IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[Falcon]

F404 was operationalised in 1984-85. Early 80s you say that India was offered it?

Sir.

It is very commendable of you to play the comedian in an otherwise boring discussion. But please do understand that comedy is meant to be enjoyed for short spells only. Otherwise, it takes very less time for it to be called stupidity.

Please study the development of GE 404 and the Indo-US interactions under President of USA, Mr Jimmy Carter with Government of India under Mrs. Indira Gandhi.

It is not my, or anyone else's job for that matter, to spoon feed you, only to have you post tonnes of refuse after that.

GTRE was founded in 1978. You say that they made an engine by 1981? Are you serious?

I was, till I read your post here. Now I am afraid that I shall burst at my aging seams laughing at this.

You are clearly having effects from the sun as earlier explained by me. Even a 2nd Standard student will be able to google up the date of establishment of GTRE for you.

My sincere advice to you, free of charges (and applicable GST): stop making a fool of yourself.

Good Day.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Even a 2nd Standard student will be able to google up the date of establishment of GTRE for you.

Ok, I am sorry. I mistook CVRDE with GTRE. CVRDE was founded in 1978.

Please study the development of GE 404 and the Indo-US interactions under President of USA, Mr Jimmy Carter with Government of India under Mrs. Indira Gandhi.

1977-1980 was Janata government. Indira was in power during 1980 February to 1984.
Carter was in power from 1977 January to 1981 january 20. The election had taken place in November and Carter had lost.

So, you are saying that Between February and october 1981, Indira and Carter discussed about F404? 7months time? F404 had its first run in 1978 and was getting finalised (eventually in 1984-85). Ok, good going.

 

[dadeechi]

No ToT, no security agreement , Not at cheap price

When France provide maximum in Rafale, why do think India should buy F16 ?

The better question would have been why would India buy F16 and the answer would have been PM

Now coming to the question why Should?

Pros
==============================
1) Keep US happy
2) Retain US political support
3) Quickest induction to arrest falling numbers
4) Retain US exports
5) Keep 5th gen option open i.e path to F-35
6) Diversification and increase in competition
7) Operational commonality with other partners confronting China

Cons
===============================
1) Slide in relations with Russia
2) Loss of strategic independence
3) opportunity cost of not choosing RAFALEs

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

The better question would have been why would India buy F16 and the answer would have been PM

Now coming to the question why Should?

Pros
==============================
1) Keep US happy
2) Retain US political support
3) Quickest induction to arrest falling numbers
4) Retain US exports
5) Keep 5th gen option open i.e path to F-35
6) Diversification and increase in competition
7) Operational commonality with other partners confronting China

Cons
===============================
1) Slide in relations with Russia
2) Loss of strategic independence
3) opportunity cost of not choosing RAFALEs

Defence is not a place where you keep someone else happy. Defence is not prostitution.

 

[dadeechi]

Sir.

The blame is with the sun. It does not provide the radiations in appropriate frequency ranges to allow for synthesis of appropriate levels of Vitamin D. Due to loss of Vitamin D, Calcium is being lost from the bones. Since Calcium loss is being detected, the Parathyroid Hormone is kicking in to mobilise calcium from bones.
This leads to hollowing of bones and results in bone pain. And to make matters worse, our neighbourhood physician prescribes Calcium supplements and forgets (if he/she knows) to mention mandatory drug holiday. As a result, more calcium is in blood.

This causes the kidney to assume calcium being too much in consumption (diet), so it stops reabsorbing and starts eliminating the same. This aggravates the bone pain.

Due to this bone pain, and decreased calcium, slowly muscle ache develops. So bone pain and muscle pain combined distracts our scientists and brains, from working productively.

I am sure that fault is never ours.

Good Day.

At Mods: Sorry if I was busy finding fault everywhere other than where it deserves to be affixed.

Fully Disagree.

Firstly, Calcium is just a symptom not the root cause.

Secondly, Calcium deposits in the joints and the kidneys could be reasonably treated. It is the calcium deposits in brain that causes Dementia and Alzheimer's. And the main culprit for these calcium deposits is none other than sugar. Yes the same sugar being consumed by the scientific community directly as table sugar (Sweets) or indirectly as carbohydrates (Rice & Roti) has been resulting in brain fog and dementia. GoI should ensure that the scientific community is properly fed with nutritious food (Vegetables, Protein & Fat) to ensure that these bright minds could deliver projects on time and budget.

 

[dadeechi]

Defence is not a place where you keep someone else happy. Defence is not prostitution.

Defense is a facet and part of Diplomacy.

 

[dadeechi]

Defence is not prostitution.

Both are Business deals.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Defense is a facet and part of Diplomacy.

Yes, everything is a part of diplomacy. But that doesn't mean one wastes resources. Dimplomacy is never one sided.

Business deal whereby one side is buying wasteful thing is not exactly a deal. India can buy 15 billion dollar worth grass too, saying business according to your logic.

If F16 is bought without ToT, Modi is evil. There is no question of diplomacy here.

Until it is bought, don't make conclusions.

 

[dadeechi]

Yes, everything is a part of diplomacy. But that doesn't mean one wastes resources. Dimplomacy is never one sided.

Business deal whereby one side is buying wasteful thing is not exactly a deal. India can buy 15 billion dollar worth grass too, saying business according to your logic.

If F16 is bought without ToT, Modi is evil. There is no question of diplomacy here.

Until it is bought, don't make conclusions.

So you think F-16s lack capability?

Whether one likes it or not, diplomacy is certainly involved in this case.

Modi may be evil until he proves otherwise. Let's not assume and conclude.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

So you think F-16s lack capability?

Whether one likes it or not, diplomacy is certainly involved in this case.

Modi may be evil until he proves otherwise. Let's not assume and conclude.

I have told this before as to why F16 buying is bad. Read my previous posts. Diplomacy may be involved but it can't be one sided. Without give and take, it is not diplomacy.

Let us wait till F16 is bought or shelved. No need for your hearsays.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

So you think F-16s lack capability?

Yes it's the IAF point of view.

 

[Nick]

IAF is in need of the fighters. This SE and TE debate is a red herring, as the original MMRCA RFP included all of them with some arguing that MMRCA was born out of the delays to the LCA program.

If PMO gives IAF a free hand and an option to select either 83 LCA MK1A or 83 RAFALEs or 83 F-16s, which one would IAF select with money being no object?

Obviously IAF would go for the RAFALEs.

So the argument that IAF cannot replace LCA MK2 with AMCA does not hold any water.

By the time HAL delivers the 20+20 MK1s, LM would deliver equal if not more number of F-16s. The less we talk about Mk1A and Mk2 (which are still on paper only) the better. HAL would never be able to deliver the LCA fighters as fast as LM could deliver the F-16s.

The MMRCA contests as the name suggests were for fighters to replace the medium-class fleet, ie MiG-27s and later the M2k, Jags and Mig-29. All these fighters would be replaced with the MMRCA winner and AMCA depending on the roles. It had nothing to do with the LCA class. Inducting Tejas in numbers was always on the card as IAF needed them as an inexpensive alternative to replace the MiG-21s for air-policing, CAP and limited CAS roles. You don't need TE fighter to do that.

The LM lines would only start churning out F-16s by 2022 or later at a max output of 24/year, while the HAL line produces Mk-1As in parallel, which will be increased to 24/year around that time once Mk-2 development has progressed considerably.
Ramping up production rate of the LCA line must coincide with the development timeline of AMCA as HAL intends to use the same lines for AMCA. Hence the Mk-2 production must come to an end at the same time AMCA is ready for series production.

Now, when they decide to increase it depends on the final Mk-2 numbers. If the whole SEF tender is cancelled, then total Mk-2 numbers would go up and the production rate can be increased earlier.

BTW, Mk-1A is no longer just on paper.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

The MMRCA contests as the name suggests were for fighters to replace the medium-class fleet, ie MiG-27s and later the M2k, Jags and Mig-29. All these fighters would be replaced with the MMRCA winner and AMCA depending on the roles. It had nothing to do with the LCA class. Inducting Tejas in numbers was always on the card as IAF needed them as an inexpensive alternative to replace the MiG-21s for air-policing, CAP and limited CAS roles. You don't need TE fighter to do that.

The LM lines would only start churning out F-16s by 2022 or later at a max output of 24/year, while the HAL line produces Mk-1As in parallel, which will be increased to 24/year around that time once Mk-2 development has progressed considerably.
Ramping up production rate of the LCA line must coincide with the development timeline of AMCA as HAL intends to use the same lines for AMCA. Hence the Mk-2 production must come to an end at the same time AMCA is ready for series production.

Now, when they decide to increase it depends on the final Mk-2 numbers. If the whole SEF tender is cancelled, then total Mk-2 numbers would go up and the production rate can be increased earlier.

BTW, Mk-1A is no longer just on paper.

Why can't AMCA use the lines of Su30? Why is it necessary that AMCA and MK2 can't coexist? They are made for different purposes after all.

 

[Nick]

Why can't AMCA use the lines of Su30? Why is it necessary that AMCA and MK2 can't coexist? They are made for different purposes after all.

Because the Su-30 line is optimized for Russian production techniques and process and will be transitioned to FGFA production.
Producing Mk-2 post 2035 is plain stupid. Apart from that, Mk-2 needs to fill the SE shortfall before 2035 to achieve the 42sqn strength.
Also, as i said before, the LCA lines would be converted to AMCA lines after Mk-2 production ends, so that additional infrastructure is unnecessary.

Hence the production timelines will have to be synced accordingly.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Because the Su-30 line is optimized for Russian production techniques and process and will be transitioned to FGFA production.
Producing Mk-2 post 2035 is plain stupid. Apart from that, Mk-2 needs to fill the SE shortfall before 2035 to achieve the 42sqn strength.
Also, as i said before, the LCA lines would be converted to AMCA lines after Mk-2 production ends, so that additional infrastructure is unnecessary.

Hence the production timelines will have to be synced accordingly.

Questions:

• Why FGFA instead of AMCA? AMCA is also 5th generation plane and based on similar lines. The designing of AMCA was done along with FGFA. What roles do you see for FGFA which is not doable by AMCA?
• Why are you insisting on 42 squadron? What proof exists to say 42 squadron is the right number?
• Why do you think MK2 and AMCA aren't meant to work together but for different roles? Some planes keep retiring, crashing or go under service while some planes need to be continually produced. So, shouldn't both lines be open simultaneously?
• If according to you, we should already get 42 squadron by 2035, and 42 squadron is your limit, what will AMCA do? Since Rafale, Su30, Tejas are all new planes, they are unlikely to retire before 2040 (35 years life).

lease answer all 4 questions to continue

 

[bonobashi]

So the $15 billion were spent on peanuts was it? We received the best systems that money can buy and they contribute directly to our National Security. What concrete action do you want? You want the US to nuke China just because they keep poking us behind our head each time we look away? Please, do tell me your master plan!!!

Also please enlighten me on how you envisaged the security of our nation without purchasing a single weapon system form abroard for the next 15 years? Being optimistic is good, but never overreach the capabilities of oneself. Kingdoms and empires have fallen because they blindly thought they could handle something which evidently they couldn't.

You think any country gives ToT for free? As you were advocating the Soviets case, can you tell me one piece of ToT of a strategically important system that they transferred to India before their break-up? I'll wait while you search.
Any country is willing to transfer upto 90% of their technology provided you're willing to pay for it. But the rest 10% will never be transferred even to their best of friends, for the sake of retaining the edge.

Every country needs to show some kind of gesture to build up trust with another country. Buying F-16s is a way of showing our commitment to the US, that we're willing to buy their combat systems and willing to partner up. They, meanwhile, have promised us their assistance with the major international control groups, joining UNSC and pressurizing Pak on terrorism. These are all the political gains that we hope to get out of US. Also, we are relying on US too for any Vetos that we may require in the UNSC, as Russia seems to be moving closer to China and may not take a position in a dispute with them.

As far as economic and connectivity issue is considered, Japan is highly interested in investing in the SE region and we're interested in improving our connectivity as well. Its a mutually benefiting solution. US is interested in stymieing China's influence and not primarily in improving our economy, but that works for us regardless. Also the SE countries need to see that the options we're putting in front of them is a viable alternative and not just become a pawn in the games played by global powers. The only way to earn their trust in to show them that the alliance is strong and long lasting while being genuinely committed to the project. And to do that, cooperation should increase between India, Japan and US, both economically and in terms of military.

For your question regarding France, they're a country that has always stood by us just like the Soviets throughout the decades. But they didn't do more because of US pressure and because of the fact that we were economically weak to benefit them in any way other than some military sales.
Now, that's not the case. France was one of the first major countries that recognized India's growth potential and their ability to influence global politics. They have realized that for the next 100 years, the engine that drives the world will be in Asia.
Hence they have decided to act on it before the others and reap the maximum benefits for themselves. That includes increased cooperation in the field of economic development, investments, research, trade, defence, and global politics. France had already started sharing technologies a decade earlier, in the form of ex-Maitri SRSAM.
Presently, MBDA is cooperating with DRDO in developing propulsion systems for missiles.

Dear Sir,

That was cruel!

 

[bonobashi]

We do have one of the best FBW systems and CLAW on Tejas. But other than that what else is mature?
AESA, EW and SPJ are all still in developmental phase and a decade behind western counterparts.
"Older experience matter little now?" Do you actually think before saying stuff like this? Do you know how much research is still left to conceptualize AMCA? Which is still 20 years away? As someone who works in Aeronautical research field, take my word for it kid. Experience does matter. As well as the infrastructure to actually develop and test the aircraft.

Mk-2 is sufficient to satisfy most of our need. I agree but i'm talking about the production timeline. Can we induct them in time to fill the sqn shortfalls? Absolutely not. Especially at 16-24/year.

The 'retarded' 360/year limit is based on practical and economic limitations. Get that into that thick skull of yours.

Aircrafts aren't made of wood, aluminium and steel cables anymore. Each subsystem of any contemporary aircraft has a long lead time and need to be ordered well in advance, keeping in time with the production schedule. For the increase in production rate, each OEM that makes these sub-systems have to ramp up production rate as well. And once the order is complete, all the investment that went into increasing said production capacity of the company is wasted, making huge financial losses for said companies. Also, increasing production rate increase unit cost of the platform due to increased overhead costs.
Learn a bit about manufacturing and business management before making airheaded rants like these.

Here's a couple of article to learn from kiddo.
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reports/2007/R1609.pdf
Production Ramp-up Reshaping How Industry Builds Aircraft, Engines
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA318512



I did argue with proper facts, but you decided to ignore them. I don't know how to debate with someone like that.
I've shown you why the production timeline of LCA wont meet IAF roadmap for inducting 400 new SEF. Either prove me wrong on the timeline or calculate and prove to my the cost benefits of increasing the production rate to 1000/year!

You are on song. But what's with the bad language? That was like biting into a lime pickle.

Helpful tip: eschew all adjectives, adverbs.

 

[Nick]

Questions:

• Why FGFA instead of AMCA? AMCA is also 5th generation plane and based on similar lines. The designing of AMCA was done along with FGFA. What roles do you see for FGFA which is not doable by AMCA?
• Why are you insisting on 42 squadron? What proof exists to say 42 squadron is the right number?
• Why do you think MK2 and AMCA aren't meant to work together but for different roles? Some planes keep retiring, crashing or go under service while some planes need to be continually produced. So, shouldn't both lines be open simultaneously?
• If according to you, we should already get 42 squadron by 2035, and 42 squadron is your limit, what will AMCA do? Since Rafale, Su30, Tejas are all new planes, they are unlikely to retire before 2040 (35 years life).

lease answer all 4 questions to continue

What is this, some kind of a game show for boneheads??

1. First understand that both FGFA and AMCA belong to different categories and have different role to play. AMCA design is independent of FGFA, while the former will integrate technologies developed for the latter. That is why FGFA is important for us.
FGFA is a heavy-class fighter optimized for air-to-air combat with secondary strike capability. It'll form the spearhead of any air-to-air engagements when inducted and the MKI will be relegated to support roles.
AMCA is a medium-class fighter optimised for strike role with secondary air combat capabilities. It'll take over the roles from Rafales once inducted and will form the spearhead for any strike mission and will be tasked with DEAD missions to make way for secondary strike elements in the form of Rafales and other SEFs.

2. Because that is the GOI roadmap for IAF depending on the future force requirements to fight a 2-front war effectively.
"There is a plan by the government of India to induct fighters and by the end of 15th Plan - 2032, we will have the authorised strength. But with the numbers that we have got, we are capable of carrying out operations anytime," Dhanoa said.
economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/60958636.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

If you have issues with that, take it up with Modi yourself.

3. Both are meant to work together, but not produced together. Mk-2 is a 4.5 gen fighter while AMCA will be a 5th gen fighter. IAF needed the former yesterday!! Also it's economical to use the same production line to produce AMCA rather than to let that investment go to waste once Mk.2 production concludes. And the timeline matches.

4. AMCA will replace Mig-29 and Jags and their roles will be shared with Rafales.

 

[Nick]

You are on song. But what's with the bad language? That was like biting into a lime pickle.

Helpful tip: eschew all adjectives, adverbs.

Yea, kind of lost it towards the end. Was having a hectic day being the last one at work and all before the holidays began.

 

[bonobashi]

Yea, kind of lost it towards the end. Was having a hectic day being the last one at work and all before the holidays began.

In private, I need to ask you: what does it take to get you to recognise a bone-head? Said aforementioned bony carapace coming to an abrupt halt between your legs? Accept them for what they are - four-flushers. Verbose gas-bags. Now don't go and tell them I said these horrid things about them. It might stunt their growth, like smoking.