 class stealth and performance with F-35 Mk2 class avionics. Matching the F-35 Mk2 class avionics while it's being powered by the new AETF itself will be a very tall task for ADA to achieve, never mind FCAS, Tempest, NGAD, Su-57M2/3 etc, all behemoths with bigger 200-250KN engines. So bigger avionics bays, lower design limitations, larger payloads, greater range, higher engine thrust, higher electrical power etc. Just common sense says there's not gonna be much comparison.

I'm just hoping the twin-engine AMCA will be good enough to match the single-engine F-35 Mk2 even when powered by a single NGAD engine.

It's fine if you don't agree with it, but you are setting yourself up for disappointment later on. Since the answer is at least 15 years away, there's no point in debating it now.

Lets agree to disagree here friend and lets end the discussion here only but there is no need to wait for 15 yrs coz by 2026 everything will be clear.

 

[BMD]

As part of internal research conducted in conjunction with the AFRL EXPEDITE program, ESTECO technology was deployed to develop an optimization workflow of a notional close air support vehicle and to exercise several optimization scenarios.

The EXPEDITE program and the benefits of VOLTA as a server based MDO framework​

 

[randomradio]

I can't see your pro-Russian position not getting you vetoed by US and European members of the P5. Put it that way. You could potentially get 4 vetoes due to the illiteracy of your foreign policy, which might even be a new record.

We are not pro-Russia, we are pro-India. But we can't make our own decision if we cannot protect ourselves from the West and use the West to protect ourselves from Russia/China. Hence the middle ground. 1 veto is all we need. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Preferably it eventually comes from our side. But really, 1 veto is our goal. And at this time, buying the Russian vote is the cheapest, all they want is neutrality and buy some weapons from them. They won't even bat an eye if we test nukes or commit genocide. We are always 100% assured of a veto because of Russia.

It doesn't though, because you had twice the GDP/capita of China 1947. In fact, you actually had a higher GDP than China with half the population, you took a sharp dip in the late '40s and didn't bottom-out until 1980. the curve was broadly flat from 1920-1947, even during the war years, you took over and immediately dropped both bollox in 1947, you probably only bottomed out in 1980 because China's proximity dragged you up combined with exponential population growth. In 1820 you had about 200 million people and 16% of global GDP after 70 years of terrible oppression, in 2010 you had 1.25bn people and 6% of global GDP after 63 years of astute independent leadership. Your population was stable at 200-250m between 1820 and 1920, between 1947 and 2010 it increased from 300m to 1.25bn and yet you still have roughly the same share of global GDP as in 1947.

Yada, yada. You don't know the history of India so it's easy for you to say anything you want. Your great grandfather, his father, his grandfather, and his great-grandfather's generations were complete twats. Putin's a saint compared to them.

 

[randomradio]

Lets agree to disagree here friend and lets end the discussion here only but there is no need to wait for 15 yrs coz by 2026 everything will be clear.

2026 is too early for FCAS. We will see the first prototype only around the time AMCA Mk1 achieves IOC.

 

[Arpuism]

2026 is too early for FCAS. We will see the first prototype only around the time AMCA Mk1 achieves IOC.

NGF first flight is scheduled in 2026.

 

[randomradio]

NGF first flight is scheduled in 2026.

2027 now. That's a TD. It will have an initial airframe with a proven engine (11T version of M88) and no combat-related avionics, it's meant to validate the airframe. It may not even be at 1:1 scale, like the SWiFT demonstrator. The main jet with the definitive airframe, engine and avionics will fly only in the 2030s, even as long as the mid-2030s in fact. Then, around 2040 or so, it will get all its avionics, and then perhaps as long as 2045 to achieve FOC. With production possibly going all the way into the late 2070s.

In AMCA's case, the airframe and avionics are being prepared now, to be qualified by 2032 or so, FOC by 2035. So LSP should happen after 2027 or 2028. After the new engine is ready and installed on the jet (2033 apparently), it will fly for a year or two before the FSP begins. All 5 squadrons are expected by 2042, with a very tiny chance of it also replacing 2 squadrons of Su-30MKI. So 2045 at best.

As I said, the two jets are not happening in the same timeframe. By the time AMCA Mk2 finishes production of all 5 squadrons, FCAS will only be in the LSP stage, in the process of beginning FSP.

 

[Arpuism]

2027 now. That's a TD. It will have an initial airframe with a proven engine (11T version of M88) and no combat-related avionics, it's meant to validate the airframe. It may not even be at 1:1 scale, like the SWiFT demonstrator. The main jet with the definitive airframe, engine and avionics will fly only in the 2030s, even as long as the mid-2030s in fact. Then, around 2040 or so, it will get all its avionics, and then perhaps as long as 2045 to achieve FOC. With production possibly going all the way into the late 2070s.

In AMCA's case, the airframe and avionics are being prepared now, to be qualified by 2032 or so, FOC by 2035. So LSP should happen after 2027 or 2028. After the new engine is ready and installed on the jet (2033 apparently), it will fly for a year or two before the FSP begins. All 5 squadrons are expected by 2042, with a very tiny chance of it also replacing 2 squadrons of Su-30MKI. So 2045 at best.

As I said, the two jets are not happening in the same timeframe. By the time AMCA Mk2 finishes production of all 5 squadrons, FCAS will only be in the LSP stage, in the process of beginning FSP.

SCAF is expected to enter service in 2035-2040 only just 5 yrs after AMCA mk2 thats same timeframe. 5 yrs is not a huge gap. BTW 2026 flight in AMCA program will also be of NGTD thats technology demonstrator like SCAF TD. Even if SCAF TD flies in 2027, 1 yr doesnt make lot of difference.

 

[randomradio]

SCAF is expected to enter service in 2035-2040 only just 5 yrs after AMCA mk2 thats same timeframe. 5 yrs is not a huge gap.

Setback to European Fighter Jet as Companies in Deadlock

Europe’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS) fighter jet program suffered a setback as the two main contractors failed to reach agreement on its development.

www.thedefensepost.com

Scheduled to fly for the first time in 2030, the jet was slated for deployment between 2040 and 2045.

Why Europe Wants a Sixth-Generation Fighter Jet

The consequences of this announcement could be significant.

nationalinterest.org

the FCAS, to enter service by 2045...

These dates are expected to slip due to the delays.

BTW 2026 flight in AMCA program will also be of NGTD thats technology demonstrator like SCAF TD. Even if SCAF TD flies in 2027, 1 yr doesnt make lot of difference.

AMCA's TD is very close to the finished aircraft. NGF may not even be of the same scale.

I'd recommend looking up the history of Rafale to see how the French transition from TD to prototype and compare it with LCA. And I'd also recommend looking up Japan's X-2 Shinshin and compare that to the F-X.

 

[Arpuism]

Scheduled to fly for the first time in 2030, the jet was slated for deployment between 2040 and 2045.

Thats a goal shift because of incompetence of partners to reach an agreement causing delay not due to advancement. See tempest still has maintained its timelines of 2040.

AMCA's TD is very close to the finished aircraft. NGF may not even be of the same scale.

I'd recommend looking up the history of Rafale to see how the French transition from TD to prototype and compare it with LCA. And I'd also recommend looking up Japan's X-2 Shinshin and compare that to the F-X.

Yes if you see history of LCA & Rafale, you will find out how Rafale TD is close to present Rafale but LCA mk2 is going to be lot different than LCA TD and just due to industrial incompetence of India LCA mk2 got delayed.
Nevertheless you seems to be more interested in undermining AMCA rather than giving a real thought on how we are planning to move ahead. You wished me disappointment in AMCA but i wish you a pleasant surprise for AMCA.
No hard feelings mate.

 

[randomradio]

Thats a goal shift because of incompetence of partners to reach an agreement causing delay not due to advancement. See tempest still has maintained its timelines of 2040.

It's the original timeframe.

Yes if you see history of LCA & Rafale, you will find out how Rafale TD is close to present Rafale but LCA mk2 is going to be lot different than LCA TD and just due to industrial incompetence of India LCA mk2 got delayed.

You obviously didn't read enough about it. Rafale A and Rafale C are not the same aircraft.

LCA Mk2 has nothing to do with LCA TD. Again, it's not even in the same timeframe.

Nevertheless you seems to be more interested in undermining AMCA rather than giving a real thought on how we are planning to move ahead. You wished me disappointment in AMCA but i wish you a pleasant surprise for AMCA.
No hard feelings mate.

I am just using common sense, mate.

 

[BMD]

We are not pro-Russia, we are pro-India. But we can't make our own decision if we cannot protect ourselves from the West and use the West to protect ourselves from Russia/China. Hence the middle ground. 1 veto is all we need. Doesn't matter where it comes from. Preferably it eventually comes from our side. But really, 1 veto is our goal. And at this time, buying the Russian vote is the cheapest, all they want is neutrality and buy some weapons from them. They won't even bat an eye if we test nukes or commit genocide. We are always 100% assured of a veto because of Russia.



Yada, yada. You don't know the history of India so it's easy for you to say anything you want. Your great grandfather, his father, his grandfather, and his great-grandfather's generations were complete twats. Putin's a saint compared to them.

I have read all your posts, Ironhide's posts, Anonymous's etc. You very much are pro-Russian IMO. You've endeavoured at every turn to make black and white grey for the sole purpose of accommodating this position. But India will never get on the P5 because of that though. Yes, Russia will veto anything that's right, and China too. It's not like they support democracy or human rights, so anything that supports democracy or human rights will get vetoed by them. That's the UN for you.

Putin is on a fairly short chain, that's why. You can't compare the damage done by an animal chained to a post, with the damage done by an animal roaming free. And Putin was a member of the KGB in the Soviet regime, and their atrocities are only surpassed by Mao's.

 

[randomradio]

I have read all your posts, Ironhide's posts, Anonymous's etc. You very much are pro-Russian IMO.

First off, I thought you were talking about India. So, no, India is neutral, not pro-Russia, we are just taking care of our interests.

I don't know about others, but I am not pro-Russia. I am using a very neutral perspective to say the West's packed with sheep buying the ridiculous Hollywood trope of good vs evil.

The thing is both pro-Russia and pro-neutral stands suggest Russia should win, because that's the only way to ensure normalcy across the globe. And this followed by rolling back most of the sanctions. A neutral perspective will tell you that this is not about Putin, this is about Russia as a whole. The West hates Russia, but people in the West like their good vs evil story, so Western govts have turned Putin into the villain. Even if Obama, Biden or Macron were in Putin's place, they would have made the same decision for Russia.

But India will never get on the P5 because of that though.

India won't get into the UNSC because we use realpolitik. We are not emotional sheep.

Putin is on a fairly short chain, that's why. You can't compare the damage done by an animal chained to a post, with the damage done by an animal roaming free. And Putin was a member of the KGB in the Soviet regime, and their atrocities are only surpassed by Mao's.

Putin's at fault for WW2 too.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I have read all your posts, Ironhide's posts, Anonymous's etc. You very much are pro-Russian IMO. You've endeavoured at every turn to make black and white grey for the sole purpose of accommodating this position. But India will never get on the P5 because of that though. Yes, Russia will veto anything that's right, and China too. It's not like they support democracy or human rights, so anything that supports democracy or human rights will get vetoed by them. That's the UN for you.

Putin is on a fairly short chain, that's why. You can't compare the damage done by an animal chained to a post, with the damage done by an animal roaming free. And Putin was a member of the KGB in the Soviet regime, and their atrocities are only surpassed by Mao's.

Paddy, if I were you I'd be more worried about how are the following 3 decades going to treat the UK? To your advantage you don't have any immediate threats at your borders or even in your neighborhood but trust you to take advantage of it. Instead you go fishing in troubled waters.

Coming back to your economy, how're you going to tide over Brexit especially now that you're just emerging from a pandemic but with the situation in Ukraine, high energy prices, runaway inflation etc that recovery is going to be delayed.

In the medium term once the situation in Ukraine stabilizes in a couple of years & you're back to handling the economy with EU being in a far better shape obviously due to the fact they're a huge market, how do you maintain the political unity of your miserable damp isolated isles given the bad shape of your economy ?

Lastly the events triggered by the Wuhan virus followed by the Ukrainian war will continue to cascade presenting the world with multitudes of challenges which , suffice to say, is going to have a similar effect of upturning & redrawing the present world order , like WW-2 did last century.

Frankly, there's a role in or for the EU by which I mean the major players in it , even for Russia though it's a stretch but I don't foresee a role for the UK.

Neo democracies unlike " liberal " western democracies would be dominating the day & as of now they constitute significant members of the 3rd world & the world's population, namely Mexico, Brazil, Argentina ( perhaps) , Egypt, Nigeria, RSA, Indonesia, India ( most definitely) would have a vital role to play here.

You're part of the ancien regime. Usually such entities don't get the message & bow out gracefully but have to be physically thrown out. It'd be our pleasure to do the needful.

Hope you stick around till that time & don't kick the bucket. I really won't touch upon the rapid spread of your favourite & the world's most rapidly spreading religion in the UK & Europe which is another challenge you'd face in the next 2-3 decades in a big way . Let's save something for another day, shall we .

 

[Arpuism]

It's the original timeframe.

Original timeframe was alwayz 2035-2040. Tempest still maintains the same timeline as it is still on track whereas SCAF is ‘’DELAYED’’.

You obviously didn't read enough about it. Rafale A and Rafale C are not the same aircraft.

LCA Mk2 has nothing to do with LCA TD. Again, it's not even in the same timeframe.

I knw mate Rafale A & Rafale C are not same bt still not that much different. However, program objectives of LCA program will be ultimately met in LCA mk2 which is much more different than LCA TD. It became clear during LCA TD flights itself that LCA mk2 will be required for IAF requirements. If we had industry like Europe we would have directly moved to LCA mk2 for production version. It was just because of un matured aerospace industry of India that we took that long from LCA TD to LCA mk2.

AMCA program wont face this handicap and we will achieve changes of the level of LCA mk1 to LCA mk2 in AMCA mk 1 to AMCA mk2 within the timeframe of program. ADA has already stated that there will be structural changes from AMCA mk1 to AMCA mk2. Rest assured latest of design & manufacturing tools will be implemented for the same.

 

[BMD]

First off, I thought you were talking about India. So, no, India is neutral, not pro-Russia, we are just taking care of our interests.

I don't know about others, but I am not pro-Russia. I am using a very neutral perspective to say the West's packed with sheep buying the ridiculous Hollywood trope of good vs evil.

The thing is both pro-Russia and pro-neutral stands suggest Russia should win, because that's the only way to ensure normalcy across the globe. And this followed by rolling back most of the sanctions. A neutral perspective will tell you that this is not about Putin, this is about Russia as a whole. The West hates Russia, but people in the West like their good vs evil story, so Western govts have turned Putin into the villain. Even if Obama, Biden or Macron were in Putin's place, they would have made the same decision for Russia.



India won't get into the UNSC because we use realpolitik. We are not emotional sheep.



Putin's at fault for WW2 too.

India is a democracy, so it is only as neutral as the opinions of its people.

Sometimes it really is that simple though. Russia is an authoritarian regime, it invaded an independent democracy with an elected leader, committed a massacre in Bucha, blew up a civilian shelter, a hospital, a school and a packed railway station. All its pretexts are complete and utter lies. Out of 6,000 separatists, i.e. terrorists, killed in the Donbass between 2014 and 2018, 4,360 were Russian military, i.e. not separatists at all. Russia thought they'd be able to infiltrate the Donbass and hold it covertly with undercover servicemen and some local ne'er do-wells and spread, but Ukrainian forces cracked down on them, so Russia branded them Nazis and invaded. Same as South Ossetia, same as Hitler did in Poland in 1939.

Sheep are very neutral too. They just stay there eating grass, few of them get taken off somewhere, they keep eating grass and maintain their neutral stance.

Putin no, but I'm sure you've heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Putin was later a part of that regime.

 

[Herciv]

I have read all your posts, Ironhide's posts, Anonymous's etc. You very much are pro-Russian IMO. You've endeavoured at every turn to make black and white grey for the sole purpose of accommodating this position. But India will never get on the P5 because of that though. Yes, Russia will veto anything that's right, and China too. It's not like they support democracy or human rights, so anything that supports democracy or human rights will get vetoed by them. That's the UN for you.

Putin is on a fairly short chain, that's why. You can't compare the damage done by an animal chained to a post, with the damage done by an animal roaming free. And Putin was a member of the KGB in the Soviet regime, and their atrocities are only surpassed by Mao's.

ANd ?
Where's the problem ? In the coming world India has a own card tp play. India want to stay between US and China and not to confront any of them. If it's happen India will benefit from both. Because everyone will be happy to find a way to expport to an other block.

 

[BMD]

ANd ?
Where's the problem ? In the coming world India has a own card tp play. India want to stay between US and China and not to confront any of them. If it's happen India will benefit from both. Because everyone will be happy to find a way to expport to an other block.

The problems are the posts I'm reading as regards Russia. There is a clear belief of Russia propaganda being demonstrated.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The problems are the posts I'm reading as regards Russia. There is a clear belief of Russia propaganda being demonstrated.

There's only a clear belief we don't share your views nor your propaganda. There are no good or bad guys out there or here . It's all about interests & power politics. The rest is all about narratives being constructed to be sold to those of feeble minds with no capacity for independent & critical thinking.

If at the age of 55 you haven't understood these basic facts of life , it's safe to declare you'd never do so going ahead. Those narratives are for you then just as those counter narratives are .

 

[A Person]

Nope, there's no America here. FCAS will naturally be ITAR-free.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is not ITAR-free.

The German-led FCAS will not be ITAR-free either, because it will need to integrate the F-35, and that will require American equipment. Unless America opens up the MADL communication standard so that a 100% compatible independent implementation can be created by Germany, but who believes in such fairytales?