IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

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Nick said:
Again, the question is how badly does IAF want to change the MKI's engines. Because the Russians might not agree to changes them if we go for a new non-Russian radar and AAM.

Compatibility issues aside, the the Russian agreed to NGARM and SAAW because they are Indian, while Brahmos is a JV.

They'd be loosing their biggest customer if they let us get away with it. But if they do decide to c*ckblock us, IAF may decide to carry on with the Al-31 engines regardless of its issues. The recent spares agreement should take care of any problems in that front.
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How would one change the MKI engines??? what are the alternatives? Isn't the Saturn AL series the only operational TVC?

With no other alternatives - It will be the Russian now and far into the future too!
 
GuardianRED said:
How would one change the MKI engines??? what are the alternatives? Isn't the Saturn AL series the only operational TVC?

With no other alternatives - It will be the Russian now and far into the future too!
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That's what i said. If we decide on non-Russian radar and missiles on the MKI, they can refuse the integration of AL-41 to replace the AL-31 engines.

So, IAF may have to decide between upgrading the MKI with non-Russian stuff and continue with the AL-31 or upgrade with Russian/Indian stuff and get the AL-41 engine along with them.
 
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Rakshit said:
Our aim to have strong private sector companies in defence (for aircraft design and manufacturing) like LM/Boeing or MIG/Sukhoi is very much dependent on the steps that we take today.
  1. It is clear that sole dependance on PSUs like HAL is clearly not working
  2. India as of today (using HAL/ADA and other entities) is only trying to re-invent the wheel. This way, we are always going to remain 1 step behind the rest of the world and will always look elsewhere for contemporary aircraft (like 5th generation today).
  3. For example, by the time we crack our heads and manage to develop a 5th Gen aircraft (AMCA), the world will be looking at 6th Gen in the year 2035-40. Naturally, either we will settle with a less contemporary platform then or further delay the AMCA project by pushing in latest available requirements (as has been the case with LCA as well).
  4. OTOH, buying aircrafts from LMs/SAB/Dassault with partnerships with private indian companies like Reliance/TATA/Mahindra, may not be direct solution. This is because, these joint entities would merely be manufacturing companies.
  5. But the key is to have R&D centres and investment, rather than just having joint manufacturing entities. If the R&D is there, one can always invest $$ to setup a manufacturing facility.
  6. Simply passing on the technology to DRDO and PSUs may also not be the best solution, thanks to the way our system works.
  7. The R&D most importantly needs to build on what is available today, rather than reinventing the wheel. For this purpose, we need to have join R&D ventures like BRAHMOS. It is a very good example. We need to have something on these lines.

@Aashish,
  • wanted to know from you. Is DRAL a solution for the future? or should we have Dassault-ADA/DRDO kind of partnerships for building future aircrafts without wasting time and money in developing things already developed?
  • I understand that as part of offsets, for example, SAFRAN is helping GTRE. But my point is, it would be great if we establish joint entities like BRAHMOS, say SAFRAN-GTRE ltd. which not only looks at the requirements as of today, but also tomorrow.
  • Similarly, we can breakdown HAL into sub entities (Helicopters, fixed wing transport, fixed wing fighter etc) and form certain joint entities with firms like MIG/Boeing/LM/Sab where-ever possible and required?
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How nice to be able to rely upon the Indian private sector, with its brilliant record of investment in R&D. Now we can sleep peacefully in our beds at night.
 
Angel Eyes said:
@Aashish Sir is Single Engine deal now in cold storage or is there any progress on it ??
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Wait for some time.. there is a meeting to be held between 15-18th of this month.

A call letter of invitation has gone to LM for a MII project December beginning. Based on American pressure the F16 discussion is scheduled in this meeting. But Indian PMO wish is a helicopter deal under LM MII.. a NMRH instead of F16.

Either way it's a G2G deal proposal as of now for the call letter.. not any tender.
 
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Aashish said:
About OEM point @Pundrick , the Brahmos integration showed we can do all things with MKI in house itself.. so the reliance is only on engine with Russian OEMs.. rest let's wait for some more time.. if Russian side offers good deals , they will win the upgrade or else HAL and. Pvt company together will do the MKI upgrade with Israeli, French components and Israel will be chief consultant for the MKI upgrade.
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Brahmos integration was done by changing particular module of weapon integration software, the whole software-core system is still under Sukhoi's control and engine integration is part of it. So I expect Russian arm-twisting IAF for better deal if other OEMs get more deal out of this program. So as far as weapons of other OEMs are concerned, I don't think IAF will have any issues but the moment we change any core system then we'll have to be dependent on Sukhoi.
 
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bonobashi said:
How nice to be able to rely upon the Indian private sector, with its brilliant record of investment in R&D. Now we can sleep peacefully in our beds at night.
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I feel more insecure and unprotected under the feathers of our beloved creed of babuda,as I have first hand experience about how they operate.
We have a lot of BSNLs, ITI, HMT and Hindustan Motors in our defense industry. They are like gangrene, better get rid of them in time or they will take us down along with them.
It's what happens when babus got assured pay hike every year regardless of output.
 
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Chatters heard

1. We are facing some grim moments. PMO insistence for pro-USA has burned our hands with few of our close allies.

2. We are facing some challenges with UAV fleet with support from Israel facing some teething issues. One of the chief issue being support packages pricing and renewals.

3. LCA Tejas has been given a strict deadline for FOC by Dec 18 failing which there will be a severe curtailment of future orders for HAL and its ecosystem. HAL products will be moved further into the private sector.

4. LCA MK1A iteration is also given a deadline by mid of 2020 failing which Mk1A program will be wound up.

5. These deadlines have been given with extra time to ensure no more additional time is needed to be given.

6. On Rafales following has been the chatter
A IAF has notified that its willing to go public with its requirements of Rafale numbers if needed and also what is happening in this deal background.​
B. IAF has rejected first Gripen E, Mig35, then F18s, then F16s and even F15 SEs​
C,. PMO is hellbent on getting a frontline fleet of USA planes which IAF is steadfastly refusing.​
D. IAF wants an MII Rafale and France/Dassault joint programs for LCA and future AMCA​
E. IAF clearly said it does not want SE planes at the cost of Rafale number curtailment under any circumstances.​
F. Navy has said they can wait for Rafale M orders for IAC1 but want that plane under MRCBF and has recommended the same in file​
G. Support for Rafale M has grown with now clarity of evolving situations and arrival of Chinese specific planes over next decade in east wen west front.​

7. PMO is now looking at a big UAV fleet for all surveillance activities and strikes roles from the USA. There are talks of moving ISTAR like systems to an unmanned fleet concepts as well. Same as Guardian B having new versions for ASW roles

8. IAF has made it clear that it supports Rafale MII for itself and IN is onboard this plan. With this in future, it wishes just Super MKI and LCA if its available on time..

9. Super MKI deal will be green-lighted soon as IAF is looking at Rafale Super MKI combo.

10. The radars, EW, AAMS and network-centric abilities will be given a big boost in Super MKI in order to perform a big role in future missions and communicate freely with Rafales. Primarily limited OEM involvement is planned and a Pvt company will be given a role in this as well.

11. Also, there is a confirmation that a High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite Zephyr is on offer with sufficient know-how for an Indian version. It's not given much weight owing to first USA relationship leaning thinking.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @all others
 
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Shashank said:
I am still wondering what role 36 Rafale would play. Initially it was said that they would be for nuclear strike role, now people say it would be to penetrate Chinese airspace and take on their best planes. 36 is good enough only for show piece as when real battle begins stress would be save these costly rare birds.
Do you mean Rafale is choice for Navy requirement as well ? If navy is looking for 58 planes in next few years. if we add navy requirement with IAF we can get better deal if we chose a common platform.
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You dont chose an aircraft for SFC as good as Rafale with Meteor and best in business armaments to drop dumb nuclear bombs. In fact dropping nukes from an aircraft must go out of option list as we become more confident in our sea based nuclear deterrence.

It makes no sense to acquire Rafale in small number if we have to go for another TE fighter. Operating Rafale need a whole ecosystem and 36 number do not justify the same. At best Navy may go with a separate option. However I wish Navy stick with Mig 29K and then simply move to 5th gen or if IAF go with Rafale, then perhaps have some in small numbers. Any bulk ordering of 4++ will hint of non availability of any 5th gen platform for 15 yrs or more.
 
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Aashish said:
Chatters heard

1. We are facing some grim moments. PMO insistence for pro-USA has burned our hands with few of our close allies.

2. We are facing some challenges with UAV fleet with support from Israel facing some teething issues. One of the chief issue being support packages pricing and renewals.

3. LCA Tejas has been given a strict deadline for FOC by Dec 18 failing which there will be a severe curtailment of future orders for HAL and its ecosystem. HAL products will be moved further into the private sector.

4. LCA MK1A iteration is also given a deadline by mid of 2020 failing which Mk1A program will be wound up.

5. These deadlines have been given with extra time to ensure no more additional time is needed to be given.

6. On Rafales following has been the chatter
A IAF has notified that its willing to go public with its requirements of Rafale numbers if needed and also what is happening in this deal background.​
B. IAF has rejected first Gripen E, Mig35, then F18s, then F16s and even F15 SEs​
C,. PMO is hellbent on getting a frontline fleet of USA planes which IAF is steadfastly refusing.​
D. IAF wants an MII Rafale and France/Dassault joint programs for LCA and future AMCA​
E. IAF clearly said it does not want SE planes at the cost of Rafale number curtailment under any circumstances.​
F. Navy has said they can wait for Rafale M orders for IAC1 but want that plane under MRCBF and has recommended the same in file​
G. Support for Rafale M has grown with now clarity of evolving situations and arrival of Chinese specific planes over next decade in east wen west front.​

7. PMO is now looking at a big UAV fleet for all surveillance activities and strikes roles from the USA. There are talks of moving ISTAR like systems to an unmanned fleet concepts as well. Same as Guardian B having new versions for ASW roles

8. IAF has made it clear that it supports Rafale MII for itself and IN is onboard this plan. With this in future, it wishes just Super MKI and LCA if its available on time..

9. Super MKI deal will be green-lighted soon as IAF is looking at Rafale Super MKI combo.

10. The radars, EW, AAMS and network-centric abilities will be given a big boost in Super MKI in order to perform a big role in future missions and communicate freely with Rafales. Primarily limited OEM involvement is planned and a Pvt company will be given a role in this as well.

11. Also, there is a confirmation that a High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite Zephyr is on offer with sufficient know-how for an Indian version. It's not given much weight owing to first USA relationship leaning thinking.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @all others
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Curtailment in all directions to channelize in US procurement?

Does heron crash have anything to do with lack of support package form Israel?

FOC of LCA by December 18 of 2017?:eek: Ok which private sector are we talking about ?

Mk1A program to be wound up :eek: ? Instead AMCA will be taken up?

Clearly the pressure is on HAL..

On US weapons purchase list UAV fleet will have MII component ?
Or outright purchase? What happened to Naval Choppers proposal ?
 
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Aashish said:
Chatters heard

1. We are facing some grim moments. PMO insistence for pro-USA has burned our hands with few of our close allies.

2. We are facing some challenges with UAV fleet with support from Israel facing some teething issues. One of the chief issue being support packages pricing and renewals.

3. LCA Tejas has been given a strict deadline for FOC by Dec 18 failing which there will be a severe curtailment of future orders for HAL and its ecosystem. HAL products will be moved further into the private sector.

4. LCA MK1A iteration is also given a deadline by mid of 2020 failing which Mk1A program will be wound up.

5. These deadlines have been given with extra time to ensure no more additional time is needed to be given.

6. On Rafales following has been the chatter
A IAF has notified that its willing to go public with its requirements of Rafale numbers if needed and also what is happening in this deal background.​
B. IAF has rejected first Gripen E, Mig35, then F18s, then F16s and even F15 SEs​
C,. PMO is hellbent on getting a frontline fleet of USA planes which IAF is steadfastly refusing.​
D. IAF wants an MII Rafale and France/Dassault joint programs for LCA and future AMCA​
E. IAF clearly said it does not want SE planes at the cost of Rafale number curtailment under any circumstances.​
F. Navy has said they can wait for Rafale M orders for IAC1 but want that plane under MRCBF and has recommended the same in file​
G. Support for Rafale M has grown with now clarity of evolving situations and arrival of Chinese specific planes over next decade in east wen west front.​

7. PMO is now looking at a big UAV fleet for all surveillance activities and strikes roles from the USA. There are talks of moving ISTAR like systems to an unmanned fleet concepts as well. Same as Guardian B having new versions for ASW roles

8. IAF has made it clear that it supports Rafale MII for itself and IN is onboard this plan. With this in future, it wishes just Super MKI and LCA if its available on time..

9. Super MKI deal will be green-lighted soon as IAF is looking at Rafale Super MKI combo.

10. The radars, EW, AAMS and network-centric abilities will be given a big boost in Super MKI in order to perform a big role in future missions and communicate freely with Rafales. Primarily limited OEM involvement is planned and a Pvt company will be given a role in this as well.

11. Also, there is a confirmation that a High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite Zephyr is on offer with sufficient know-how for an Indian version. It's not given much weight owing to first USA relationship leaning thinking.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @all others
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So sucking up to the US was bad. Wasn’t this obvious?

Repeat with me, Modi & Doval knows shit.

And where are the mighty Indians who told me we can do anything without the west and they won’t be able to do shit.
 
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Aashish said:
Chatters heard

1. We are facing some grim moments. PMO insistence for pro-USA has burned our hands with few of our close allies.

2. We are facing some challenges with UAV fleet with support from Israel facing some teething issues. One of the chief issue being support packages pricing and renewals.

3. LCA Tejas has been given a strict deadline for FOC by Dec 18 failing which there will be a severe curtailment of future orders for HAL and its ecosystem. HAL products will be moved further into the private sector.

4. LCA MK1A iteration is also given a deadline by mid of 2020 failing which Mk1A program will be wound up.

5. These deadlines have been given with extra time to ensure no more additional time is needed to be given.

6. On Rafales following has been the chatter
A IAF has notified that its willing to go public with its requirements of Rafale numbers if needed and also what is happening in this deal background.​
B. IAF has rejected first Gripen E, Mig35, then F18s, then F16s and even F15 SEs​
C,. PMO is hellbent on getting a frontline fleet of USA planes which IAF is steadfastly refusing.​
D. IAF wants an MII Rafale and France/Dassault joint programs for LCA and future AMCA​
E. IAF clearly said it does not want SE planes at the cost of Rafale number curtailment under any circumstances.​
F. Navy has said they can wait for Rafale M orders for IAC1 but want that plane under MRCBF and has recommended the same in file​
G. Support for Rafale M has grown with now clarity of evolving situations and arrival of Chinese specific planes over next decade in east wen west front.​

7. PMO is now looking at a big UAV fleet for all surveillance activities and strikes roles from the USA. There are talks of moving ISTAR like systems to an unmanned fleet concepts as well. Same as Guardian B having new versions for ASW roles

8. IAF has made it clear that it supports Rafale MII for itself and IN is onboard this plan. With this in future, it wishes just Super MKI and LCA if its available on time..

9. Super MKI deal will be green-lighted soon as IAF is looking at Rafale Super MKI combo.

10. The radars, EW, AAMS and network-centric abilities will be given a big boost in Super MKI in order to perform a big role in future missions and communicate freely with Rafales. Primarily limited OEM involvement is planned and a Pvt company will be given a role in this as well.

11. Also, there is a confirmation that a High Altitude Pseudo-Satellite Zephyr is on offer with sufficient know-how for an Indian version. It's not given much weight owing to first USA relationship leaning thinking.

@Abingdonboy @halloweene @Hellfire @Parthu @Picdelamirand-oil @Bon Plan @randomradio @Nick @Ankit Kumar @GuardianRED @Ashwin @nair @Milspec @Tarun @all others
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Very good thinking by IAF an IN , with rafales in the game no other foreign planes shall be needed, instead Americans should be compensated with drones and helicopters purchases.
 
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Sathya said:
FOC of LCA by December 18 of 2017?:eek: Ok which private sector are we talking about ?
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It is December 2018.

Sathya said:
Mk1A program to be wound up :eek: ? Instead AMCA will be taken up?
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MK1A is apparently HAL's baby with very minimal involvement of ADA.

AMCA will be developed by ADA and a foreign partner with HAL or some other private company as the production partner.
Besides, there is MK1XX and MK2 also planned. A lot can change in the next 2 years. Depending on which foreign OEM manufactures fighter jets in india, there will be some collaboration on LCA to produce MK1XX.

AMCA currently is no where in the picture. A serious fund allocation will only happen after 2022. We can safely forget about it for sometime now.
 
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