IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
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Why can't AMCA be designed for multirole combat? Also, in today's warfare involving guided bombs, is "specialised ground attack" even relevant?
What if the requirement suddenly changes? Is there a contingency plan? Or do you expect India to accept death? Emergency measures may require 400 squadrons too. How to handle changes in needs suddenly?
What do you mean by 4.5 generation and 5th generation? What difference do you expect and why do you think Tejas MK2 is irrelevant once AMCA comes? Isn't the cheap production cost of Tejas MK2 (due to single engine, canardless delta and lightweight) makes it a more efficient plane to use?
Last but important question:
What will happen if India replaces all its planes with only 2 - AMCA and LCA Mk2 after 2030? That is, without going for FGFA, Rafale, F16 or any imported plane at all anymore than what is ordered now? Give cost benefit analysis. Please don't speak in a depraved manner
You can read can't you?
Every multirole aircraft will be optimized for a specific mission depending on the need of the user.
Unless the Martians decide to attack us just for the heck of it, we'll be fine.
I'm not gonna sit here and tutor you on the basic differences between generations and how fighters are classified based on their weight-class and roles. Do us all a favor and google it before ranting unreasonably.
When did i say Mk-2 is irrelevant? HAL and IAF is aiming to complete the production of Mk-2 by the time AMCA comes online.
Wait, in the earlier comments you said we need 10,000 squadrons. Now only 400 hundred required? What happened?? I guess the saner Martians might have decided not to attack India after reading your comments! So that means we'll only have to deal with those extremist ones.
Good going buddy!! India will always be indebted to you.
That's all for tonight folks!! Have a great one. Cheerios and Salut!
Since you already know that there is going to be no war, why even have an army and this large equipment? Good luck with your logic
You can read can't you?
Every multirole aircraft will be optimized for a specific mission depending on the need of the user.
Unless the Martians decide to attack us just for the heck of it, we'll be fine.
I'm not gonna sit here and tutor you on the basic differences between generations and how fighters are classified based on their weight-class and roles. Do us all a favor and google it before ranting unreasonably.
When did i say Mk-2 is irrelevant? HAL and IAF is aiming to complete the production of Mk-2 by the time AMCA comes online.
Wait, in the earlier comments you said we need 10,000 squadrons. Now only 400 hundred required? What happened?? I guess the saner Martians might have decided not to attack India after reading your comments! So that means we'll only have to deal with those extremist ones.
Good going buddy!! India will always be indebted to you.
That's all for tonight folks!! Have a great one. Cheerios and Salut!
Dear Sir,
I can't BELIEVE the questions you had to field. Why do people posture when they can't understand the basics? Anyway, A+ for patience, and Merry Christmas to you. Have a lot to drink; you really do need it.
For this F16 saga best way to deal is to let our notorious Babu's take care of it. We definitely have enough capable Babu's to delay negotiations for a decade. No F16 production lines would be active that long.
Yeah I know IAF does not have a plan B and they have proclaimed it time and again.
1) Okay, France can give us RAFALEs but can France give India $24-billion trade surplus?
2) Can Macron implement policies that puts France first to make France great again than keep supporting Paris agreement?
If the answers are no then your voice does not count.
You are giving too much credit to the Babus.
A strong message was sent to all the babus when Modi fired Dr. Avinash Chander (Director General of DRDO) and Sujatha Singh (Foreign Secretary ). No Babu worth his/her salt is going to take the risk of going against PMO lest they would end up having the same fate as their former colleagues.
The only ones that are putting a fight are the IAF but they will relent if they could get additional RAFALE orders in the bargain. That's the best Indians could hope apart from Modi loosing the election in 2019 which seems insurmountable.
Off course they will get chance to show their talent with blessing from PMO. After all it will be PMO they would be bailing out.
I was passing this comment on a lighter note.
Why don't you think that PMO is concocting a tale to politely reject F16 by putting the onus on IAF and stating that IAF doesn't need it? What if the RFI was only to check the willingness of vendors to offer ToT and not really an intention to buy off the shelf? On realising that none is giving anything meaningful, Modi quietly might have bailed out by giving excuses like these.
Isn't this a possibility too? I would have done the same. In fact, I told this on another forum the moment the RFI for SE fighter was out. I guess it is a good guess, considering that USA has refused ToT.
Your backroom story would have made perfect sense if PMO is being run by Russian leaning Congress rather than US leaning BJP.
US is not in favor going through RFP or SP process rather want to have a G2G deal hence the RFP is not being issued.
I would bet if RFP were to be issued and F-16 and Gripen to go head to head like the MMRCA, IAF would definitely select Gripen as Gripen provides more room for commonality of the weapons and technologies with RAFALEs.
At this time PMO is forcing IAF choose between F-16s and Tejas with no option to choose Gripens or RAFALEs. IAF would have no option but to choose F-16s but they want to get additional RAFALEs in return for putting their stamp of approval on the F-16 deal.
The additional RAFALE deal would be cleared in JAN-2018 and subsequently IAF would agree to the F-16 deal.
With a twist.The pound of flesh IAF seeks is very big in terms of Rafale number. and Merignac line is now busy for a good time.. What IAF wants is MII Rafales bcz that will make no government back off as its NDAs or PM Modi's own pet project. And secondly its an Indian company in JV. so its more of future shockproof...
And IAF is not alone in asking that.. The IN and MRCBF support makes it tough for PMO to look away and ignore it..
I am really surprised that the concept of only Indian planes of LCA and AMCA being used by 2030 doesn't even arise here.
Modi is not pro USA. Modi won't forget that USA denied him VISA. Also, here it is not a matter of supporting any country but ensuring Indian safety. That will come only if it is Indian made fighters and equipment under use. Just like India is not asking for USA troops deployment as in Korea or Japan stating that USA soldiers have better height and nutririon, it doesn't make sense to ask for imports unless desperately needed and there is no Indian alternative.
Since LCA MK1 has been flying, Kaveri, Uttam and MK2 almost there, there is no reason to import any fighter except in return for ToT to speed up the indigenisation. Buying rafale or any imported jets carry a massive baggage of dependency on foreign countries. There is no reason to hang our lives at the mercy of any foreign power. If India wants to destroy its enemies, it need not ask for anyone's permission for additional orders or spare parts but just go for it.
No matter what make in India, the engines and important parts will always be imported. That will make it unreliable. The making of airframe is not really a big deal. Real make in India happens only when the manufacturing of Engine and Radar is in India and under Indian government control.
My theory:
The way things are going, I see more rafale orders as I suspect the rafale deal was for obtaining Kaveri consultancy. India has asked for infrastructure of more than 36 planes while order is for 36 planes only. It appears that India has put a condition that only after Kaveri engine is delivered, the next batch will be ordered. This will be as a payment for Kaveri help, not because Rafales are awesome.
The Kaveri is likely to fly by 2018 and hence Rafale orders may be coming next year, but definitely not January 2018
True but I expect PMO go in small steps and not a big bang approach on RAFALEs. Going Big bang on RAFALEs would leave PMO with little leverage on IAF on the F-16 deal and opens room for Congress to question the F-16 deal altogether when RAFALEs are already part of MII for IAF & IN.
The problem is what we want from french for the MII program
We did ask USA first-they outrightly said NO. even did not allow Israel fully to come on board for this. And French allowed the network-centric technology flow with custom hardware from Israel and full coding by India. This changes the whole game.
The roles are too different.. They are complementary. Its virtually impossible for specific strike mission designation for LCA Mk1A. Even with the improvement, we might not have high success rates. MK2 even if it looks good cant replace or compete with Rafale. The tech specs difference is too huge so also the whole aircraft and capabilities.
uttam needs more time. its A2A role is almost stable but A2G is not.. its range atm is not optimum for a operational deployment. Will need another 3-5 years for maturity. I believe someone shared yesterday that we are looking for a flying testbed in the form of Do228 to test Uttam. We have to give time and then make it work for us. for example, a matured Uttam by say 2022+ timeline can be further upgraded using the IISc GaN foundry setup allowing perhaps a GaN version by say 2025+. Now that is a huge achievement and change the game. essentially this is the building block for AMCA.
AMCA is a long way away project. The reason is simple.. the parallel processing aspect for ADA and HAL does nt work. AMCA is a 2035+ era plane.. if we fast-track it, we will end up killing the project.
Like a GaN Uttam, the upgraded Kaveri with 72/110 Kn thrust is important for AMCA. Again the present Kaveri and then next upgrade will require time.. Implying prototype of AMCA rto fly with this engine can be possible after 2025+ only,
Lastly, i may be harsh but anything which is a paper plane wont count much when it comes to real issues.. its the same reason i don't count Super Sukhois as well bcz its on paper and what we have is just MKI. Its a similar notion for Mk1A as well.. Lots of talks but almost negligible accountability by HAL which can inspire confidence that thing will be on track and on time.
I can defend HAl too as i understand issues that they faced.. But they knew these issues long time back. But chose to ignore it. Their project management skills have issues.. Maybe over time and with the new generation, folks moving from middle to upper tier may change their perceptions.
The MK2 is further ahead. Lets first wait and see HAL deliver Mk1A. by 2020. That itself will help us understand things better.
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