Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[randomradio]

Original timeframe was alwayz 2035-2040. Tempest still maintains the same timeline as it is still on track whereas SCAF is ‘’DELAYED’’.
View attachment 23366

It literally says "Entry into service" is 2040+. Which is what even I said. The same date is 2032 for AMCA Mk1. So what AMCA does in 2032, FCAS will do after 2040+.

I knw mate Rafale A & Rafale C are not same bt still not that much different. However, program objectives of LCA program will be ultimately met in LCA mk2 which is much more different than LCA TD. It became clear during LCA TD flights itself that LCA mk2 will be required for IAF requirements. If we had industry like Europe we would have directly moved to LCA mk2 for production version. It was just because of un matured aerospace industry of India that we took that long from LCA TD to LCA mk2.

LCA Mk2 will not meet program objectives of the original LCA. It's a whole new plane. The design that was meant to meet objectives has been scrapped. There's no relation between LCA TD and Mk2, like quite literally.

AMCA program wont face this handicap and we will achieve changes of the level of LCA mk1 to LCA mk2 in AMCA mk 1 to AMCA mk2 within the timeframe of program. ADA has already stated that there will be structural changes from AMCA mk1 to AMCA mk2. Rest assured latest of design & manufacturing tools will be implemented for the same.

None of this is what we were talking about.

 

[randomradio]

India is a democracy, so it is only as neutral as the opinions of its people.

One of the dumbest statements I've heard in a while. But if that's your excuse, then why sanction the average Russians too? Their opinion counts for sh!t after all. But of course, the real world doesn't work that way.

Sometimes it really is that simple though. Russia is an authoritarian regime

Blah, blah, blah, this is where you lot go off the deep end and stop making sense. Authoritarian or not, actions matter more. The greatest democracy in the world is more of a tyrant today than any authoritarian regime. Start meaningless wars, kill people endlessly, there's no meaning in it, it's all just power play. But you will never get it, 'cause of the amount of childish nonsense you have been gassed up with since you were kids.

Putin was later a part of that regime.

I'm sure Putin is the reason for the extinction of the dinosaurs.

 

[BMD]

One of the dumbest statements I've heard in a while. But if that's your excuse, then why sanction the average Russians too? Their opinion counts for sh!t after all. But of course, the real world doesn't work that way.



Blah, blah, blah, this is where you lot go off the deep end and stop making sense. Authoritarian or not, actions matter more. The greatest democracy in the world is more of a tyrant today than any authoritarian regime. Start meaningless wars, kill people endlessly, there's no meaning in it, it's all just power play. But you will never get it, 'cause of the amount of childish nonsense you have been gassed up with since you were kids.



I'm sure Putin is the reason for the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Because there was no choice. All the choices were made by Putin. Ukraine wanted into NATO, NATO blocked them, Russia invaded them forcing Finland and Sweden to join NATO. Now Putin is threatening to but nukes in the Baltics, what does he think will be the response to that? NATO nukes in the Baltics of course. Given the opinions expressed here, I'm not sure neutral really is neutral. You seem to think Russia invading Ukraine is NATO's fault. Russia didn't want them in NATO, and NATO blocked them, which part was NATO's fault?

Go ask Iraqis if removing Saddam Hussein was meaningless. Meaningless to you because it didn't affect you. You guys still bring up 1971 and use the British Empire to explain India's economic underperformance and you wish to lecture me about the childish nonsense I've been gassed up with since being a kid?

Putin is a dinosaur metaphorically. He's trying to resurrect the Russian Empire of 1904 using 19th century techniques. I've never seen such a display of idiocy.

 

[randomradio]

The Eurofighter Typhoon is not ITAR-free.

The German-led FCAS will not be ITAR-free either, because it will need to integrate the F-35, and that will require American equipment. Unless America opens up the MADL communication standard so that a 100% compatible independent implementation can be created by Germany, but who believes in such fairytales?

I believe the Air Combat Cloud forms the first circle, whereas all these external aircraft, including Rafale and F-35 will form the second circle. So the F-35 is outside the main cloud system anyway, even the Rafale. Furthermore, NATO aircraft will be connected using Link 16 and TTNT, not MADL, which is only a patrol link, aka the American ACC.

With the FCAS ACC being a closed loop system, communication with external assets should be customisable using a NATO compatible datalink, like TTNT. So the Germans can do their own thing with the Americans after the ACC has been developed. It shouldn't affect the French.

If you're still being very picky about it, Rafale is not ITAR-free either, because it has the Link 16. And Nexium will also not be ITAR free due to the partnership with Microsoft. But it's all replaceable stuff.

Anyway, based on context, the original poster was referring to exporting FCAS tech to India. So, pretty much everything named above is irrelevant to what screambowl and I were referring to.

 

[randomradio]

Because there was no choice. All the choices were made by Putin. Ukraine wanted into NATO, NATO blocked them, Russia invaded them forcing Finland and Sweden to join NATO. Now Putin is threatening to but nukes in the Baltics, what does he think will be the response to that? NATO nukes in the Baltics of course. Given the opinions expressed here, I'm not sure neutral really is neutral.

Yes, yes, it's all Putin's fault. The Big Bad Wolf huffed and puffed and blew the three piggies away.

You seem to think Russia invading Ukraine is NATO's fault. Russia didn't want them in NATO, and NATO blocked them, which part was NATO's fault?

Only after the war began. Until then, the US and UK kept feeding Zelensky lies, to the point where he was practically begging for NATO involvement. His televised speeches provide enough of a hint that he was misled by the West even during the war.

Go ask Iraqis if removing Saddam Hussein was meaningless. Meaningless to you because it didn't affect you. You guys still bring up 1971 and use the British Empire to explain India's economic underperformance and you wish to lecture me about the childish nonsense I've been gassed up with since being a kid?

People get used to certain conditions as long as they do not die. Transitions have to be peaceful. A forceful transition turns into a bloodbath. And anything the West touches results in that. Ukraine is the perfect example.

As for the British Empire, sure we could have improved our standards with better economic decisions, but we were rich before British rule in the first place. It's a typical case of blaming the victim. But I'm not expecting anything better from a neo-Nazi apologist.

Putin is a dinosaur metaphorically. He's trying to resurrect the Russian Empire of 1904 using 19th century techniques. I've never seen such a display of idiocy.

Then he must be extinct.

 

[Hydra]

LCA Mk2 will not meet program objectives of the original LCA. It's a whole new plane. The design that was meant to meet objectives has been scrapped. There's no relation between LCA TD and Mk2, like quite literally.



None of this is what we were talking about.

Means Mk2 is still inferior?

 

[randomradio]

Means Mk2 is still inferior?

The opposite. LCA was meant to be a Mig-21 replacement. But now it's become a M2000, Mig-29 and Jaguar replacement. That's a huge upgrade and outside the limitations of the LCA TD.

 

[Hydra]

The opposite. LCA was meant to be a Mig-21 replacement. But now it's become a M2000, Mig-29 and Jaguar replacement. That's a huge upgrade and outside the limitations of the LCA TD.

If MK2 is equivalent to M2000 we operating,then it's not at all impressive. Because it will replace mig29,Jags & probably M2000 too. Such machine must be ahead of M2000,if not it's gonna be really bad investment by IAF.

 

[Ginvincible]

If MK2 is equivalent to M2000 we operating,then it's not at all impressive. Because it will replace mig29,Jags & probably M2000 too. Such machine must be ahead of M2000,if not it's gonna be really bad investment by IAF.

I assume that even if the mk2 isn't the "next generation fighter of the future" it will still serve to reduce the logistics footprint of the IAF by replacing many legacy 3rd/4th gen fighter competantly enough. It will also come with more modern avionics and spares commonality with other platforms operated by the IAF. Not to mention, new airframes, more lifespan. It will be a workhorse fighter, like the J-10 or the F15/16.

 

[Arpuism]

It literally says "Entry into service" is 2040+. Which is what even I said. The same date is 2032 for AMCA Mk1. So what AMCA does in 2032, FCAS will do after 2040+.

It was 2035-2040 only not 2040+. Read carefully what dassault has in its website. AMCA mk2 is also slated to enter service in 2035-2040. 2032 is for AMCA mk 1 mate.

LCA Mk2 will not meet program objectives of the original LCA. It's a whole new plane. The design that was meant to meet objectives has been scrapped. There's no relation between LCA TD and Mk2, like quite literally.

LCA mk2 is designed to meet the original as well the contemporary LCA requirements. Mate the fact that LCA mk2 is evolution of LCA TDs only thats why it will straightaway have production versions and no TD will be required. Similarly TEDBF will be straightaway production version of NLCA.

None of this is what we were talking about.

you were saying about how final NGF or Tempest can have design changes from their TDs but AMCA mk 2 cannot differ from NGTD. But thats not true and same is possible with AMCA also coz all three programs have same amount of time with them and India now has the industry to be at par with Europe.

 

[BMD]

Yes, yes, it's all Putin's fault. The Big Bad Wolf huffed and puffed and blew the three piggies away.



Only after the war began. Until then, the US and UK kept feeding Zelensky lies, to the point where he was practically begging for NATO involvement. His televised speeches provide enough of a hint that he was misled by the West even during the war.



People get used to certain conditions as long as they do not die. Transitions have to be peaceful. A forceful transition turns into a bloodbath. And anything the West touches results in that. Ukraine is the perfect example.

As for the British Empire, sure we could have improved our standards with better economic decisions, but we were rich before British rule in the first place. It's a typical case of blaming the victim. But I'm not expecting anything better from a neo-Nazi apologist.



Then he must be extinct.

Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, Bucha, Mariupol shelter, Kramatorsk station, multiple poisonings involving Novichok and Polonium.

You witnessed all these conversations? Or just believing RT word for word again?

Naivety. Transitions do not happen against force without some force. Newtons Second Law. Russia turned it into a bloodbath, the rebellion in the east only happened because of Russia military in Ukraine, without that the transition was relatively peaceful. It's Russia's fault, simple as that. You think China can transition to a democracy peacefully?

You had wealth in the past from previous empires of your own like the Cholas, but it was hoarded by the few and put to little use. If you were rich generally you wouldn't have been invaded. Nor would so many Indians have signed up to the British military for a regular wage such that they formed the vast majority of the invasion force. All empires were wrong, but get your facts straight. You watch too much RT, and you've been brainwashed into thinking every problem in India is of British origin. And you're a Putin apologist, which is worse these days.

Close, he must be made extinct.

 

[randomradio]

If MK2 is equivalent to M2000 we operating,then it's not at all impressive. Because it will replace mig29,Jags & probably M2000 too. Such machine must be ahead of M2000,if not it's gonna be really bad investment by IAF.

When a jet replaces another, it's also because it's better than the older jet. I never said it's equivalent to the M2000, I said it's a replacement for the M2000.

I assume that even if the mk2 isn't the "next generation fighter of the future" it will still serve to reduce the logistics footprint of the IAF by replacing many legacy 3rd/4th gen fighter competantly enough. It will also come with more modern avionics and spares commonality with other platforms operated by the IAF. Not to mention, new airframes, more lifespan. It will be a workhorse fighter, like the J-10 or the F15/16.

IAF's goal is to match the performance of the M2000 but with avionics significantly superior to it. ADA's goal is to surpass the M2000 in every way. In terms of payload and range, it already surpasses the M2000. The end goal is to also provide it with some AMCA technologies, like networking, optionally manned capability and loyal wingmen.

 

[Arpuism]

The model of the NGF presented at Le Bourget was 18 metres long. Admiral Christophe Prazuck, Chief of the Naval Staff, mentioned NGF to be around 30 tonnes. Since France needs NGF to take off from the aircraft carrier, NGF wont go beyond this. Since MTOW is about same as F 35, i have speculated following specifications for NGF:-

NGF (speculative specs)
Length - 18m
Empty weight - 13 MT
Fuel Capacity - 8 MT
Internal stores - 2-3 MT
External stores - 6-7 MT
MTOW - 30 MT
Engine - 2x125 kN (for same T/W as F 22)

comparing it with specs of AMCA mk1 confirmed previously :-
Length - 17.2m
Empty weight - 12 MT
Fuel capacity - 6.5 MT
Internal stores - 1.5 MT
External stores - 5 MT
MTOW - 25 MT
Engine - 2x110 kN

Now ADA has asked for 125 kN engine with 20% growth potential with “MINOR CHANGES”. This may mean that during CDR, they have realised need to increase size and capacity of AMCA mk2 from current AMCA mk1 specs. Even if they havent it may be done during AMCA mk 1 phase. Based on this speculative AMCA mk2 specs :-
AMCA mk2(speculative specs)
Length - 18 m (adding 0.8m plug for fuel & avionics)
Empty weight - 13 MT (1 MT due to added length, SWBs & strengthening for airframe)
Fuel capacity - 7 MT (0.5 m fuel plug)
Internal stores - 2 MT
External stores - 6-7 MT
MTOW - 28-29 MT
Engine - 2x 125-135 kN

 

[Optimist]

Original timeframe was alwayz 2035-2040. Tempest still maintains the same timeline as it is still on track whereas SCAF is ‘’DELAYED’’.
View attachment 23366


I knw mate Rafale A & Rafale C are not same bt still not that much different. However, program objectives of LCA program will be ultimately met in LCA mk2 which is much more different than LCA TD. It became clear during LCA TD flights itself that LCA mk2 will be required for IAF requirements. If we had industry like Europe we would have directly moved to LCA mk2 for production version. It was just because of un matured aerospace industry of India that we took that long from LCA TD to LCA mk2.

AMCA program wont face this handicap and we will achieve changes of the level of LCA mk1 to LCA mk2 in AMCA mk 1 to AMCA mk2 within the timeframe of program. ADA has already stated that there will be structural changes from AMCA mk1 to AMCA mk2. Rest assured latest of design & manufacturing tools will be implemented for the same.

Dassault is saying 2050 now.

Dassault Threatens to Exit EU Combat Jet in Spat With Airbus

Dassault Aviation SA threatened to pull out of an alliance with Airbus SE to develop a future European fighter jet, in an escalation of the drawn out dispute between the two defense contractors over leadership of the project.

www.bloomberg.com

The new combat jet isn’t expected to enter service until about 2050 due to delays

 

[_Anonymous_]

Dassault is saying 2050 now.

Dassault Threatens to Exit EU Combat Jet in Spat With Airbus

Dassault Aviation SA threatened to pull out of an alliance with Airbus SE to develop a future European fighter jet, in an escalation of the drawn out dispute between the two defense contractors over leadership of the project.

www.bloomberg.com

The new combat jet isn’t expected to enter service until about 2050 due to delays

Tempest isn't coming in 2035 either.

 

[Arpuism]

Dassault is saying 2050 now.
Bloomberg - Are you a robot? The new combat jet isn’t expected to enter service until about 2050 due to delays

Yes the project is delayed due to non agreement between partner nations but only that bloomberg news article reported 2050 not others. May be from 2035-2040 it may shift to 2040-2045.

Tempest isn't coming in 2035 either.

Tempest is on track for 2035-2040 entry into service.

 

[Optimist]

Yes the project is delayed due to non agreement between partner nations but only that bloomberg news article reported 2050 not others. May be from 2035-2040 it may shift to 2040-2045.

Tempest is on track for 2035-2040 entry into service.

It is a quote from Trapper. It is widely reported. The frogs here will verify, if you ask.

 

[Optimist]

Start with this one if you want.

SCAF : Le Pdg de Dassault Aviation en a assez d'attendre le bon vouloir d'Airbus pour le futur avion de combat - Zone Militaire

Depuis maintenant plus d'un an, l'avenir du Système de combat aérien du futur , un programme lancé par la France, dans le cadre d'une coopération avec

www-opex360-com.translate.goog

“For the NGF, we said, roughly speaking: 'first aircraft in 2040'. In reality, as we are falling far behind, it will be after 2040 for an initial standard. And by the time there is a definitive standard and the armed forces take it into account, you will have operational planes in 2050”, warned the CEO of Dassault Aviation, who said he was waiting for the signature of Airbus.

 

[Arpuism]

It is a quote from Trapper. It is widely reported. The frogs here will verify, if you ask.

Thanks. Thats right IOC 2040-2045 thats what I also meant due to delays. Initially it was planned 2035-2040. But if the contract is signed in 2022, I still feel they may be able to compress the timelines again. I trust French & German industries. They have matured industry and very efficient people.

 

[Lolwa]

If MK2 is equivalent to M2000 we operating,then it's not at all impressive. Because it will replace mig29,Jags & probably M2000 too. Such machine must be ahead of M2000,if not it's gonna be really bad investment by IAF.

The mk 1 is already ahead of the mirage when it comes to a2g missions. The MWF will be among the best 4++ fighters on par with Gripen E and rafale and most likely superior to f-16 blk-70.
The mk 1 has replaced our mig 27's,and mig 21 . The mk 1a will replace the mig 21 bisons and mig 23's. The mk 2 will replace the mig 29 and mirage and even to an extent the jaguar.