IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
- Start date
- Status
Those were very old Mig-29s. The latest Mig-29K is a very highly evolved aircraft.
Israel has F-16I Soufa which has better capabilities than any of the US produced F-16s.
Mirage 2000 is FBW equipped, is slightly heavier with a powerfull engine :
It takes off and land shortly (thanks to FBW)
It has a better T/W ratio (no comosite in the Mirage 3. (M53P2 engine weight the same than ATAR 8K50 with 2,5 tons more thrust.)
It turns far more shorter (FBW)
It has longer range.
"-5" and "-9" model of M2000 can carry 6 medium AAM, against 2 WVR IR missile and a single "medium" AAM.
It's not because they have the same Delta config that they are the same. It's like to say that F6 Hellcat is the same than F4 Wildcat....
The initial question was about bk60.
F16 bk60 is only used by UAE.
It's the sole F16 built from the origin with an AESA radar.
I don't think a single israeli's F16 carry an AESA so far.
You mastered F-35 ? Did you even master Rafale ?
Sometimes having common sense is important, and the lack of it shows in your case..
It seems you are not aware of the power of F-15 are you?
Does figure when you come with such reply which is like "oh,, whats F-15 .... "
Actually the French are so much with their marketing they have lost clue of what they really mean.
Most developed planes have the following in as their sensors.
a) Radar.
b) MWR
c) LWR
d) MAWS
e) IRST
besides ither few systems like jammers etc.
And each manufacture uses the modules and calls them like that with their own brand name like the Russians call OLS-35 which is an IRST.
The French on other hand have the same sensors on Rafale and the fusion of the same they call it as SPECTRA.
SPECTRA is sensor fusion of such sensors and Jammers, EADS (Airbus defence now) call their suite as DASS (Defensive aids sub system) and the French call theirs as SPECTRA.
Most planes have their Defensive sub systems, but the french having difficulty in selling planes are trying to give it fancy names to help sales and apparently, its working..
Swiss eval was long way back dear, get over it. After that you lost many times. In India you lost despite winning (when 126 + 63 becomes 36 you can term it like moral victory if you like)
Its funny. That when the French pilots flying their then upgraded Mirages against MiG-29A say that those are not that good, But then there are two cases, which might need your explaination.
During Kargil, why were the French mirages on strike roles sent with Indian MiG-29 escort to keep the PAF F-16 away, As per the French pilots Mirage 2000 should be capable to handle the PAF F-16 right? IAF operational commanders know the true capability of Mirage 2000 vs F-16 that PAF uses and know that MiG-29 was the only plane in IAF then that could take down those F-16 not the Mirage 2000
Also the pilots who test Tejas are the pilots who operationally flew Mirage 2000 and they say as per their experience that Tejas is performs way better than Mirage 2000.. Then based on this logic, Tejas is way better than Mirage 2000 which is as good as F-16 ? Its what that implies yes?
BTW MiG-29 can pull 9G limit,.. Do check your sources..
Link for you to read just in case you cannot find yours
MiG-29SMT Fulcrum Multirole Fighter Aircraft - Airforce Technology
The aircraft can reach a maximum range of more than 5,000km when fitted with three drop tanks and one single in-flight refuelling. Service ceiling is 17,500m, the maximum G-load is nine, and the maximum M-number is Mach 2.25.
Sometimes having common sense is important, and the lack of it shows in your case..
It seems you are not aware of the power of F-15 are you?
Does figure when you come with such reply which is like "oh,, whats F-15 .... "
Actually the French are so much with their marketing they have lost clue of what they really mean.
Most developed planes have the following in as their sensors.
a) Radar.
b) MWR
c) LWR
d) MAWS
e) IRST
besides ither few systems like jammers etc.
And each manufacture uses the modules and calls them like that with their own brand name like the Russians call OLS-35 which is an IRST.
The French on other hand have the same sensors on Rafale and the fusion of the same they call it as SPECTRA.
SPECTRA is sensor fusion of such sensors and Jammers, EADS (Airbus defence now) call their suite as DASS (Defensive aids sub system) and the French call theirs as SPECTRA.
Most planes have their Defensive sub systems, but the french having difficulty in selling planes are trying to give it fancy names to help sales and apparently, its working..
Swiss eval was long way back dear, get over it. After that you lost many times. In India you lost despite winning (when 126 + 63 becomes 36 you can term it like moral victory if you like)
Its funny. That when the French pilots flying their then upgraded Mirages against MiG-29A say that those are not that good, But then there are two cases, which might need your explaination.
During Kargil, why were the French mirages on strike roles sent with Indian MiG-29 escort to keep the PAF F-16 away, As per the French pilots Mirage 2000 should be capable to handle the PAF F-16 right? IAF operational commanders know the true capability of Mirage 2000 vs F-16 that PAF uses and know that MiG-29 was the only plane in IAF then that could take down those F-16 not the Mirage 2000
Also the pilots who test Tejas are the pilots who operationally flew Mirage 2000 and they say as per their experience that Tejas is performs way better than Mirage 2000.. Then based on this logic, Tejas is way better than Mirage 2000 which is as good as F-16 ? Its what that implies yes?
BTW MiG-29 can pull 9G limit,.. Do check your sources..
Link for you to read just in case you cannot find yours
MiG-29SMT Fulcrum Multirole Fighter Aircraft - Airforce Technology
The aircraft can reach a maximum range of more than 5,000km when fitted with three drop tanks and one single in-flight refuelling. Service ceiling is 17,500m, the maximum G-load is nine, and the maximum M-number is Mach 2.25.
India configure Mirage 2000 more as a ground attack aircraft and use Mig 29 as air superiority.
first sqns that went into ops were mostly Mig-21/23/27/29 sqns. M2K was not even used in initial phases. It was when we needed precision bombing, The M2K were rigged within a couple of weeks to do the job. And with those two heavy LGBs and D/Ts, our great M2K was not able to carry any missie for self defence. So it needed Mig-29 to keep it safe in air.
Even after the Mirage was purchased as MRCA and MiG-29 as Air superiority fighter, ???
So what is the use of MRCA when it has to be escorted by another plane? And one of the thing is,,, SERIOUSLY OUTDATED.
And If I am not wrong then I had read reports that the Mirage 2000 that we had were armed with just guns, we had not taken any Air to air missiles
So what is the use of MRCA when it has to be escorted by another plane? And one of the thing is,,, SERIOUSLY OUTDATED.
And If I am not wrong then I had read reports that the Mirage 2000 that we had were armed with just guns, we had not taken any Air to air missiles
That was when they were acquired and the same IAF which had accepted those junks in 1983 has refused to order LCA in 2009 as it did not have FOC. Imagine the double standards of IAF.
You said SPECTRA is the data fusion of the Rafale. It's not. (please, stop showing your bad knowledge about this french plane).
French are among the world specialists of electronic suites (since the deterrence in the 60th, needed electronic measures to be sure to enter in the USSR air space). And France spent 25% of all the Rafale dev costs in SPECTRA. You can be sure it's a very effective system, not the data fusion you want us to believe.
36 Rafale in India. All french made. And at least another batch will follow. so 72+ made in france. Versus 18 french made and the rest in India. Not so bad.
???? prove it ! first time I read Tejas is better than M2000. M2000 is the bench mark for Tejas.
They baught Scorpene subs but no torpedoes. An indian habit?
Because MRCA Mirage was loaded with ground attack ammunition and was left with no space for A2A. It could well be configured in mix role but then when we had Mig29 to escort, why waste hard points on Mirage?
This is the reason the more i think about it the more its a bad deal for india i feel. Modi screwed up big time here. He let the french have it their way.
Also i understand the prices for india being higher than for the french for fly away. But when you say Make in India is gonna cost 20% less and use this inflated prices as reference tgen they are in reality not costing any less. I am starting to get the point vstol and Sancho were making.
There's some confusion here. It's 36 from French lines. 36 from France and assembly in India. And 100+ made in India.
You forget that there's a lot of offsets involved also.
That's for HAL made Rafales that did not follow Dassault's production practices. For DRAL, it will be 20% cheaper than what we are paying through the GTG.
Libya was not so far away, I do remember for a fact that in order to "protect the civilians" the United nations had endorsed "no fly zone," so as to prevent the Libyan planes from bombing civilians (rebels) and the French were few of the ones enforcing it. Thus the Libyan air force in order to not go against International powers, kept their air assets on ground. What happened next was the French planes then were bombing the regimes air defence and Tanks and this too under the pretext that the tanks could be used to bomb the civilians.
Does Rafale have the range or the warload of F-15K ? simply not, you can keep crying in french to your master to no avail, French are losing everywhere and so desperate that they are now trying to virtually bribe the belgians to buy Rafales,,
The history my friend is that F-15, F-18 and Eurofighter sold more than Rafale, can you change that ?
YES and the Rafales were only interested in chasing the Indian Su-30 MKI,, were they really there to take part in exercise or just to chase Su-30 MKIs French are like Indian national congress, everything that happens they feel the other was to blame for it, Hollande did act like RaGa anyway
Also I did want to add, Earlier in Syria the french were hitting targets with impunity, After the Russians Su-30 SM came into the picture why did French Rafales keep within Iraq only? Maybe they were told to restrict themselves to Iraq ?
BTW this is history too
Part of how earlier Indian govt paid for kickbacks by coming at the last minute and wanting to buy missiles critically and thus willing to buy at high prices which of course include kickbacks... strangely.. was mirage 2000 and scorpene not signed by INC/UPA govt?
Does Rafale have the range or the warload of F-15K ? simply not, you can keep crying in french to your master to no avail, French are losing everywhere and so desperate that they are now trying to virtually bribe the belgians to buy Rafales,,
The history my friend is that F-15, F-18 and Eurofighter sold more than Rafale, can you change that ?
YES and the Rafales were only interested in chasing the Indian Su-30 MKI,, were they really there to take part in exercise or just to chase Su-30 MKIs French are like Indian national congress, everything that happens they feel the other was to blame for it, Hollande did act like RaGa anyway
Also I did want to add, Earlier in Syria the french were hitting targets with impunity, After the Russians Su-30 SM came into the picture why did French Rafales keep within Iraq only? Maybe they were told to restrict themselves to Iraq ?
BTW this is history too
Part of how earlier Indian govt paid for kickbacks by coming at the last minute and wanting to buy missiles critically and thus willing to buy at high prices which of course include kickbacks... strangely.. was mirage 2000 and scorpene not signed by INC/UPA govt?
They baught Scorpene subs but no torpedoes. An indian habit?
Rafale is a light medium plane (9-10T empty). F15 a heavy one (14T), SH18 a high medium one (13T).
Please compare comparable things. But SH18, desite beeing heavier, is less efficient.
If you want to bench mark the F15, use the Mirage 4000.
first news by Smestarz : france is bribing Belgium.....
USA is 7 time bigger than France.
GB+D+SP+Italy are together 4 time bigger than France.
Do you want some help to make a division ?
Do you really mean to say that the size of the nation determines how capable the plane is and its sales?
Canada geographically much bigger than France and Canadian economy is quite good and yet they have no plane to produce or offer.
on the other hand, SAAB has produced and sold more Gripen then France has sold Rafales ..
The logic is very clear there are only two ways that the French try to get the orders, either by intimidation or by bribing. Egypt and Qatar orders seem to be political orders set to ensure that the UNSC member France will veto any move against these countries. Also the advantage is a good plane.
But then when you look at all orders that were lost.. Korea, Switzerland, Brazil to name a few..
Sweden does not intimidate others they simply have a better way of "management"
Canada geographically much bigger than France and Canadian economy is quite good and yet they have no plane to produce or offer.
on the other hand, SAAB has produced and sold more Gripen then France has sold Rafales ..
The logic is very clear there are only two ways that the French try to get the orders, either by intimidation or by bribing. Egypt and Qatar orders seem to be political orders set to ensure that the UNSC member France will veto any move against these countries. Also the advantage is a good plane.
But then when you look at all orders that were lost.. Korea, Switzerland, Brazil to name a few..
Sweden does not intimidate others they simply have a better way of "management"
Indian Air Force not keen on stealth fighter with Russia
A multibillion dollar programme to develop and produce a stealth fighter with Russia appears to be in peril, with the Indian Air Force (IAF) against pursuing it as it believes that the platform lacks the desired stealth characteristics and is inferior to US-made F-35 and F-22 jets, said a senior IAF officer familiar with the project.
He clarified there were no plans to go for a US stealth fighter.
In the IAF’s assessment, the proposed Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, comes with limited capabilities and design issues at an exorbitant price. “Whether the FGFA programme is on or off will be a political decision. The IAF doesn’t think it’s worth pursuing,” the person quoted above said.
The government is finding it hard to reconcile two different points of view on FGFA.
While the IAF wants the project to be abandoned, a high-powered panel appointed by defence ministry to examine different aspects of FGFA recommended in its report last year that India should go ahead with the scheme.
“We are spending more time to see what are the merits and demerits of both arguments. But yes, the FGFA is abhorrently expensive, so we are looking at what we are getting for our money,” said a top defence ministry official familiar with the project.
Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), who headed the ministry’s panel, refused comments on his report or the contrary IAF view on the stealth fighter. “I would like to leave it to the defence ministry,” he said.
India has been in discussions with Russia but has not signed a $4 billion research and development contract for FGFA.
“I was never enthused by it and I would go by what IAF has to say,” said Air Marshal Vinod Patni (retd), head of Centre for Air Power Studies and a former IAF vice chief.
A multibillion dollar programme to develop and produce a stealth fighter with Russia appears to be in peril, with the Indian Air Force (IAF) against pursuing it as it believes that the platform lacks the desired stealth characteristics and is inferior to US-made F-35 and F-22 jets, said a senior IAF officer familiar with the project.
He clarified there were no plans to go for a US stealth fighter.
In the IAF’s assessment, the proposed Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, comes with limited capabilities and design issues at an exorbitant price. “Whether the FGFA programme is on or off will be a political decision. The IAF doesn’t think it’s worth pursuing,” the person quoted above said.
The government is finding it hard to reconcile two different points of view on FGFA.
While the IAF wants the project to be abandoned, a high-powered panel appointed by defence ministry to examine different aspects of FGFA recommended in its report last year that India should go ahead with the scheme.
“We are spending more time to see what are the merits and demerits of both arguments. But yes, the FGFA is abhorrently expensive, so we are looking at what we are getting for our money,” said a top defence ministry official familiar with the project.
Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd), who headed the ministry’s panel, refused comments on his report or the contrary IAF view on the stealth fighter. “I would like to leave it to the defence ministry,” he said.
India has been in discussions with Russia but has not signed a $4 billion research and development contract for FGFA.
“I was never enthused by it and I would go by what IAF has to say,” said Air Marshal Vinod Patni (retd), head of Centre for Air Power Studies and a former IAF vice chief.
- Status