IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
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As of today, 272. Potential for 2 more squadrons still exists, but quite unlikely since the GoI has agreed to buy 36 more Rafales.
Isn't it 320 as per the initial order ? I'm not referring to any additional requirements here . I distinctly remember reading sometime back in PKS's blog that the MoU with the Russians indicated 320 when it was concluded a decade ago with a clause for additional procurements
Don't put too much faith in PKS. The numbers have not changed beyond the 272 we ordered.
The answer could be more than that.
It is true that Israel had traditionally used more French planes, like Mirage III etc, but then the French had changed their policy and they refused to provide spares for Mirage III. The Israelis cannibalised the spares from their existing planes, and used the rest of the Mirage III but also developing their own plane called KFIR which was more or less an Israeli take on Mirage III.
America being committed to Israeli development and security was always giving Israel its top-notch planes, Even the French Mirage III would have been partially subsidised by the Americans. One important thing happened. During the 70s the Israelis were developing Lavi and the Americans were developing their F-16 and Lavi could have been a tough competitor to F-16. The Americans offered Israel cheap and subsidised planes namely F-16 which sort of questioned the cost of developing and producing Lavi whose development and production cost would have exceeded the cost of buying F-16 considering the numbers won't be huge. So the logic suggested shelving the project and buying American planes. This era is when the focus was more on specialised planes, The Israelis had A-4 as their attack planes, F-15 was the air superiority plane and F-16 became the all purpose aircraft. Thus between the three, Israeli air force had covered all the fences and they had no requirement for planes like Rafale. F-15 could outdo Rafale in A2A combat. The F-16 was MRCA with excellent dogfighting ability, why would they need a Rafale when they had a very balanced air force.
Also now the Israelis have developed a lot and there is not a product that the French can offer and Israelis are not developing themselves. In Radars or SAMs or Air to air missiles, the Israelis are at par or better than French.
Israelis are now focusing development of technologies and avionics rather than building an expensive product like planes or ships which will have few users and the cost of development and production would be huge and the failure to market that product would have huge implicatons
It is true that Israel had traditionally used more French planes, like Mirage III etc, but then the French had changed their policy and they refused to provide spares for Mirage III. The Israelis cannibalised the spares from their existing planes, and used the rest of the Mirage III but also developing their own plane called KFIR which was more or less an Israeli take on Mirage III.
America being committed to Israeli development and security was always giving Israel its top-notch planes, Even the French Mirage III would have been partially subsidised by the Americans. One important thing happened. During the 70s the Israelis were developing Lavi and the Americans were developing their F-16 and Lavi could have been a tough competitor to F-16. The Americans offered Israel cheap and subsidised planes namely F-16 which sort of questioned the cost of developing and producing Lavi whose development and production cost would have exceeded the cost of buying F-16 considering the numbers won't be huge. So the logic suggested shelving the project and buying American planes. This era is when the focus was more on specialised planes, The Israelis had A-4 as their attack planes, F-15 was the air superiority plane and F-16 became the all purpose aircraft. Thus between the three, Israeli air force had covered all the fences and they had no requirement for planes like Rafale. F-15 could outdo Rafale in A2A combat. The F-16 was MRCA with excellent dogfighting ability, why would they need a Rafale when they had a very balanced air force.
Also now the Israelis have developed a lot and there is not a product that the French can offer and Israelis are not developing themselves. In Radars or SAMs or Air to air missiles, the Israelis are at par or better than French.
Israelis are now focusing development of technologies and avionics rather than building an expensive product like planes or ships which will have few users and the cost of development and production would be huge and the failure to market that product would have huge implicatons
Dont fully agree with you. You are mixing things
MiG-29 are very much an excellent plane, And in Western sector where PAF can muster F-16 and JF-17, the MiG-29 becomes an excellent choice to face these planes rather than try to take on Chinese Su-30 MKK
Buying 2-4 squadrons of MiG-35 (if the cost is cheap) will have some benefits. Like
a) The procurement cost would be less.
b) Pilots who have flown MiG-29 before would NOT HAVE TO BE RETRAINED to fly this, it would be only a step ahead.
c) We already have spares agreement for MiG-29 and that would more or less be extended for MiG-35
We already have knowledge how to maintain MiG-29 and so it wont be learning a new plane so to speak this does not come with Rafale.
Also IAF is never in habit to replace a plane sooner that its air frame life is over, IAF does tend to over use its planes. Also a point to add is Russia is looking for partners for development of projects, Our past experience has shown that promises have not been kept, but that can also be left to previous congress govt which did not really take the matters seriously. Thus if we ensure that we get what we want it could be a good deal for both India and Russia.
MiG-29 are very much an excellent plane, And in Western sector where PAF can muster F-16 and JF-17, the MiG-29 becomes an excellent choice to face these planes rather than try to take on Chinese Su-30 MKK
Buying 2-4 squadrons of MiG-35 (if the cost is cheap) will have some benefits. Like
a) The procurement cost would be less.
b) Pilots who have flown MiG-29 before would NOT HAVE TO BE RETRAINED to fly this, it would be only a step ahead.
c) We already have spares agreement for MiG-29 and that would more or less be extended for MiG-35
We already have knowledge how to maintain MiG-29 and so it wont be learning a new plane so to speak this does not come with Rafale.
Also IAF is never in habit to replace a plane sooner that its air frame life is over, IAF does tend to over use its planes. Also a point to add is Russia is looking for partners for development of projects, Our past experience has shown that promises have not been kept, but that can also be left to previous congress govt which did not really take the matters seriously. Thus if we ensure that we get what we want it could be a good deal for both India and Russia.
Yup lol, America nipped the Lavi in the bud because if I recall correctly, they predicted and feared that the Israelis would make a plane comparable to the F-16 in terms of capability/performance but better in terms of affordability; severely damaging F-16 sales across the globe. So they bought off the Israelis with subsidized F-16's (and I'm stretching my memory here, but they might have denied certain parts or know how during the making of the Lavi as a form of arm twisting) - and prematurely ended any competition to the F-16 in the process.
Also, in addition to the A-4E Skyhawks, the Israelis also had Phantoms (another American plane) around this time period - which were later phased out by the F-15's and F-16's.
Thats correct, Lavi could have been a good plane, but who would be the users?
The Middle Eastern countries would not have purchased them, Not many of the American allies would have dared. India was with the Soviets so that is no-go too. Lavi would have been a good plane but with mainly Israel as the customer and maybe few other.
Also if you look at the project cost of building Lavi, the cost of development, setting the line, avionics etc. The Americans would have denied them the Missiles and weapons (as that time the Israelis were depending on Americans for the missiles and avionics) and that would have made the planes useless without missiles as the development and production of the missiles would have taken a decade . Thus then the Americans sort of pushed the Israelis to a logical conclusion that F-16 with subsidised rate would be cost effective alternative. The Israelis understanding the repercussions accepted but this ensured that the Israelis started to focus on developing missiles, rifles and other essentials that are required in big numbers and hence the cost of development and production would be justified.
The Middle Eastern countries would not have purchased them, Not many of the American allies would have dared. India was with the Soviets so that is no-go too. Lavi would have been a good plane but with mainly Israel as the customer and maybe few other.
Also if you look at the project cost of building Lavi, the cost of development, setting the line, avionics etc. The Americans would have denied them the Missiles and weapons (as that time the Israelis were depending on Americans for the missiles and avionics) and that would have made the planes useless without missiles as the development and production of the missiles would have taken a decade . Thus then the Americans sort of pushed the Israelis to a logical conclusion that F-16 with subsidised rate would be cost effective alternative. The Israelis understanding the repercussions accepted but this ensured that the Israelis started to focus on developing missiles, rifles and other essentials that are required in big numbers and hence the cost of development and production would be justified.
Times Now
Ahead of Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Moscow, Russia has offered 21 MiG-29s to the Indian Air Force which is in desperate need of fighter planes. The offer has just come and a delegation from Moscow is in town for discussions and the Russians are hoping that the offer can be taken up during the Defence Minister's visit. At this point, the costs and other parts of the deal, including lifetime maintenance costs are yet to be discussed. The offer merits serious discussion, top government sources said, for three major reasons:
1. The MiG-29 is already in service with the IAF, meaning that pilots are familiar with it. The three squadrons of the fighter will be operational for a decade.
2. The IAF is looking at a serious fighter-crunch in the coming years. The IAF is projecting a demand for around 40 fighter squadrons and currently, unless new planes are bought, the numbers could drop from the current 32 to 29 in 2027 and less in the 2030s. This is despite the 36 Rafale fighters that the Modi government has bought and the 6 squadrons of the indigenous Tejas or Light Combat Aircraft that the IAF will have by 2032.
3. While the MiG-29 was first readied in the 1980s, it is still a fighter worth having. And the purchase costs are not likely to be prohibitive.
During the visit, the overhaul of the MiG-29s with the IAF could come up.
Currently, the IAF's fighter strength includes 6 squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguar, three squadrons of the Mig-29, three squadrons of the Mirage-2000, 12 squadrons of the Sukhoi-30MKI, two squadrons of the MiG-27 and 11 squadrons of the various kinds of MiG-21s, including the revamped Bisons. By 2022, however, only one of these MiG-21 squadrons will be left.
Facing India are about 20 squadrons of Pakistani air force fighters and 80+ squadrons of the Chinese fighters, including some top-of-the-line fighters. While the IAF is pitching for 40 plus squadrons, the presence of firepower in the form of Agni, Prithvi and Brahmos missiles and also, airborne warning and control (AWACS) eye-in-the-sky planes, and air to air refueling planes (both are force multipliers), it could manage with fewer, according to experts.
Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman leaves for Russia on April 2. She will go with a new framework agreement suggested by India that could change ties between the two countries. India has suggested a long term agreement between the two countries. India will give Russia a ten-year contract to make spares, upgrade weapon systems but the catch is that the spares and upgradation work should be made in India, this is what India wants.
This will allow Russia to make all weapon system spares whether it is the Sukhoi fighter, the mi helicopter, the Kamov helicopter, the T-90 tank, artillery, submarine and frigate spares in India. It deal could give Russia about 500-crore rupees in business annually. This issue will be discussed during the defence minister's visit.
Several defence deals are up for discussions. India has decided to buy 4 frigates for the Navy. The decision for two bought outright has been taken. Financial discussions for the other two be made in India are going on. There will be discussions on increasing the indigenous content in the Kamov helicopters to be made in India. The price negotiations for the S-400 anti aircraft and anti-missile system are currently going on and would reflect in the meetings.
Ahead of Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman's visit to Moscow, Russia has offered 21 MiG-29s to the Indian Air Force which is in desperate need of fighter planes. The offer has just come and a delegation from Moscow is in town for discussions and the Russians are hoping that the offer can be taken up during the Defence Minister's visit. At this point, the costs and other parts of the deal, including lifetime maintenance costs are yet to be discussed. The offer merits serious discussion, top government sources said, for three major reasons:
1. The MiG-29 is already in service with the IAF, meaning that pilots are familiar with it. The three squadrons of the fighter will be operational for a decade.
2. The IAF is looking at a serious fighter-crunch in the coming years. The IAF is projecting a demand for around 40 fighter squadrons and currently, unless new planes are bought, the numbers could drop from the current 32 to 29 in 2027 and less in the 2030s. This is despite the 36 Rafale fighters that the Modi government has bought and the 6 squadrons of the indigenous Tejas or Light Combat Aircraft that the IAF will have by 2032.
3. While the MiG-29 was first readied in the 1980s, it is still a fighter worth having. And the purchase costs are not likely to be prohibitive.
During the visit, the overhaul of the MiG-29s with the IAF could come up.
Currently, the IAF's fighter strength includes 6 squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguar, three squadrons of the Mig-29, three squadrons of the Mirage-2000, 12 squadrons of the Sukhoi-30MKI, two squadrons of the MiG-27 and 11 squadrons of the various kinds of MiG-21s, including the revamped Bisons. By 2022, however, only one of these MiG-21 squadrons will be left.
Facing India are about 20 squadrons of Pakistani air force fighters and 80+ squadrons of the Chinese fighters, including some top-of-the-line fighters. While the IAF is pitching for 40 plus squadrons, the presence of firepower in the form of Agni, Prithvi and Brahmos missiles and also, airborne warning and control (AWACS) eye-in-the-sky planes, and air to air refueling planes (both are force multipliers), it could manage with fewer, according to experts.
Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman leaves for Russia on April 2. She will go with a new framework agreement suggested by India that could change ties between the two countries. India has suggested a long term agreement between the two countries. India will give Russia a ten-year contract to make spares, upgrade weapon systems but the catch is that the spares and upgradation work should be made in India, this is what India wants.
This will allow Russia to make all weapon system spares whether it is the Sukhoi fighter, the mi helicopter, the Kamov helicopter, the T-90 tank, artillery, submarine and frigate spares in India. It deal could give Russia about 500-crore rupees in business annually. This issue will be discussed during the defence minister's visit.
Several defence deals are up for discussions. India has decided to buy 4 frigates for the Navy. The decision for two bought outright has been taken. Financial discussions for the other two be made in India are going on. There will be discussions on increasing the indigenous content in the Kamov helicopters to be made in India. The price negotiations for the S-400 anti aircraft and anti-missile system are currently going on and would reflect in the meetings.
Sitharaman eyeing S-400, FGFA deals during Russia visit
Apart from S-400, Sitharaman is also expected to discuss the progress of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which has been hanging in balance for almost a decade. With the depleting combat fleet of IAF and Pakistan showing interest in procuring the advanced Chinese J-20 stealth fighters, FGFA project with Russia has become crucial.
"FGFA project was stuck for years, but only in February last year, talks were revived during Manohar Parrikar's visit to Moscow. India is eyeing for an advanced version of Russian PAK-FA T-50 aircraft and the upcoming visit by defence minister will give further impetus to the project," official added.
Apart from S-400, Sitharaman is also expected to discuss the progress of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project, which has been hanging in balance for almost a decade. With the depleting combat fleet of IAF and Pakistan showing interest in procuring the advanced Chinese J-20 stealth fighters, FGFA project with Russia has become crucial.
"FGFA project was stuck for years, but only in February last year, talks were revived during Manohar Parrikar's visit to Moscow. India is eyeing for an advanced version of Russian PAK-FA T-50 aircraft and the upcoming visit by defence minister will give further impetus to the project," official added.
That's not what the South Korean evaluators found during their F-X phase 1 evaluations, where the Rafale competed in its LF1 standard (restricted to air-to-air operations, no SPECTRA yet) against the much more mature F-15K, and the Rafale got the highest mark in the technical evaluation. The F-15 won in the end for political and operational reasons, not because it performed better.
F-15 is 70s plane and yet gives run for money for most planes.
F-15 is more stronger than Rafale, more faster, higher ceiling, more powerful engine, better combat radius and thought it started its production more than a decade earlier than Rafale it outperforms Rafale.
Even in present form (the flying planes and available now) the present version of F-15 is more advanced and capable than Rafale present variant F3R.
Also the version that Koreans use F-15 Slam eagle, it can carry more warload 10.5-13 tons against Rafale with top warload of 9.5 tons and F-15K can do so at much longer ranges...
Now would I hear about the weight classes??? LOL, a featherweight boxer should not challenge Heavy weight boxers.
F-15 is more stronger than Rafale, more faster, higher ceiling, more powerful engine, better combat radius and thought it started its production more than a decade earlier than Rafale it outperforms Rafale.
Even in present form (the flying planes and available now) the present version of F-15 is more advanced and capable than Rafale present variant F3R.
Also the version that Koreans use F-15 Slam eagle, it can carry more warload 10.5-13 tons against Rafale with top warload of 9.5 tons and F-15K can do so at much longer ranges...
Now would I hear about the weight classes??? LOL, a featherweight boxer should not challenge Heavy weight boxers.
Very surprisingly, you take Rafale to red flag and always end up being a part of forces defending and not attacking. You waste your time more in sniffing thaan in actual combat. What are you scared of? Commit your bitch to fight and let us see what the wild dogs will do to her.
Exactly. Rafale had to bury its tail under its legs in Libya and they want to compare it with an aircraft which has over 100:0 combat ratio. Bring Rafale to fight once and only after that French have the right to call other aircraft inferior.
I am sorry to inform you that your need to bash the French does not give you the superpower to rewind time and change actual facts. Rafale outperformed the F-15 in the South Korean F-X evaluations. You can fanboy the F-15 all you want, the Koreans (who had absolutely no reason to be biased towards the French aircraft) found what they found.
In Libya, the Rafale was first to enter the airspace, and the first to kill ground targets; while all other aircraft waited for Tomahawks to get rid of air defenses. This, too, is a fact that you cannot erase from history.
Spout all the bullshit you want, facts will remain unchanged.
In Libya, the Rafale was first to enter the airspace, and the first to kill ground targets; while all other aircraft waited for Tomahawks to get rid of air defenses. This, too, is a fact that you cannot erase from history.
Spout all the bullshit you want, facts will remain unchanged.
Not correct. In Red Flag 2008, when India participated, Rafales were on the attacking side alongside the MKIs.
It's not what the french pilots said about M2000 vs Mig29, because they trained intensivey against the ex RDA ones.
The only surprise came from the helmet designated short range IR missile. Never the agility. Mig29 is very powerfull but limited to 7G, and very short ranged.
What is (or what are) the canard delta you flyed?
You remembered me a old history, when spanish pilots first frained against Mirage 2000..... They thaught it was just a evolved version of Mirage 3. It was a hard pain to their a** ! You are making same mistake between Mirage 2000 and Rafale !
You are pulling our leg Bro.
NO.
Spectra is the electronic protection system of the Rafale.
Sensor fusion is another thing. It use all the datas available to give the pilot the better and clearer view possible of the battle field, with the less false tracks possible.
To show on the same screen a radar view and an optical view is a first step sensor fusion ! (maybe the case of EF or Gripen... ) But as you can see in the swiss eval, the Rafale sensor fusion was the best of all the containders.
Stop saying nonsense. Even a 10 years boy understand that.
Your account was hacked by Smestarz ?
You were far well aware before....
1) 240 €million is not the cost of the sole plane.
2) what is the much better design for just $35 million? J31? LOL
Please don't speak us of your LSA or MSA....
Absolute BS.
Israel don't use bk60 F16 !!!
LAST FRENCH PLANE PURCHASED BY ISRAEL IS MIRAGE 3 ! Nearly 50 years ago !!!!
Since De Gaulle decided an embargo on the Mirage 5, Israel use only US plane (at a discount price thans to the US military help of some billion each year).
ARE YOU SICK ?
You never are so good when you speak of things you don't mastered.....
LOOOOOL
Planes being old don't mean much unless they are stealth. Sure there's slightly more aerodynamic/material designs that give benefits, but what makes a plane tick is the engine, the avionics, radar etc. Rafale is superior to the F-15, but not because it's an older plane. I'm pretty sure a brand new F-15 is very comparable to the typhoon/rafale.
Why? Because the fundamental design was solid ergo upgrades are easy.
Why? Because the fundamental design was solid ergo upgrades are easy.
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