IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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smestarz said:
India was too optimistic about Tejas. and ADA miscalculated badly, remember its ADA who was designing Tejas and not HAL.
Rather it was too many new technologies that were to be developed simultaneously to get the plane for India, The Engine was the biggest drawback and that actually messed all the timeline of Tejas.

So now it might be better to develop the engine and then to uprate it as required. We can try and get ToT for avionics or jointly develop them.
Once the LRIP starts with final version of the plane, it wont be difficult to increase the numbers, We have to try and get about 32 planes a year (2 squadrons) so that it can be paced well,

LCA Mk2, I really wish its twin engine design with smaller engines instead of one big engine, ITs just my wish..
Click to expand...

Engine didn't mess up Tejas as it was already decided in 2007-8 that Kaveri will be separated from LCA. But, there was lack of funding from government. From 2009-2014 there was practically no development on Tejas. This delayed timelines.

We dont need ToT for avionics as we already have it. Uprating engines are for later. We need to have engines first, Tejas MK2 is already designed as a single engine plane. It is AMCA that will be twin engined.
 
Quote from an interview

Jayant Baranwal: Is the deck-based fighter, you are looking for, required for IAC-1?

CNS: Yes. IAC-1 is designed to operate the MiG-29K and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). So, (indeed) we need deck-based fighter for IAC-1 (as the LCA is not combat-ready).

Jayant Baranwal: So, does this mean that twin-engine fighter programme is meant for IAC-1?
CNS: Yes.


SP's MAI magazine for December 2017

1515133354703.png



@vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil
CNS Lanba Sir confirmed it that MRCBF planned for IAC-1
This implies what we had been discussing for long. Change of Landing mechanism and whole lift portions+weapon bays.

The IAC-1 will need more time for sure and it might be a challenge for the planned induction timeline.


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HAL’s reliance on Tejas set to expand as major programmes move towards completion
Published January 5, 2018 | By admin SOURCE: Jane’s Defence Weekly
tejas-light-combat-aircraft_650x400_81487163669.jpg


HAL has so far manufactured 153 Su-30MKI fighter jets of 182 ordered at the rate of 12 aircraft per year for INR 59,420 crores (US $937 million). HAL has completed manufacturing of Hawk MK 132 trainer aircraft, only two Dornier Do-228 aircraft of 14 are left for production. Of the 159 Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv ordered for INR 13,799 crores (US $2.1 billion) HAL has to produce only five more. Ten Cheetal helicopters are still to be produced for INR 203 crores (US $32 million), according to ministry of defense statement Wednesday. India is spending INR 2702 crores ($426 million) for production of 20 Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) LCA Tejas aircraft and INR 5989 crores ($944 million) for 20 Final Operational Clearance (FOC) aircraft. Six aircraft have been produced so far. HAL is also awaiting an Indian Air Force order of 83 Tejas light combat aircraft valued at an approximate Rs 50,000 crore (US $7.8 billion). IAF has issued to HAL a Request for Proposal (RFP) for the same last month. The final deal for the procurement is likely to be inked within the next four months. Out of these 83 LCA, 10 will be used for training purposes. HAL plans to transfer the technology of its ALH Dhruv to a domestic defense manufacturer for commercial production. is in the process of identifying a private entity with whom it will share the technology for the production of twin-engine combat helicopter in India. It is likely to float a Request for Information (RFI) soon for identifying an Indian private agency that can produce the civilian version of the ALH Dhruv helicopters in future.

HAL’s reliance on Tejas set to expand as major programmes move towards completion - Indian Defence Research Wing .
 
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Aashish said:
Quote from an interview

Jayant Baranwal: Is the deck-based fighter, you are looking for, required for IAC-1?

CNS: Yes. IAC-1 is designed to operate the MiG-29K and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). So, (indeed) we need deck-based fighter for IAC-1 (as the LCA is not combat-ready).

Jayant Baranwal: So, does this mean that twin-engine fighter programme is meant for IAC-1?
CNS: Yes.


SP's MAI magazine for December 2017

View attachment 1168


@vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil
CNS Lanba Sir confirmed it that MRCBF planned for IAC-1
This implies what we had been discussing for long. Change of Landing mechanism and whole lift portions+weapon bays.

The IAC-1 will need more time for sure and it might be a challenge for the planned induction timeline.


@randomradio @Abingdonboy @Ashwin @Hellfire @Nick @Ankit Kumar @all others
Click to expand...
Honestly, The IAC-1 should keep to its schedule of trials and commissioning with the MiG29K

When the time comes ie the MRCBF is selected and the feasibility of the change in the lifts and landing system - holds true - ONLY Then the IAC-1 should do in for this upgrade!
 
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Aashish said:
Quote from an interview

Jayant Baranwal: Is the deck-based fighter, you are looking for, required for IAC-1?

CNS: Yes. IAC-1 is designed to operate the MiG-29K and Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). So, (indeed) we need deck-based fighter for IAC-1 (as the LCA is not combat-ready).

Jayant Baranwal: So, does this mean that twin-engine fighter programme is meant for IAC-1?
CNS: Yes.


SP's MAI magazine for December 2017

View attachment 1168


@vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil
CNS Lanba Sir confirmed it that MRCBF planned for IAC-1
This implies what we had been discussing for long. Change of Landing mechanism and whole lift portions+weapon bays.

The IAC-1 will need more time for sure and it might be a challenge for the planned induction timeline.


@randomradio @Abingdonboy @Ashwin @Hellfire @Nick @Ankit Kumar @all others
Click to expand...

Of course, that was obvious.
What we need to know right now is about all measures the OEMs have proposed for their aircraft's suitability on IAC-1. But IN won't be revealing those details due to tender obligations.

GuardianRED said:
Honestly, The IAC-1 should keep to its schedule of trials and commission with the MiG29K

When the time comes ie the MRCBF is selected and the feasibility of the change in the lifts and landing system - holds true - ONLY Then the IAC-1 should do in for this upgrade!
Click to expand...

It's the other way.

Once feasibility is established (ongoing), only then the MRCBF will be selected and modifications on the carrier will begin. Ordering more MiGs right now would be counterproductive.
 
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Aashish said:
Continuing from
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Chatters

F-16 Talks
  • Post the last meeting and as guided by PM and FM, DM NS was supposed to meet LM representatives once again to talk and understand how a way out can be found with the quick evaluation perspective by IAF
  • Post this, the quick meetings requested by LM folks and USA Gov representatives has been refused by DM
  • LM and US govt representatives had tried taking up the matter with PM NM but in a flat out answer it has been conveyed that the whole matter is in the hands of MOD owing to certain new developments as described before.
  • PM NM also conveyed that there is a far better perspective deal given by French side to India for Rafale MII and thus its difficult to prioritise F-16 MII owing to lack of any counter package which is so much strategic in value.
  • OTOH DM NS is maintaining a safe distance as meritorious arguments by IAF with full evidence support their and IN request of Rafale MII first over anything else.
  • Recently Vivek Lal has also joined LM and he is known to have very strong connect in PMO and MOD
  • DM NS is also trying to remain impartial on paper to absolve herself of any charges later owing to IAF refusal, PMO endorsement and some known ppl like Vivek Lal onboard LM for this deal.

HAL Pointers
  • Production rate per year number of HAL has been flagged for many years and now it's in public domain
  • On top, HAL has been accusing IAF of not ordering more Russian Jets recently.
  • In a paper, HAL mentioned making Su35 = 4 squadrons quickly in HAL facilities with limited changes
  • IAF rote back saying acquisition cost versus present MKI will increase by almost 20% for Su-35 on Capex side and maintenance cost will rise up by 50% approx over OPEX side.
  • IAF also rebuked stating instead of HAL suggesting Russian Jets, priority should be focussed on LCA project and meeting squadron numbers first over any other new project.
  • IAF also submitted to MOD a report stating how such low production rates are hurting IAF more over anything else.
  • In a strongly worded message, MOD has told HAL to focus on meeting deadlines over fretting for order books position.

Safranised Kaveri
  • Safransied Kaveri is on a bench in France
  • The progress is defined as
    • M-88 Core insertion and seamless integration.
    • The whole Engine recheck part by part/component by component
    • Ceramic refit in certain key components done.
    • Cooling design for overall and for HP zone + turbine part has been changed.
    • Marked increased planned with these changes from present number of 1700K entry temperature zone
    • A separate overloaded afterburn testing has been initiated with these changes with the planned performance upgrades.
    • Other bench tests planned in coming days
    • A status report has been submitted by French side to MOD / IAF.
Rafale
  • IAF and IN has again pressed MOD for prioritising Rafale deal asap.
  • A series of meetings are planned for this as well.
  • Yesterday Mig29K crash has kind of showed IN frustration and they are going to press for quicker MRCBF selection announcement.
  • This augurs well for Rafale MII.


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Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch for the tag @Aashish , although for some reason I didn't get the notification (just a note for whoever is in charge of the IT here).
 
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ranadd said:
That’s a simplified way of saying this.

They wanted Indian money to develop IP and deny any ownership. Even their ministry officials said that. “Extra payment” is required for that.

India noped the *censored* out.
Click to expand...

That is a different issue altogether

Our IAF has been Busy finding Faults with PAK FA

That is so ironical given that India is still struggling with LCA

But Russia will succeed in completing PAK FA in a Year or Two

Where does that leave us ; what is our Fifth Gen Plane going to be
 
One of the measure issue was lack of 5th gen engine. If Russia can successfully develop it with desired thrust, then India might go back to negotiation table and a deal like Su-30MKI with limited ToT is pretty much possible. At the end of the day it's business and Russia will be more than willing to sell it's stuff.
 
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Nick said:
Of course, that was obvious.
What we need to know right now is about all measures the OEMs have proposed for their aircraft's suitability on IAC-1. But IN won't be revealing those details due to tender obligations.



It's the other way.

Once feasibility is established (ongoing), only then the MRCBF will be selected and modifications on the carrier will begin. Ordering more MiGs right now would be counterproductive.
Click to expand...
Of course - Im not for ordering more MiGs

I meant to have trails and commission the IAC-1 with existing MiGs, since it is from the onset what the IAC-1 is designed for - DO NOT hold this Hull to wait for the MRCBF selections and additional Modification
 
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GuardianRED said:
Of course - Im not for ordering more MiGs

I meant to have trails and commission the IAC-1 with existing MiGs, since it is from the onset what the IAC-1 is designed for - DO NOT hold this Hull to wait for the MRCBF selections and additional Modification
Click to expand...

Alright. That's probably what they'll do since flight trials from the deck would have to be done to clear the carrier for commissioning if we go by the Navy chief's time-line for induction in 2020.

But if extensive modifications to the lifts and hangar are required, we can see the timeline pushed back by another 8 to 10 months before the ship can bead out for trials or in 2020.

MRCBF contract will probably be signed in 2019, and the first jet arriving in 2022.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN said:
That is a different issue altogether

Our IAF has been Busy finding Faults with PAK FA

That is so ironical given that India is still struggling with LCA

But Russia will succeed in completing PAK FA in a Year or Two

Where does that leave us ; what is our Fifth Gen Plane going to be
Click to expand...
What is your point? If India had joined or not, the PAK-FA would have been just an assembly plane and would lack any meaningful IPR. India wouldn't have been able to make it indigenously ever.

India is not lagging in LCA. Just give Modi some time. Consider the time during UPA as a waste and subtract that while calculation if timeline.

At the end if the day, LCA is Indian and can be mass manufactured at will while it is not the case with PAK-FA. Better to have something of our own than keep begging till eternity.
 
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GuardianRED said:
Of course - Im not for ordering more MiGs

I meant to have trails and commission the IAC-1 with existing MiGs, since it is from the onset what the IAC-1 is designed for - DO NOT hold this Hull to wait for the MRCBF selections and additional Modification
Click to expand...
I find Mig29 to be better option than Rafale M as Mig29 can be pooled together from Vikramaditya and Vikrant to have better serviceability and replaceable in case of damage. Interoperability is important
 
P
STEPHEN COHEN said:
That is a different issue altogether

Our IAF has been Busy finding Faults with PAK FA

That is so ironical given that India is still struggling with LCA

But Russia will succeed in completing PAK FA in a Year or Two

Where does that leave us ; what is our Fifth Gen Plane going to be
Click to expand...

It is not. It is the same issue.

Again, say with me, India is a poor country. Can not afford to pay for all. So they do what they can.
 
Kshithij Sharma said:
What is your point? If India had joined or not, the PAK-FA would have been just an assembly plane and would lack any meaningful IPR. India wouldn't have been able to make it indigenously ever.

India is not lagging in LCA. Just give Modi some time. Consider the time during UPA as a waste and subtract that while calculation if timeline.

At the end if the day, LCA is Indian and can be mass manufactured at will while it is not the case with PAK-FA. Better to have something of our own than keep begging till eternity.
Click to expand...

Also @Aashish @randomradio

FYI ; we will need a Fifth Gen plane at some point ; it is unavoidable

And IAF's Biggest Problem in coming years is going to be a shortage of Pilots ; not lack of planes

Read this news :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sitharaman also said that in 2017, 12,600 Junior Commissioned Officers and other ranks and 204 officers of Indian Armyopted for voluntary retirement.

While 200 officers from Indian Air Forcetook voluntary retirement, 30 officers and 15 sailors from Indian Navyalso opted for it.

Indian Army saw over 1,000 non-combat casualties in 2017
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you have Limited pilots and they Are flying LCAs ; How can you claim to have a strong Air Force

If you have limited pilots; you should distribute them to Real Force Multipliers
that is if you want Your Air force to be really effective in a 2 front situation

You can have 500 LCAs but do you have so many Pilots

And can you win by having only LCAs in your fleet when China will field
Hundreds of Flankers and J 20s

It will be a Turkey shoot
 
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STEPHEN COHEN said:
Also @Aashish @randomradio

FYI ; we will need a Fifth Gen plane at some point ; it is unavoidable

And IAF's Biggest Problem in coming years is going to be a shortage of Pilots ; not lack of planes

Read this news :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sitharaman also said that in 2017, 12,600 Junior Commissioned Officers and other ranks and 204 officers of Indian Armyopted for voluntary retirement.

While 200 officers from Indian Air Forcetook voluntary retirement, 30 officers and 15 sailors from Indian Navyalso opted for it.

Indian Army saw over 1,000 non-combat casualties in 2017
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you have Limited pilots and they Are flying LCAs ; How can you claim to have a strong Air Force

If you have limited pilots; you should distribute them to Real Force Multipliers
that is if you want Your Air force to be really effective in a 2 front situation

You can have 500 LCAs but do you have so many Pilots

And can you win by having only LCAs in your fleet when China will field
Hundreds of Flankers and J 20s

It will be a Turkey shoot
Click to expand...

FGFA is extremely critical for the IAF.
 
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