IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Who ruled from 1990-1998? Congress, Gujral etc. Good luck with it.

Again instead of bs'ing, corroborate your sabotage charge, hopefully without time travel and massage parlor conspiracy. Show me one single proposal from GTRE for building a AT or FTB test bed that was rejected by UPA, Gujral, Deve Gouda, Rao, Ragiv Gandhi, VP singh, take your pick.
 
Again instead of bs'ing, corroborate your sabotage charge, hopefully without time travel and massage parlor conspiracy. Show me one single proposal from GTRE for building a AT or FTB test bed that was rejected by UPA, Gujral, Deve Gouda, Rao, Ragiv Gandhi, VP singh, take your pick.


The sanction for Kaveri happened in 1990. They made initial tests but could not succeed. The actual backing was given by Vajpayee in 1998-99 along with Tejas LCA.

The funding for the entire project till 2014 was 2100 crore! This is called fund denial. The GTRE wanted a test bed in India as Kaveri was failing at high altitude test. But, India did not construct it. Flying to Russia everytime is expensive, cuts into budget as well as increases delays.

Yes, massage parlour arrest was a conspiracy too. Just read the news properly and see how the timing of the raids match.
 
Incorrect. LCA has always been an excuse and punching bag for both PMO & IAF.

Correction - Mk. 1 has always been a punching bag.
IAF grudgingly accepted Mk-1A because it'll help with the sqn shortfalls. They're happy with the proposed Mk-2 specs.
As long as ADA HAL can deliver what they promise, with or without foreign help.

Take it from me. There will be no F-16s trials like MMRCA. We are only talking about IAF putting the stamp of approval and that would happen as soon as additional RAFALE numbers have been agreed upon between PMO & IAF.

True, and IAF never intended too. IAF is evaluating whether they can perform effectively from the various conditions prevailing in the country. IAF is using the same ASQR meant for LCA in their evaluation with some modification regarding payload, TWR, EW systems, radar etc.
IAF won't sign off on them until they meet the requirements regardless of GOI agreement on Rafale numbers
 
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F 16 will happen Only when Modi comes back again in 2019

There are Too many things that are Left to be discussed and decided such as
The Two Remaining Foundation agreements ; TOT ; Price ; Life cycle costs
Customisations ; spares etc ; etc

We have just One year Left Before which the Govt goes into Election mode

And secondly Money is a Big factor here

There are too many competing needs and priorities

The rejuvenation of the anti-BJP forces and the Gujarat result is more the reason why F-16 deal would now be put on the fast track.

With regards to foundational agreements, they are not the means but the end goal.

Requirement for 100+ F-16s and 100+ Predator C Avenger would be used as basis to sign the remaining three agreements just like confronting PLAN was used as an excuse to sign the LSA.
 
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IAF grudgingly accepted Mk-1A because it'll help will the sqn shortfalls. They're happy with the proposed Mk-2 specs.

IAF would always support future projects only as they know that they would be rejected in future as too little and too late. They will reject MK2 in the future with an excuse that it does not have 5th gen tech and would start strongly start supporting AMCA.

This never ending cycle of rejecting current products while supporting future product proposals would be continued.
 
IAF would always support future projects only as they know that they would be rejected in future as too little and too late. They will reject MK2 in the future with an excuse that it does not have 5th gen tech and would start strongly start supporting AMCA.

This never ending cycle of rejecting current products while supporting future product proposals would be continued.

IAF has a genuine need to fill its single engined class fleet shortfalls. AMCA doesn't fill those requirements, hence MK-2 will be coming.
The only question is will it be MK-2 alone or along with another foreign SEF? All evidence points to the latter.
 
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The sanction for Kaveri happened in 1990. They made initial tests but could not succeed. The actual backing was given by Vajpayee in 1998-99 along with Tejas LCA.

The funding for the entire project till 2014 was 2100 crore! This is called fund denial. The GTRE wanted a test bed in India as Kaveri was failing at high altitude test. But, India did not construct it. Flying to Russia everytime is expensive, cuts into budget as well as increases delays.

Yes, massage parlour arrest was a conspiracy too. Just read the news properly and see how the timing of the raids match.
Let me try again:
1> Explain how a Arrest in 2011 affects project failures from 98 to 2008. Especially when in 2008 Kaveri was already de-linked.
2>You keep claiming this nonsense of GTRE wanted a tst bed, Show me one document that shows any proposal from GTRE or any DRDO arm to build a FTB or AT test article. Just one document submitted or even a testimonial from an official for CRE/CRI/CEMILAC/DGQA/DRDO/HAL/ADA/GTRE take your pick.
3> How does sanctions in 98 effect a timeline of a product whose 8 prototypes were supposed to be ready by 98. (And 98 Nuke blasts were by NDA not UPA, and other evil overlords)
4> Why would DRDO claim 2007 LCA PV to fly with kaveri in 2005 (reference provided)
5> Do you realize that high altitude performance is easy to simulate using a system balance point model utilizing barometric pressure correction for both efficiency and capacity of the system. AT is performed only to validate the operating curve at part load, when your system doesn't meet full load capacity or efficiency at ground tests, no way in hell it will meet anything at AT.
 
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Modi is like a Banyan Tree which will not allow no other tree to grow under it.

There would be zero ToT. This has been made very clear and is part of the draft agreement that was agreed upon in principle earlier this year.

Will there be any security umbrella agreement ? Or just verbal agreement ?
 
Fun thought experiment.

How much would India be willing to pay for the F-22 factory, TOT to produce 100% of it by themselves and production licensing rights.

India can now produce engine quality level of F-136, avionics of the f-22, radar etc etc.
 
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IAF has a genuine need to fill its single engined class fleet shortfalls. AMCA doesn't fill those requirements, hence MK-2 will be coming.
The only question is will it be MK-2 alone or along with another foreign SEF? All evidence points to the latter.

IAF is in need of the fighters. This SE and TE debate is a red herring, as the original MMRCA RFP included all of them with some arguing that MMRCA was born out of the delays to the LCA program.

If PMO gives IAF a free hand and an option to select either 83 LCA MK1A or 83 RAFALEs or 83 F-16s, which one would IAF select with money being no object?

Obviously IAF would go for the RAFALEs.

So the argument that IAF cannot replace LCA MK2 with AMCA does not hold any water.

By the time HAL delivers the 20+20 MK1s, LM would deliver equal if not more number of F-16s. The less we talk about Mk1A and Mk2 (which are still on paper only) the better. HAL would never be able to deliver the LCA fighters as fast as LM could deliver the F-16s.
 
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Sir.

The sanction for Kaveri happened in 1990. They made initial tests but could not succeed. The actual backing was given by Vajpayee in 1998-99 along with Tejas LCA.

I am surprised that you find it necessary to keep posting fiction and figment of imagination. For example, your statement here exemplifies that you are an obstinate person who neither knows, nor is willing to know.

Fact check for you:

Project LCA was conceived in 1981 (B.N. Raghunandan, Charlie Oommen, R.K. Sullerey in Air Breathing Engines & Aerospace Propulsion: Proceedings of NCABE 2004) and GTRE expressed it's confidence in provision of an engine for the project in 1981 itself. At the time, GTRE was already ready with configured experimental engines GTX-37-14U and GTX-37-14UB. Based on this, they promised delivery of the engine for LCA, which, once the ASQR was issued in 1985, was found to be untenable. GTRE concluded that 'there was no engine in the world which could match the specification required in the ASQR' and the work had to be started on the Kaveri from scratch. The development started in first quarter of 1989 and your claim as above is - hogwash.

Please do note that around this time India was being actively wooed by USA in the backdrop of USSR's Afghanistan intervention. In early 1980s, US offered GE 404 for India's LCA project and the same was taken up (please note that this engine was ready by 1978 and was to power the F-18s entering US forces in 80s).

It would please you to note that the GTRE was tasked with finding an engine for the aircraft and had failed to mention about the suitability of GE-404 (something which they had imported by 1987 or thereabouts).

It shall also please you to note that the HAL had already prepared the designs for a follow on of Marut by 1975, which could not take to skies due to non-availability of a suitable engine.

At the time, US was not willing to offer an engine to India. The situation was to change with Soviet intervention into Afghanistan. Also it shall please you to note that the Indian scientists were already well enroute to assimilating critical know how in Carbon Composites, for this program.

Your subsequent post is a plethora of refuse that has no value either.

Kabini C1 and C2 underwent ground test from 1995 to 1998 (350 hours) and 45 hours of Altitude tests. Satisfied by the performance of C1 and C2, and with inputs from the tests, GTRE was confident of Kaveri. (K1, K2 and K3) Tests from same, both ground and altitude, allowed the GTRE the confidence to fabricate the graded weight engine K4. (K4, K5, K8 and K9 developed earlier than K6 and K7). K5 underwent further 56 hours of Exploratory Altitude Testing for different altitudes and mach numbers. Based on successful tests of K5, further refinement in weight was undertaken. Time was taken by MIDHANI and DMRL to match up to specifications required for the alloys needed. The delay was more due to ecosystem being created.

All this was occurring as years went by and the ASQR underwent changes with passage of time.

It is also interesting to note that by 1993, according to CAG report of 2015, 54 permanent waivers of critical types were obtained by ADA-HAL-GTRE over the original ASQR. IAF was willing to dilution of ASQR as long as the product came on time (1990s).

How much fund do you want? 1 lakh crores?Do quantify the same. As for test bed, ADA-HAL-GTRE undertook the responsibility to create an ecosystem. May I enquire as to how two engines as mentioned earlier by me, were ready by 1981?
 
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As I said, delays are something that can be attributed to everything. But, considering the fact that other countries did it much quickly shows that there wasn't good leadership or political motivation. Lack of test facility is a real reason.


Sir.

The blame is with the sun. It does not provide the radiations in appropriate frequency ranges to allow for synthesis of appropriate levels of Vitamin D. Due to loss of Vitamin D, Calcium is being lost from the bones. Since Calcium loss is being detected, the Parathyroid Hormone is kicking in to mobilise calcium from bones.
This leads to hollowing of bones and results in bone pain. And to make matters worse, our neighbourhood physician prescribes Calcium supplements and forgets (if he/she knows) to mention mandatory drug holiday. As a result, more calcium is in blood.

This causes the kidney to assume calcium being too much in consumption (diet), so it stops reabsorbing and starts eliminating the same. This aggravates the bone pain.

Due to this bone pain, and decreased calcium, slowly muscle ache develops. So bone pain and muscle pain combined distracts our scientists and brains, from working productively.

I am sure that fault is never ours.

Good Day.

At Mods: Sorry if I was busy finding fault everywhere other than where it deserves to be affixed.
 
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The pint here is that there is no need for F16 at all. It serves no purpose. Wartime needs are:
1) Manufacturing large quantity
2) Spare part availability at will instantly
3) Repairing ability

No war can be won with few hundred aircraft, or without spare parts at right time or without ability to do maintenance and repairs.

All this needs large Indigenous manufacturing


Sir.

You need a vacation. May I suggest Cebu, Philipines? It shall do you good. You need a break. I am worried about your health here.
 
Sir.

The blame is with the sun. It does not provide the radiations in appropriate frequency ranges to allow for synthesis of appropriate levels of Vitamin D. Due to loss of Vitamin D, Calcium is being lost from the bones. Since Calcium loss is being detected, the Parathyroid Hormone is kicking in to mobilise calcium from bones.
This leads to hollowing of bones and results in bone pain. And to make matters worse, our neighbourhood physician prescribes Calcium supplements and forgets (if he/she knows) to mention mandatory drug holiday. As a result, more calcium is in blood.

This causes the kidney to assume calcium being too much in consumption (diet), so it stops reabsorbing and starts eliminating the same. This aggravates the bone pain.

Due to this bone pain, and decreased calcium, slowly muscle ache develops. So bone pain and muscle pain combined distracts our scientists and brains, from working productively.

I am sure that fault is never ours.

Good Day.

At Mods: Sorry if I was busy finding fault everywhere other than where it deserves to be affixed.
Hohoohoho

Yeah, fault is here and that is in politics, not in scientists. Because these same scientists seem to get great results working in USA. That is where you should be looking at.
 
Please do note that around this time India was being actively wooed by USA in the backdrop of USSR's Afghanistan intervention. In early 1980s, US offered GE 404 for India's LCA project and the same was taken up (please note that this engine was ready by 1978 and was to power the F-18s entering US forces in 80s).
F404 was operationalised in 1984-85. Early 80s you say that India was offered it?
?
May I enquire as to how two engines as mentioned earlier by me, were ready by 1981?
GTRE was founded in 1978. You say that they made an engine by 1981? Are you serious?
 
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