IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Aashish said:
Continuing from
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Chatters

F-16 Talks
  • Post the last meeting and as guided by PM and FM, DM NS was supposed to meet LM representatives once again to talk and understand how a way out can be found with the quick evaluation perspective by IAF
  • Post this, the quick meetings requested by LM folks and USA Gov representatives has been refused by DM
  • LM and US govt representatives had tried taking up the matter with PM NM but in a flat out answer it has been conveyed that the whole matter is in the hands of MOD owing to certain new developments as described before.
  • PM NM also conveyed that there is a far better perspective deal given by French side to India for Rafale MII and thus its difficult to prioritise F-16 MII owing to lack of any counter package which is so much strategic in value.
  • OTOH DM NS is maintaining a safe distance as meritorious arguments by IAF with full evidence support their and IN request of Rafale MII first over anything else.
  • Recently Vivek Lal has also joined LM and he is known to have very strong connect in PMO and MOD
  • DM NS is also trying to remain impartial on paper to absolve herself of any charges later owing to IAF refusal, PMO endorsement and some known ppl like Vivek Lal onboard LM for this deal.

HAL Pointers
  • Production rate per year number of HAL has been flagged for many years and now it's in public domain
  • On top, HAL has been accusing IAF of not ordering more Russian Jets recently.
  • In a paper, HAL mentioned making Su35 = 4 squadrons quickly in HAL facilities with limited changes
  • IAF rote back saying acquisition cost versus present MKI will increase by almost 20% for Su-35 on Capex side and maintenance cost will rise up by 50% approx over OPEX side.
  • IAF also rebuked stating instead of HAL suggesting Russian Jets, priority should be focussed on LCA project and meeting squadron numbers first over any other new project.
  • IAF also submitted to MOD a report stating how such low production rates are hurting IAF more over anything else.
  • In a strongly worded message, MOD has told HAL to focus on meeting deadlines over fretting for order books position.

Safranised Kaveri
  • Safransied Kaveri is on a bench in France
  • The progress is defined as
    • M-88 Core insertion and seamless integration.
    • The whole Engine recheck part by part/component by component
    • Ceramic refit in certain key components done.
    • Cooling design for overall and for HP zone + turbine part has been changed.
    • Marked increased planned with these changes from present number of 1700K entry temperature zone
    • A separate overloaded afterburn testing has been initiated with these changes with the planned performance upgrades.
    • Other bench tests planned in coming days
    • A status report has been submitted by French side to MOD / IAF.
Rafale
  • IAF and IN has again pressed MOD for prioritising Rafale deal asap.
  • A series of meetings are planned for this as well.
  • Yesterday Mig29K crash has kind of showed IN frustration and they are going to press for quicker MRCBF selection announcement.
  • This augurs well for Rafale MII.


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What is the thrust rating which is being targeted for SFRANised Kaveri. The TET must attain a figure of nearly 2200K with ceramics and that shud give a huge boost to the thrust of this engine. Kaveri in its original form with 54KN dry thrust for ISA+25*c temp means a sea level ISA condition thrust of about 62KN. So with these new refinements we shud easily look at a thrust level of nearly 72KN dry and 60% thrust boost with afterburner considering the bypass ratio of Kaveri is supposed to be 0.5 compared to 0.3 for M88 and 0.4 for EJ200. can we have some clarity on thrust ratings being planned.
 
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DSpFMpQWAAcRlGf[1].jpg
 
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vstol Jockey said:
What is the thrust rating which is being targeted for SFRANised Kaveri. The TET must attain a figure of nearly 2200K with ceramics and that shud give a huge boost to the thrust of this engine. Kaveri in its original form with 54KN dry thrust for ISA+25*c temp means a sea level ISA condition thrust of about 62KN. So with these new refinements we shud easily look at a thrust level of nearly 72KN dry and 60% thrust boost with afterburner considering the bypass ratio of Kaveri is supposed to be 0.5 compared to 0.3 for M88 and 0.4 for EJ200. can we have some clarity on thrust ratings being planned.
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There is a pretty good chance that the Kaveri variant that the French are helping us with may not exceed 85KN wet.

We may have to wait for a long time before we see the uprated variants.

There may be more immediate interest in finishing development of the dry thrust variant for Project Ghatak.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
What is the thrust rating which is being targeted for SFRANised Kaveri. The TET must attain a figure of nearly 2200K with ceramics and that shud give a huge boost to the thrust of this engine. Kaveri in its original form with 54KN dry thrust for ISA+25*c temp means a sea level ISA condition thrust of about 62KN. So with these new refinements we shud easily look at a thrust level of nearly 72KN dry and 60% thrust boost with afterburner considering the bypass ratio of Kaveri is supposed to be 0.5 compared to 0.3 for M88 and 0.4 for EJ200. can we have some clarity on thrust ratings being planned.
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Phase-1 65/98 and Phase-2 72/110 Kn
 
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smestarz said:
LOLwa, really, what was sourness of the reply and pessimism? or is your reply of the french mindset which is " .. though I dont understand $#iT I have to poke my nose in the middle cos I am French .... " is it?
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On this forum, as on others previously, you showed and show now an indecent french bashing. Even and specially when you understand so few about the subject.
 
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Bon Plan said:
Good news ! (I hope the pilot not injured or dead) : that means indian is surching 57 58 new naval fighters :sneaky:
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You do understand that a carrier has to have same type of plane. So, more Mig29 losses may make India buy more MiG29 with some upgrades and spares to take advantage of mass productions and lower costs. MiG29s have poor maintainability because India is short sighted and doesn't order spares beforehand, not because Russia is a bad partner.

Now, is it a good news?:sneaky:;)
 
Dassault has many advantages, Firstly being that Rafale is under serial production for very long time., and its acceptable to French defence forces where as for Tejas the defence forces are against it, and they are finding flaws with it.. which in some cases are true.
Also the french had and have an engine, avionics are being upgraded etc, But in our case HAL/GTRE failed to make a suitable engine and then we were under embargo for nuclear testing, and later we opt for F-404 engine which came to us with delays.
The Radome for Tejas nose is not produced in India either. So some of the critical parts are not indian nor made in india and hence delay would be there. So importantly we see the planning was bad, and once there was problem there was no Plan B

lcafanboy said:
Have you seen the delivery speed and what they claimed in 2014 WRT LCA Tejas. HAL was supposed to deliver 4 LCA by march 2015 another 8 by March 2016 and 16 LCA thereafter every year and what they delivered is measly 6 LCA till now don't count sp6 as it is still not delivered. They promised first flight of LCA Mk1A by 2017-18 reality work still not started.

Compare it with Dassault which can deliver 33 Rafales which are more complex to make. Same with Lockheed Martin, Boeing and same with Sukhoi corporation.

Earlier they were delivering 16 Sukhoi30 a year but now only 12, why to delay delivery to save reservation quota chaap employees job. National security be damned.
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Kshithij Sharma said:
You do understand that a carrier has to have same type of plane. So, more Mig29 losses may make India buy more MiG29 with some upgrades and spares to take advantage of mass productions and lower costs. MiG29s have poor maintainability because India is short sighted and doesn't order spares beforehand, not because Russia is a bad partner.

Now, is it a good news?:sneaky:;)
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It's a good news for a Rafale M deal.
 
smestarz said:
Dassault has many advantages, Firstly being that Rafale is under serial production for very long time., and its acceptable to French defence forces where as for Tejas the defence forces are against it, and they are finding flaws with it.. which in some cases are true.
Also the french had and have an engine, avionics are being upgraded etc, But in our case HAL/GTRE failed to make a suitable engine and then we were under embargo for nuclear testing, and later we opt for F-404 engine which came to us with delays.
The Radome for Tejas nose is not produced in India either. So some of the critical parts are not indian nor made in india and hence delay would be there. So importantly we see the planning was bad, and once there was problem there was no Plan B
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That means the mistakes should be corrected and more emphasis must be given for indian technology research. All these flaws are rectifiable with Tejas MK2 which is designed for this reason itself.

I really don't understand how can the IAF oppose it. On what grounds? Why would anyone ask for imported planes which are unreliable, unscalable and just to drag the feet with eternal dependency for spare parts and foreign exchange reserves and hence a need to appease everyone? If it is based on whims and fancies of IAF, then those people need to be booted out first.

Next, it took 10 years for France to develop M88 and I don't see a reason why India can't develop Kaveri in next 3-5 years. India already has a dry thrust variant of 55kN. India also has access to foreign engines and can definitely study the engines to get a good idea of its working. India also has its own FADEC for Su30 engines as well as Kaveri. With some research on metallurgy, even the rest should be completed. It is really appalling that entire Kaveri programme was given mere 2100 crores till 2014 (400 million dollars) with lot of it going waste on testing in Russia. I only see a conspiracy from UPA to scuttle the Kaveri and not inefficiency of GTRE. Funding is everything when it comes to research.
 
India was too optimistic about Tejas. and ADA miscalculated badly, remember its ADA who was designing Tejas and not HAL.
Rather it was too many new technologies that were to be developed simultaneously to get the plane for India, The Engine was the biggest drawback and that actually messed all the timeline of Tejas.

So now it might be better to develop the engine and then to uprate it as required. We can try and get ToT for avionics or jointly develop them.
Once the LRIP starts with final version of the plane, it wont be difficult to increase the numbers, We have to try and get about 32 planes a year (2 squadrons) so that it can be paced well,

LCA Mk2, I really wish its twin engine design with smaller engines instead of one big engine, ITs just my wish..


Kshithij Sharma said:
That means the mistakes should be corrected and more emphasis must be given for indian technology research. All these flaws are rectifiable with Tejas MK2 which is designed for this reason itself.

I really don't understand how can the IAF oppose it. On what grounds? Why would anyone ask for imported planes which are unreliable, unscalable and just to drag the feet with eternal dependency for spare parts and foreign exchange reserves and hence a need to appease everyone? If it is based on whims and fancies of IAF, then those people need to be booted out first.

Next, it took 10 years for France to develop M88 and I don't see a reason why India can't develop Kaveri in next 3-5 years. India already has a dry thrust variant of 55kN. India also has access to foreign engines and can definitely study the engines to get a good idea of its working. India also has its own FADEC for Su30 engines as well as Kaveri. With some research on metallurgy, even the rest should be completed. It is really appalling that entire Kaveri programme was given mere 2100 crores till 2014 (400 million dollars) with lot of it going waste on testing in Russia. I only see a conspiracy from UPA to scuttle the Kaveri and not inefficiency of GTRE. Funding is everything when it comes to research.
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