IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[Kane]

Our aim to have strong private sector companies in defence (for aircraft design and manufacturing) like LM/Boeing or MIG/Sukhoi is very much dependent on the steps that we take today.

1. It is clear that sole dependance on PSUs like HAL is clearly not working
2. India as of today (using HAL/ADA and other entities) is only trying to re-invent the wheel. This way, we are always going to remain 1 step behind the rest of the world and will always look elsewhere for contemporary aircraft (like 5th generation today).
3. For example, by the time we crack our heads and manage to develop a 5th Gen aircraft (AMCA), the world will be looking at 6th Gen in the year 2035-40. Naturally, either we will settle with a less contemporary platform then or further delay the AMCA project by pushing in latest available requirements (as has been the case with LCA as well).
4. OTOH, buying aircrafts from LMs/SAB/Dassault with partnerships with private indian companies like Reliance/TATA/Mahindra, may not be direct solution. This is because, these joint entities would merely be manufacturing companies.
5. But the key is to have R&D centres and investment, rather than just having joint manufacturing entities. If the R&D is there, one can always invest $$ to setup a manufacturing facility.
6. Simply passing on the technology to DRDO and PSUs may also not be the best solution, thanks to the way our system works.
7. The R&D most importantly needs to build on what is available today, rather than reinventing the wheel. For this purpose, we need to have join R&D ventures like BRAHMOS. It is a very good example. We need to have something on these lines.

@Aashish,

• wanted to know from you. Is DRAL a solution for the future? or should we have Dassault-ADA/DRDO kind of partnerships for building future aircrafts without wasting time and money in developing things already developed?
• I understand that as part of offsets, for example, SAFRAN is helping GTRE. But my point is, it would be great if we establish joint entities like BRAHMOS, say SAFRAN-GTRE ltd. which not only looks at the requirements as of today, but also tomorrow.
• Similarly, we can breakdown HAL into sub entities (Helicopters, fixed wing transport, fixed wing fighter etc) and form certain joint entities with firms like MIG/Boeing/LM/Sab where-ever possible and required?

 

[Shashank]

Rafale fills that role. There wont be any other acquisition in twin engine category (4.x gen) apart from Rafale or MKI.

I am still wondering what role 36 Rafale would play. Initially it was said that they would be for nuclear strike role, now people say it would be to penetrate Chinese airspace and take on their best planes. 36 is good enough only for show piece as when real battle begins stress would be save these costly rare birds.
Do you mean Rafale is choice for Navy requirement as well ? If navy is looking for 58 planes in next few years. if we add navy requirement with IAF we can get better deal if we chose a common platform.

 

[Grevion]

Its beyond them now. The AESA Radar proposed by Russia had issues. Certain important MKI data has been suspected to be well within adversaries response plan of fighting MKIs and thus the Super Upgrade plan went for drastic changes .

In a way the whole profile of Super MKI will be a very different bird all together.

The good part is technology will come via Pvt sector company to partner with HAL for the upgrade project which is again a good sign.

About F-16 deal, the file was put on freeze upto June 2018 but USA pressure has warranted a meeting for discussion. IF the meeting does not conclude in F16 favour then we are safe to assume that a certain deal like Helo NMRH might go to LM Tata JV and perhaps Tata may be offered a role as the pvt sector company in MKI upgrade.

About India Russia distance, its now business relations where a buyer demands a certain expectations from the product performances and after sales service support with everything built in purchased contract. This is of course not liked by the Russian style of working and our efforts not to get duped ever again by any contractual loopholes (case in hand we still are signing Ka226 deal for last 2 years and even this year we will sign)

Unless again PM Modi does a U Turn and embraces Russia despite of all this, the chances are more or less limited for the Russia participation into future aircraft platforms.. We might see them with AD deals , Tank deals and Navy deals more

So this means we won't order further MKIs beyond the 272s we already have committed to? Not even in the super configuration?

 

[Paro]

So this means we won't order further MKIs beyond the 272s we already have committed to? Not even in the super configuration?

We are going to order more MKIs to reach around 340+ And keep the Nasik plant running. Parikarma is talking about Super MKI upgrade

 

[Grevion]

We are going to order more MKIs to reach around 340+ And keep the Nasik plant running. Parikarma is talking about Super MKI upgrade

Nasik plant will end production around 2019. HAL needs further order or the super upgrade should commence by that time.

 

[Aashish]

Great points @Rakshit

wanted to know from you. Is DRAL a solution for the future? or should we have Dassault-ADA/DRDO kind of partnerships for building future aircrafts without wasting time and money in developing things already developed?

In a way yes, as explained in this thread, we have chosen the Israeli model of implementation for offsets in order to build up our MIC.

DRAL model is a possible solution under it but we have tried to upgrade it further under SP route. Unfortunately SP implementation for a deal has not yet started and hence the extension of the whole proposal is not seen or understood.

Otoh the DRAL proposal and first of Rafale 36 is fully public and we can see the R&D with DRDO, flow of crucial help in indigenous products to complete it for acceptable levels , market the end products for exports, civilian aerospace forte and employment generation.

DRAL itself should fully become part of the MIC ecosystem with the likes of Tata, L&T taking over the roles of providing base for technology collaboration with all OEMs and feeding the ecosystem

Taken from Here : IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

Yes there is no point trying to reinvent the wheel. Rather accessing the same systems via our Ecosystem is more important for the time being and a way to do more joint research to perfect our systems. Beyond this we should chose selected field and do R&D to build further up.

Or else if we want the whole chain from zero to end, we have to pour at least 1% plus dedicated GDP only in R&D for 3 decades to reach to the same level as some other nations have over long time.

I understand that as part of offsets, for example, SAFRAN is helping GTRE. But my point is, it would be great if we establish joint entities like BRAHMOS, say SAFRAN-GTRE ltd. which not only looks at the requirements as of today, but also tomorrow.

In all practicality, with the installation of M88 Core, that has to be the route fwd for a small royalty to be paid for engines manufactured together. Also for future family of development that route is the only feasible solution.

What needs to be taken care is one important aspect is to ensure that our Indian entity holds 51% in it and also the price hike/shock/escalation clause is very carefully worked out.

There is always an apprehension that a revision can lead to huge costing increases and thus it may in turn become a burden for Indian exchequer. Thus this aspect needs to be carefully looked at with a focus on cost of raw materials and cost of production.

This is why i would advocate a new body away from MOD to look at all such MII, JV, Offset, Policy, Audit and Evaluation to bring in a more transparent approach to decision making. So that performers are given their due and laggards are pushed to meet the expectations.

Similarly, we can breakdown HAL into sub entities (Helicopters, fixed wing transport, fixed wing fighter etc) and form certain joint entities with firms like MIG/Boeing/LM/Sab where-ever possible and required?

In a way what you are saying is getting worked out. HAL is basically a cluster of ecosystems in different fields under one Chairman. each specializing for a dedicated line and process. The present organisation chart is this below

Source Corporate Organisation

As you see there are way too many entities working into a whole different departments. The complexes itself can over time become an independent entity all feeding into the main holding entity by the name HAL.

If HAL has to prosper, it must value unlock all these complexes and make them independent in order to see massive growth in accountability, performance and provide synergistic growth to the whole ecosystem including other entities where it can support based on its extensive experience and massive manpower

 

[ashkum2278]

The problem with Indian Armed Forces is that they are like a little child, that has just entered a toy shop and wants all the latest and expensive gizmos. The woes of our armed forces will never be resolved, till the time our systemic inadequacies are not addressed and proper steps are taken towards resolving/eradicating them. Our forces first need to take stock of what they possess and then prioritize their acquisition of new platforms based on


(a) Second we need to formulate a plan to utilize what we have to its optimum limit & arming them to the teeth . Eg. Address ammunition shortage, BMS, night vision sights, upgrading platforms technologically to meet changing requirements, Arming our OPV, Arming our frigates, Destroyers, corvettes to the teeth, equipping our tanks with AC or Environment control systems, Arming our ships with Towed array sonars.

(b) Prioritizing acquisition of new platforms based on first (i) arming old platforms and making them relevant today. (ii) investing in game changers / Force Multipliers such as AWACS, Satellites, Recce Platforms, Air Re-fuller Platforms so that all existing platforms can be used optimally.

(c) Once a & b have been taken care of and all our existing platforms have been upgraded, armed to the teeth next we need to invest, develop and operationalize a state of the art proper Battle Management System and consolidate our Army, Navy, Airforce under one strategic Forces command. So that there is proper synergy & Cocordination between all three forces while undertaking any operation.

(d) Add numbers to the existing force based on how they leverage our minimum credible deterrence.

 

[Nick]

I am still wondering what role 36 Rafale would play. Initially it was said that they would be for nuclear strike role, now people say it would be to penetrate Chinese airspace and take on their best planes. 36 is good enough only for show piece as when real battle begins stress would be save these costly rare birds.
Do you mean Rafale is choice for Navy requirement as well ? If navy is looking for 58 planes in next few years. if we add navy requirement with IAF we can get better deal if we chose a common platform.

36 is just the initial tranche. More Rafales for IAF will be ordered once this whole TE/SE debacle dies down.

The Navy is also very much interested in the Rafale-Ms and wants to combine their's and IAFs orders to kickstart the MII production at DRAL.

Rafales will be the frontline strike elements once they're inducted in numbers, doctrines tweaked and the SOPs have been prepared. They will be used to take out enemy air defense installations in intense Area Denial scenarios to make way for other strike elements and air dominance jets (until we start inducting the 5th gen fighters)

Nuclear role was never envisagioned for them. That's why we're getting the modified Su-30MKIs with the Brahmos.

 

[halloweene]

@halloweene
News from France. I believe few hundred millions will go for a relevant PA2 study of present times..

The Navy defends the idea of a second aircraft carrier
AFP
04/12/2017 |

The Chief of Staff of the Navy, Admiral Christophe Prazuck, defended Monday "the ambition of two aircraft carriers" for France, which would ensure a "permanence to the sea", while the The next Military Programming Act (2019-2025) is under development.

"The ambition of two aircraft carriers, the permanence of an aircraft carrier (at sea, ndr), may be an ambition for our country," he said during a meeting with the Association of defense journalists.

"It is an incomparable military tool and it is a political tool, which allows to train our European partners," said the admiral, recalling that "the Charles de Gaulle went to strike Daech (Arabic acronym of the group Islamic State, ndr) three times, each time he was accompanied by a Belgian frigate, a German, British or Italian frigate ".

The "Charles de Gaulle", only French aircraft carrier, suffered since February in Toulon a vast renovation of 18 months, which will give a second life to this building for the next 20 years. Commissioned in 2001, it had already been immobilized for the first time in 2007.

According to Admiral Prazuck, a dozen naval air pilots will train on a US aircraft carrier in April-May, before a first trip to the sea of Charles de Gaulle "mid-year", which will allow the resumption of the training of the air carrier group. The Navy is counting on "a qualification of the set early 2019" before the return of the aircraft carrier in operation.

"Fifteen or twenty years before the withdrawal of the active service of the Charles de Gaulle, the question of how we will replace it today, with what aircraft, which combat drone?" Argued the head of state -Major Marine, evaluating the cost of studies for the renewal of the aircraft carrier to "a few hundred million" euros.

"The second question is: do we have the ambition to return to the situation we had until 1997, that is, to have an aircraft carrier permanence?" always with one at sea when the other is under renovation, he asked. Until that date, France had two aircraft carriers, the "Foch" and the "Clemenceau".

In the first half of 2018, the military programming law will allocate the resources allocated to the armies from 2019 to 2025 according to their missions. Its development gives rise to intense lobbying by the Navy, the Air Force and the Army in favor of their respective needs.

La Marine défend l'idée d'un second porte-avions

Told you. Still, not done yet.

 

[Aashish]

With focus on Qatar and Eqypt out next target for France and Dassault is INDIA

A follow on 36 order
MRCBF 57
The Bigger MII commitment interlinked to the above

Next year in total will see almost whole French Official Machinery in Action in India and Dassault would do well in case it reads the prevailing situation of IAF+IN needs.

Expecting Rafale M to come to STBF and demonstrate.. Thats the main key.

And second is the Dassault offset implementation - go public with whats the status and give out updates to keep all in loop.

Send 2 crafts of F3 standard to India - tandem seater - Makes sense to start imparting smaller trainings/briefs to the IAF pilot people and work out ways and means to show case the next level of cooperation. As such CDG is on long refit. Sending two crafts makes more sense now then ever.

Delivering the product with first hand experience makes more sense than ever. That time is coming very soon for team Dassault

 

[halloweene]

Dassault can not zend planes as they do not owe any. It would be forces under "soutex" (soutien export) programs. And they'll cry at cost...

 

[Aashish]

Hearing few things

1. Russian AAMs up for replacement will now undergo an open tender selection process.
2. The talks are with multiple parties- winner needs to transfer the seeker and other techs into an Indian derivative.
3. The deal valued very big will see big names including Israeli, MBDA and few more competing over the whole fleet sporting Russian AAMs.
4.On super upgrade, Thales is coming up with a bigger size and higher powered RBE 2 AESA radar for Super MKI
5. DRAL will make parts for Qatari and other new deals and India will try and swing few orders by its way as part of multination efforts.

6. An unconfirmed report says Pakistan bought arms worth around $30 Mn, Primarily talked as small arms. Planners are readying for a new missile launch soon

 

[Nick]

Hearing few things

1. Russian AAMs up for replacement will now undergo an open tender selection process.
2. The talks are with multiple parties- winner needs to transfer the seeker and other techs into an Indian derivative.
3. The deal valued very big will see big names including Israeli, MBDA and few more competing over the whole fleet sporting Russian AAMs.
4.On super upgrade, Thales is coming up with a bigger size and higher powered RBE 2 AESA radar for Super MKI
5. DRAL will make parts for Qatari and other new deals and India will try and swing few orders by its way as part of multination efforts.

6. An unconfirmed report says Pakistan bought arms worth around $30 Mn, Primarily talked as small arms. Planners are readying for a new missile launch soon

Will Russia allow the integration of new BVRAAM and Radar from outside?
If that is what is planned, then I guess Russia will be completely out of the Super Sukhoi upgrade program.

 

[Proud_Indian]

1. Russian AAMs up for replacement will now undergo an open tender selection process.

Wasn't Astra supposed to replace those Russian AAM's?

 

[Pundrick]

Will Russia allow the integration of new BVRAAM and Radar from outside?
If that is what is planned, then I guess Russia will be completely out of the Super Sukhoi upgrade program.

Russia can never be ruled out of Super Sukhoi project, there is engine, radar, software upgrade, etc which will mostly have Russian manufacturers.

 

[Sathya]

Hearing few things

6. An unconfirmed report says Pakistan bought arms worth around $30 Mn, Primarily talked as small arms. Planners are readying for a new missile launch soon

How much would a IRBM cost ?

 

[Nick]

Russia can never be ruled out of Super Sukhoi project, there is engine, radar, software upgrade, etc which will mostly have Russian manufacturers.

Russians need to be involved only for the engines.

With a new radar from another OEM, we don't need Russian support for software changes for adding any new missiles. Almost all the subsystems will come from either Indian, French or Israeli OEMs. Eg- Cockpit displays, HMS, MAWS, Comm suite, ESM/onboard jammer, weapons. Not sure if the mission computers are planned for upgrade.

But all this depends on the possibility that IAF decides to go ahead with the tender for a foreign radar and BVRAAM

 

[Aashish]

@Nick

Since the AAM will be open tender with acceptable platforms, the compatibility is more or less ascertained.. as part of Bus compatibility with radars or with codes.

Let me give an example.. SAAW and NGARM both are approved for station no 8 for MKI only. No other station.. and these are non Russian ... So similar things will be done...

Also once it's released, this will mean that Radar has higher chances of being non Russian..

About OEM point @Pundrick , the Brahmos integration showed we can do all things with MKI in house itself.. so the reliance is only on engine with Russian OEMs.. rest let's wait for some more time.. if Russian side offers good deals , they will win the upgrade or else HAL and. Pvt company together will do the MKI upgrade with Israeli, French components and Israel will be chief consultant for the MKI upgrade.

 

[Sathya]

@Nick

Since the AAM will be open tender with acceptable platforms, the compatibility is more or less ascertained.. as part of Bus compatibility with radars or with codes.

Let me give an example.. SAAW and NGARM both are approved for station no 8 for MKI only. No other station.. and these are non Russian ... So similar things will be done...

Also once it's released, this will mean that Radar has higher chances of being non Russian..

About OEM point @Pundrick , the Brahmos integration showed we can do all things with MKI in house itself.. so the reliance is only on engine with Russian OEMs.. rest let's wait for some more time.. if Russian side offers good deals , they will win the upgrade or else HAL and. Pvt company together will do the MKI upgrade with Israeli, French components and Israel will be chief consultant for the MKI upgrade.

Can we expect the upgrade deal to be finalized in this BJP term or will next government?

 

[Nick]

@Nick

Since the AAM will be open tender with acceptable platforms, the compatibility is more or less ascertained.. as part of Bus compatibility with radars or with codes.

Let me give an example.. SAAW and NGARM both are approved for station no 8 for MKI only. No other station.. and these are non Russian ... So similar things will be done...

Also once it's released, this will mean that Radar has higher chances of being non Russian..

About OEM point @Pundrick , the Brahmos integration showed we can do all things with MKI in house itself.. so the reliance is only on engine with Russian OEMs.. rest let's wait for some more time.. if Russian side offers good deals , they will win the upgrade or else HAL and. Pvt company together will do the MKI upgrade with Israeli, French components and Israel will be chief consultant for the MKI upgrade.

Again, the question is how badly does IAF want to change the MKI's engines. Because the Russians might not agree to changes them if we go for a new non-Russian radar and AAM.

Compatibility issues aside, the the Russian agreed to NGARM and SAAW because they are Indian, while Brahmos is a JV.

They'd be loosing their biggest customer if they let us get away with it. But if they do decide to c*ckblock us, IAF may decide to carry on with the Al-31 engines regardless of its issues. The recent spares agreement should take care of any problems in that front.