IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[smestarz]

MiG-29/35 are good designs very aerodynamic and excellent maneuverability but what they lacked was mainly efficient engines, cutting-edge avionics and regular upgrades of avionics. Since MiG-29 was designed, there were few upgrades and the biggest upgrade package was MiG-29 UPG upgrading them to MiG-29 SMT. The other being the addition of thrust vectoring nozzles and few upgrades to make it MiG-29 OVT or MiG-35. On other hand Rafale is constantly being upgraded ..F2, F3 F3R F3+ F4 etc The Russian planes are rugged and can withstand bad storage conditions. If you had been to Goa Airport you can see them standing in the open. Whereas M2K in IAF service were at Gwalior and that too with air-conditioned hangars.

MiG-29 came much after M2K and the arrival of Su-27 and MiG-29 did surprise the Europeans who then felt the need to design twin-engine fighter aircraft to face this Russian threat. We can see this from the fact that the French were producing Rafale before the Mirage 2000 line was closed. Even now Mirage 2000 are flying as they are cheap to fly and use as compared to Rafale, Thus in a way, the Arrival of twin-engined jets in Russia put the urgency in building their own twin-engine plane and thus now the French are trying to get the best they can from Mirage 2000 as it would not be economical to retire these planes very early.

Rafale is pathetic when compared to upgraded Mig-29/35. the very early Mig-29s were able to defeat M2K in combat comprehensively. Now we have an iteration of M2K called Rafale challenging them.
As per my knowledge of aerodynamics and fighter aircraft designs based on my experience as a fighter pilot, no canard design can ever defeat a conventional design in air combat provided the the TWR is over 1:1.1.

 

[smestarz]

SPECTRA is sensor fusion of the various avionics like Radar, RWRs, LWRs etc and to report it on screen for the pilot to have the information to the pilot in a way he can best use it. Most planes now have sensor fusion, like F-35, Gripen, Eurofighter, but since the French were not getting orders they tried to put the spin on anything to try and make sales. Hence the term "OMNI ROLE" which is same as multi-role but Dassault want to insist on this term for their plane.

So you mean to say that India's NINE Billion Dollars have gone down the drain

What about things like Spectra ; Sensor Fusion ; RBE2 AESA ; And Meteor

 

[randomradio]

It is my information from IN that MIg-29Ks have better TWR than Rafale and can defeat it in sustained combat anyday. Rafle does have more capabilities but as a pure fighter, it is not as good as Mig-29K or Mig-29/35 upgraded with Kaveri. Please recall my earlier posts wherein I had stated that France will delay the delivery of upgraded Kaveri to ensure that Mig-29/35 does not become a challenger to Rafale.

The Mig-29/35 has no chance in the IAF. But I do support more Mig-29s for the IN, since they can't operate anything else without shelling out big money.

Plus, there's no way the Mig-29K is better than the Rafale. It wasn't even shortlisted in MMRCA. It is completely beaten in range, payload, performance, service life, maintenance etc.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Replace 60 year old planes with 30 year old ones . Where's the logic in that ?

And we are paying Euro240m for a 35 year old design called Rafale compared to a much better design which costs us just USd35m a piece.

So you mean to say that India's NINE Billion Dollars have gone down the drain
Not just down the drain but also as good as shot out of sky with many lives of pilots lost.

Plus, there's no way the Mig-29K is better than the Rafale. It wasn't even shortlisted in MMRCA. It is completely beaten in range, payload, performance, service life, maintenance etc.

Have you chatted with IN fighter pilots and what they want from Mig-29Ks compared to Rafale? IN is least interested in Rafale. IAF wants it for its ability to fly at low levels in automode. IN does not need this ability as we have flat sea surface to fly on. Sensor fusion is a myth like God. No one has seen one and no one has experienced one but we all are sure of him.

What about things like Spectra ; Sensor Fusion ; RBE2 AESA ; And Meteor

Absolute bullshit. Rafale even today has problems taking on F-16I Blk60 of Israeli AF which does not have so called overhyped sensor fusion. Let me see one French member explain as to why Isrealis have refused to buy this aircraft while being one of the oldest operators of French aircraft.

 

[_Anonymous_]

And we are paying Euro240m for a 35 year old design called Rafale compared to a much better design which costs us just USd35m a piece.

Which design are we talking about here ?

 

[vstol Jockey]

The Mig-29/35 has no chance in the IAF. But I do support more Mig-29s for the IN, since they can't operate anything else without shelling out big money.

Plus, there's no way the Mig-29K is better than the Rafale. It wasn't even shortlisted in MMRCA. It is completely beaten in range, payload, performance, service life, maintenance etc.

Plus, there's no way the Mig-29K is better than the Rafale. It wasn't even shortlisted in MMRCA. It is completely beaten in range, payload, performance, service life, maintenance etc.

Have you chatted with IN fighter pilots and what they want from Mig-29Ks compared to Rafale? IN is least interested in Rafale. IAF wants it for its ability to fly at low levels in automode. IN does not need this ability as we have flat sea surface to fly on. Sensor fusion is a myth like God. No one has seen one and no one has experienced one but we all are sure of him.

What about things like Spectra ; Sensor Fusion ; RBE2 AESA ; And Meteor[/QUOTE]
Absolute bullshit. Rafale even today has problems taking on F-16I Blk60 of Israeli AF which does not have so called overhyped sensor fusion. Let me see one French member explain as to why Isrealis have refused to buy this aircraft while being one of the oldest operators of French aircraft.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Which design are we talking about here ?

First flight of Rafale was in 1984. So it is nearly 35 yr old design and incapable of beating Mig-29K in range and capabilities.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The Mig-29/35 has no chance in the IAF.

what about falling squadron numbers

 

[randomradio]

Absolute bullshit. Rafale even today has problems taking on F-16I Blk60 of Israeli AF which does not have so called overhyped sensor fusion. Let me see one French member explain as to why Isrealis have refused to buy this aircraft while being one of the oldest operators of French aircraft.

The Israelis get free aircraft if they buy American. Why will the Americans pay for French stuff?

Have you chatted with IN fighter pilots and what they want from Mig-29Ks compared to Rafale? IN is least interested in Rafale. IAF wants it for its ability to fly at low levels in automode. IN does not need this ability as we have flat sea surface to fly on.

Even I think the IN doesn't need Rafale. You have already seen my view about why IN should buy more Mig-29Ks for now and wait for a better aircraft so many times.

But the IAF will not go for Mig-29 or Mig-35 unless they get 150-250 Rafales first.

Sensor fusion is a myth like God. No one has seen one and no one has experienced one but we all are sure of him.

I think you are referring to active cancellation.

 

[randomradio]

what about falling squadron numbers

IAF needs 550 4.5th gen jets for now. That's going to be fulfilled by 324 LCAs and 150-250 Rafales. HAL will increase production capacity of LCA to 27 jets per year. And Rafale will also come in at the rate of a squadron a year.

As long as Rafales happen, the IAF has no need for any other foreign jet of this class.

In fact, the Mig-35 won't even get shortlisted, so there's no point talking about it. I see a repeat of MMRCA again with only Rafale and Typhoon being shortlisted.

 

[_Anonymous_]

IAF needs 550 4.5th gen jets for now. That's going to be fulfilled by 324 LCAs and 150-250 Rafales. HAL will increase production capacity of LCA to 27 jets per year. And Rafale will also come in at the rate of a squadron a year.

As long as Rafales happen, the IAF has no need for any other foreign jet of this class.

In fact, the Mig-35 won't even get shortlisted, so there's no point talking about it. I see a repeat of MMRCA again with only Rafale and Typhoon being shortlisted.

Now is extremely subjective . Those nos you're taking about will materialize around 2035 timelines . Plus you've forgotten the Super Sukhoi upgrades which would bring them to 4.5+ gen levels( again a question mark on the nos due for the upgrade and the timelines ) . The billion or trillion dollar question is what happens in the interim when we bid all those MiG 21 & 27's goodbye by 2022. Where are those nos going to come from in such a short span of time . Or is the IAF expected to survive on a wing and a prayer in the event of a conflict .

 

[A Person]

Absolute bullshit. Rafale even today has problems taking on F-16I Blk60 of Israeli AF which does not have so called overhyped sensor fusion.

Nice of you to warn beforehand of what you're gonna say.

Let me see one French member explain as to why Isrealis have refused to buy this aircraft while being one of the oldest operators of French aircraft.

France has never tried to sell Rafale to the Israeli, so the Israeli cannot have refused to buy it.

Israel gets military aid from the USA in the form of store credits -- they can only spend this free money on US stuff. US military aid to Israel is really a subsidy to Boeing and LockMart.

Furthermore, France stopped selling weapons to Israel since the Six Day War.

 

[randomradio]

Now is extremely subjective . Those nos you're taking about will materialize around 2035 timelines . Plus you've forgotten the Super Sukhoi upgrades which would bring them to 4.5+ gen levels( again a question mark on the nos due for the upgrade and the timelines ) . The billion or trillion dollar question is what happens in the interim when we bid all those MiG 21 & 27's goodbye by 2022. Where are those nos going to come from in such a short span of time . Or is the IAF expected to survive on a wing and a prayer in the event of a conflict .

From now until 2025 or so, we are royally screwed when it comes to maintaining numbers. Nothing can be done about it. However IAF will be much stronger in 2025 than it is today.

By 2025, we will see the exit of 250 jets while at best we will add about 200 jets, or 150 jets if the LCA is delayed. So we will be short of 50-100 jets at that point compared to where we are today, and will still have a shortage of 8 more squadrons beyond that. But after 2025, all the jets will start coming in in large numbers.

 

[_Anonymous_]

From now until 2025 or so, we are royally screwed when it comes to maintaining numbers. Nothing can be done about it. However IAF will be much stronger in 2025 than it is today.

By 2025, we will see the exit of 250 jets while at best we will add about 200 jets, or 150 jets if the LCA is delayed. So we will be short of 50-100 jets at that point compared to where we are today, and will still have a shortage of 8 more squadrons beyond that. But after 2025, all the jets will start coming in in large numbers.

That's why it's imperative we accept the Russian offer of 2-4 MiG 29 squadrons . They're cheap and they'd come quickly .

 

[RATHORE]

Let me see one French member explain as to why Isrealis have refused to buy this aircraft while being one of the oldest operators of French aircraft.

Because the Israelis had F-15's and F-16's already, and the next aircraft they planned to induct (or transition to) was the F-35I

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

From now until 2025 or so, we are royally screwed when it comes to maintaining numbers. Nothing can be done about it. However IAF will be much stronger in 2025 than it is today.

By 2025, we will see the exit of 250 jets while at best we will add about 200 jets, or 150 jets if the LCA is delayed. So we will be short of 50-100 jets at that point compared to where we are today, and will still have a shortage of 8 more squadrons beyond that. But after 2025, all the jets will start coming in in large numbers.

IAF will not make its acquistion plans centred around the LCA ; coming on time

If Mk 1 A is delayed ; then there is no hope for MK 2 coming on time

Mig 29 can easily replace the MiG 21 and the Mig 27

I am sure they must have already opened talks with Russia for at least 2 squadrons ; if not more

There is every chance of the serial production of the Mk 1 A getting delayed till 2020

 

[randomradio]

That's why it's imperative we accept the Russian offer of 2-4 MiG 29 squadrons . They're cheap and they'd come quickly .

The IAF's Mig-29s are on their last legs. The airframes have 1000 hours extra life left and it will be over by 2027. So we need to have them replaced with either PAK FA or FGFA between 2027 and 2030. So if we buy 2-4 squadrons of Mig-35s, we will have a small amount of pretty useless aircraft that will serve no real purpose. Mig-35 for the IAF would have been realistic if our current Mig-29s had another 20 years in them.

And then, we aren't even talking about the number of problems that will creep up since it's basically a new development. The Mig-35s are barely in LSP today. They have to get the LSPs delivered to the RuAF first. Then SPs in decent numbers to take care of teething problems in Russia. And only after that can IAF buy some. But then, it takes 3 years to deliver. By then both LCA and Rafale lines in India will be going full steam.

You have to consider the delivery times too. You can only imagine when we will raise a request, get clearance, start negotiations, sign a contract and then begin taking deliveries. If the Mig-35s are delivered from 2023 or 2024, very optimistic dates, they will still take about 5 years or more to deliver 4 squadrons. Which means we will be taking delivery of the Mig-35 even in 2030. So it may be cheap, but it's not gonna come quick.

Whatever we are doing right now is sufficient. We will start receiving large number of aircraft after 2025. Save for buying 2 more squadrons of MKI and 2 more squadrons of Rafale, there are no exclusive options that the IAF can exercise to get more aircraft before 2025.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The IAF's Mig-29s are on their last legs. The airframes have 1000 hours extra life left and it will be over by 2027. So we need to have them replaced with either PAK FA or FGFA between 2027 and 2030. So if we buy 2-4 squadrons of Mig-35s, we will have a small amount of pretty useless aircraft that will serve no real purpose. Mig-35 for the IAF would have been realistic if our current Mig-29s had another 20 years in them.

And then, we aren't even talking about the number of problems that will creep up since it's basically a new development. The Mig-35s are barely in LSP today. They have to get the LSPs delivered to the RuAF first. Then SPs in decent numbers to take care of teething problems in Russia. And only after that can IAF buy some. But then, it takes 3 years to deliver. By then both LCA and Rafale lines in India will be going full steam.

You have to consider the delivery times too. You can only imagine when we will raise a request, get clearance, start negotiations, sign a contract and then begin taking deliveries. If the Mig-35s are delivered from 2023 or 2024, very optimistic dates, they will still take about 5 years or more to deliver 4 squadrons. Which means we will be taking delivery of the Mig-35 even in 2030. So it may be cheap, but it's not gonna come quick.

Whatever we are doing right now is sufficient. We will start receiving large number of aircraft after 2025. Save for buying 2 more squadrons of MKI and 2 more squadrons of Rafale, there are no exclusive options that the IAF can exercise to get more aircraft before 2025.

You're completely mistaken. I never referred to the MiG 35 . I was referring to the MiG 29.

 

[randomradio]

IAF will not make its acquistion plans centred around the LCA ; coming on time

If Mk 1 A is delayed ; then there is no hope for MK 2 coming on time

Mig 29 can easily replace the MiG 21 and the Mig 27

I am sure they must have already opened talks with Russia for at least 2 squadrons ; if not more

There is every chance of the serial production of the Mk 1 A getting delayed till 2020

Mk1A and Mk2 are independent. And Mk1A will not get delayed. Or at least not get delayed to ridiculous lengths like the Mk1 was. And the production numbers will be large enough to take care of any delays. HAL plans to finish delivery in 4 years. Metal cutting is expected to begin this year. So first delivery should happen in 2021 and final delivery by 2025. Add two years for any delays if you want to, even 2027 is a quick date. However it is very unlikely for major delays to happen once production begins. HAL is at least that capable.

If Mk2 doesn't come on time, then the IAF will exercise options for more Mk1A. They can easily order 3 more squadrons in place of the Mk2.

Why buy two squadrons of Mig-35s when we can buy two squadrons of MKI? Read my previous post.

 

[randomradio]

You're completely mistaken. I never referred to the MiG 35 . I was referring to the MiG 29.

The current IAF version is no longer in production. All the versions today are the Mig-29M. And Mig-35 is just a more modernized version of the Mig-29M.

With the IAF Mig-29s being phased out, it makes no sense to buy more of them. If we didn't exercise this option 10 years ago when we could, then we are not going to do it today.

Even with the Mig-29M, it will still take years to get clearance, negotiations etc before we take delivery. Hell, even the MKI will take 5 years if we start the process today. And the MKI doesn't have to go through the full bureaucratic circus the Mig-29 will have to go through.