India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Hellfire]

I doubt 300 number was ever an official number.

As per networks "sources" ....

Actually GoI and IAF said BDA is being done and once a correct picture is available, will be made public if required.

 

[Hellfire]

I really don't get why when a completely new door has been opened and the chamber has barely been explored....so many want to open even more doors first thing.

The zone we are in can serve us quite well (given it exposes a new floor below nuclear threshold), let us make use of it to maximum extent first....before we go looking for the next level of trouble.

The problem is that many of our members here are falling prey to Pakistani propaganda (being polite, lets be honest - lies) forgetting that this is the very same armed forces that in 1999 denied their own dead an honourable homage for their valour and supreme sacrifice for their nation. Something akin to what they are doing for the F-16 pilot now, or do for their men who lay down their lives in LC for their nation.

No greater disservice can be done by the nation other than disregarding and hiding the supreme sacrifices of those who are supposed to be treated as their heroes.

To compound this problem, members here feel that they deserve an explanation

Heck, we do not give explanation to our soldiers, but they somehow feel military operations need to be explained to them

25 years back an operation was undertaken, something that averted a major crisis in J&K then, yet no one, not one single soul, will come to know of it. Hardly anyone in the Armed Forces knows of it (I should revise to none know it as those who knew, either have passed away or are retired).

Not everything needs to be told.

 

[Guynextdoor]

I really don't get why when a completely new door has been opened and the chamber has barely been explored....so many want to open even more doors first thing.

The zone we are in can serve us quite well (given it exposes a new floor below nuclear threshold), let us make use of it to maximum extent first....before we go looking for the next level of trouble.

You know it’s strange. While paf claims that they used jf 17 to shoot down the bison, they did not clarify what missile they used.

 

[RATHORE]

I think you will find that lot of matrix will change and then one fine day, things will again escalate.

Our mechanized formations 'remain poised to proactively defend the nation against the evil designs of supporters of terror'. Man, whatever you make of that

He said "proactively" ??!!?? I only read "poised to defend."

 

[RATHORE]

25 years back an operation was undertaken, something that averted a major crisis in J&K then, yet no one, not one single soul, will come to know of it. Hardly anyone in the Armed Forces knows of it (I should revise to none know it as those who knew, either have passed away or are retired).

Not everything needs to be told.

Sometimes sensitive things are written/hinted at or partially declassified much later on. Do you think that could happen at some point in the future with the op you're talking about?

Like always you've seriously piqued my interest and left me hanging.

 

[Shajida Khan]

The problem is that many of our members here are falling prey to Pakistani propaganda (being polite, lets be honest - lies) forgetting that this is the very same armed forces that in 1999 denied their own dead an honourable homage for their valour and supreme sacrifice for their nation.

They have lied through their teeth even this time too..

1. F-16 has not been used / no American weapons used.
2. Two then three pilots landed in PoJ&K.

But then our government has been too little on any statements too :
1. No indication of damage caused by bombs.
2. No indication of which plane was shot. I doubt there is an official statement on type of Pakistani aircraft been shot.

 

[Shajida Khan]

To compound this problem, members here feel that they deserve an explanation

Its actually rather simple. Indians --mostly-- would rather hear from our own forces than from enemies. But both forces and government has been silent and leaving it to the Pakistani to set the narrative. Nature hates vacuum. Its like when parents don't tell kids about some facts, the neighbors tell them distorted facts or facts mixed with lies or plain lies.


BTW, do you believe that this round is over now?

 

[randomradio]

She's entitled to her opinion, you to yours & me to mine. That doesn't address the question. Because a question deserves an answer not an opinion. Opinions are usually legalistic in nature. Answers aren't. That's the difference between posing an opinion and answering a question raised.

The IF released a bland statement where in they stated they had targetted structures housing JeM terrorists. What was the intention? To target structures or the people with in? Why can't they be quantified? If we lost 40, aren't we entitled to kill at least 40 of these scum? Why the coyness in disclosure?

The GoI thru the FS confirmed that this was pre emptive action against terrorists training to be suicide bombers, who were killed in large nos .The said facility was said to house up to 300 people. I suspect out of this arose speculation that up to 300 terrorists were killed. S. Jain of NDTV in the video I've Uploaded earlier has gone on record to state that govt sources had unofficially claimed such nos.

The program itself speculates that we may never know the true figure.

Now we have a minister of the BJP in the central government stating that the purpose of the entire exercise wasn't to have human casualties but to demonstrate to the Pakistanis that we can target such camps. Well, guess what? The Pakistanis reciprocated the gesture the very next day and how?

So whom do we believe?


Airstrike inflicted less damage in Pak, hints Ahluwalia

There is no point in speculating and trying to get an accurate read on what was the IAF's intention. Or the govt's. Whether the target was just 1 terrorist or 1000, there is no way to tell unless the IAF comes out and says it. But there should be no pressure to actually come out and say it.

Just a year ago, we undertook Op Gaganshakti, where many members here including ex servicemen were of the opinion, we could tackle PAF, with our existing depleted strength in a matter of a few days and then transfer the entire IAF to our Eastern front. But hey! Why doesn't war follow the same script as a simulated exercise. Beats me.

I wonder if they hold the same opinions now.

Yes, they will hold the same position.

So, why are we paying taxes then? Just because we earn a surplus or for the sheer fun of it?

What's paying taxes got to do with the military revealing military secrets?

It goes much beyond national security. It cuts to the very bone of it. It also covers individual freedom apart from a prescribed set of do's & don'ts as clearly emunciated by the Constitution of India. One can appreciate non disclose on grounds of national security if such confused and muddled thinking as reflected above weren't aired.

To re iterate. Did we undertake the air strikes to prove a point? Or did we undertake it as a reprisal measure? Or did we undertake it as a preemptive move? That's at the heart of this debate we're having here and none of the statements released so far by the GoI, the Armed Forces or individual ministers are in consonance with each other. In fact they're at cross purposes. Which brings up a suspicion voiced here earlier that there was no battlefield objective given by the GoI to the armed forces. All it wanted was to satiate public demand for retribution by staging something spectacular. As a one off event. Hype it up. Let the public celebrate. Avoid putting out facts and soon enough ppl would forget, go about biz as usual till the next big bang. Do we even have a coherent strategy to deal with terrorism in general and it's chief patron Pakistan in particular?

Where is our national security doctrine? I wouldn't mind if its a state secret to prevent making public all its contents. A redacted one would do too. Do we even have one?

Why should they reveal it? And only a few days after the strikes? Normally declassification takes decades.

The military doesn't decide squat. The GoI does. The military merely advises on the suitablity of putting out such info into the public domain. Stop indulging in subterfuge. Or please read up & be better informed.

The military decides. The govt can overrule. And the govt normally follows the military's recommendation.

Why hasn't the Henderson Brooks report yet been made public? What great state secrets are being protected by the armed forces for a war waged 6 decades ago when In spite of repeatedly being warned by the military the then GoI were living in their own fantasy world ?

Both Sino-India and Indo-Pak wars have strategic relevance even today. Revealing national secrets will only weaken us here. Borders have to change for these things to be declassified.

So, your contention is that just coz a few thousands of a population of 1.3 billion people emigrate, the GoI is justified in keeping things under wrap for an eternity. Lazy and inept attempt at post facto justification. Come up with something better.

Yes. The govt is justified in keeping things under wrap when there is relevance in keeping it all buried.

I want the bare bones. For details of the bare bones , pls refer above as answers to similar points raised by you . I'm not asking for a minutes of meeting down to the last punctuation mark.And what do you mean we have to give up a lot of freedoms? Are we a democracy or a police state? Aren't there enough democracies waging battle against terrorist movements of different intensities? Granted we are up against s more determined and formidable adversary who also happens to be a N power. Does that absolve our governments of inaction or ad hoc scant action?

Ever wondered why the military has its own independent court?

The end result is the result of decades experience gained at a huge material & human cost which ought to have formed the core of ones national security doctrine based on which the case ought to have been prosecuted.
Where's it? The end result could be a few years away or decades away. Each step we take towards that end decides how close we are to it or how distant. Hence, not only the journey must be mapped but each step documented and justified. We have been facing terrorism in myriad forms since the 80's in in different parts of the country mostly through a single patron. At the end of 4 decades we are no closer to the end than we were at the beginning. Why do you think this is the case? Who's responsible for it? If the elected representatives haven't done their job well, shouldn't the citizeny question them apart from holding them responsible and accountable. After all the politicians are secured behind a firewall of security at the cost of you and me - the taxpayers. It's we - the ordinary citizen who pays the price in lives & After paying due taxes that most ordinary politicians don't.

Damned if you don't, damned if you do.

Again. Our military will only disclose that which their political masters permit. Nothing more nor less.

We are not a banana republic.

People want solutions. It's when solutions are elusive, when politicians make empty promises and assurances, when the body count doesn't stop over a period of time that frustration build up and explodes. That's where canny politicians do what they do best. Tap into public sentiment to expose the incumbent governments effeteness or give them a spectacle with a caveat - no questions to be asked. That's propaganda. Not the need to know or disclose the truth or at the very least, even be honest with ones own self.

People do not want solutions, they want results.

Can you present even a single advantage that the military will get by telling you or me anything about the strikes at this time?

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 4661

Civvie satellites are the best way to get what we need to know.

But the satellites should have taken the pics right after the strikes. Even a few hour is fine. Beyond that they could have easily repaired/covered up the damages. These are bunker busters after all.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Also folks, I have a question. Do you folks believe that a cruise missile would have been better choice of weapon in this kind of situation? It can sneak in better and we could have sent in 100s of cruise missiles.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Now we have a minister of the BJP in the central government stating that the purpose of the entire exercise wasn't to have human casualties but to demonstrate to the Pakistanis that we can target such camps. Well, guess what? The Pakistanis reciprocated the gesture the very next day and how?

I will always go with military spokes persons. As far as I understand, military was running the entire show and they decided whom to target, how to target and knew what the results were. Even this information was tightly controlled: RM/PM/3 top military brass. Any random minister is wrong source here.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Just a year ago, we undertook Op Gaganshakti, where many members here including ex servicemen were of the opinion, we could tackle PAF, with our existing depleted strength in a matter of a few days and then transfer the entire IAF to our Eastern front. But hey! Why doesn't war follow the same script as a simulated exercise. Beats me.

Because wars cann't be simulated. Plus this was barely an engagement. War never happened or is still pending.

In WW2, the Eastern front was for a long time a bloody masscare for Russia. Troops in millions were killed. The war outcome only became apparent after a long drawn out war till 1944. What we saw was not even a proper thrust.

 

[randomradio]

May not be.

I have a different take. If you see the LC along Nowshera in Rajouri, the LC heads in a North-Easterly direction and then hooks over itself towards South-Easterly, thereby creating a Hump in a direction North-North West of the town itself.

What, strictly in my opinion here, seems to have happened was that the PAF's intended target, as mentioned by Air Chief Marshal AY Tipnis, PVSM, AVSM, VM, ADC also, was more deeper and likely the airfields at Srinagar and Avantipore.

The IAF did a great job at detecting them and intercepting them just on their side of LC as they took a 'technical violation' (flying within 10 Kms of their side of LC) and scrambling/vectoring the fighters in. In case of Wg Cdr Abhinandan, it seems that the Mig-21 Bison had a possibility of a kill and he took it. The F-16s were egressing from LC (after having crossed 3-4 kms into our side before realizing that interceptors were there) and in the attempt to down a F-16, which would comprehensively put forth the Pakistani use of same, he crossed into our side of 10 kms and approached near LC. Due to the nature of LC in the region, as his plane was 'shot' the machine flew across the LC proper (obviously the controls would have been shot and no one wants to eject at high altitude/bad topography in order to minimize personal injury upon landing) and he ended up in our territory under Pakistani control.

One can always argue over the necessity of his being 'enthusiastic' over getting a kill, indeed on the sidelines, it can appear as his eagerness to get a kill was the reason he got trapped, but it may also be possible that the intent to get a F-16 down may just have been an aim from the outset.

I agree with you there. When I said "gap" I was talking about SAM coverage.

However, this engagement must have hit their morale really bad.

 

[randomradio]

Its actually rather simple. Indians --mostly-- would rather hear from our own forces than from enemies. But both forces and government has been silent and leaving it to the Pakistani to set the narrative. Nature hates vacuum. Its like when parents don't tell kids about some facts, the neighbors tell them distorted facts or facts mixed with lies or plain lies.


BTW, do you believe that this round is over now?

Our forces haven't been silent. A press conference was held where the IAF confirmed 4 buildings were bombed in Balakot. And they confirmed an F-16 was shot down as well. The same press conference had the IN and IA claiming their forces are ready to do the needful.

 

[nair]

They have lied through their teeth even this time too..

1. F-16 has not been used / no American weapons used.
2. Two then three pilots landed in PoJ&K.

But then our government has been too little on any statements too :
1. No indication of damage caused by bombs.
2. No indication of which plane was shot. I doubt there is an official statement on type of Pakistani aircraft been shot.

I beleieve the narratives of both nations are for 2 totally different audience.....I mean primary intended recipient....

1) Pakistan : Internal population - to maintain the larger than life larger than almighty stature
2) Pakistan Army/ISI : To tell them Surgical strike -1 was not a one time operation... Everytime there is a terror fron Pakistan we will not keep quiet.. The second recipient was international community... We are fighting terrorism not Pakistan...

There are other recipients also but they come later......

 

[Shajida Khan]

And they confirmed an F-16 was shot down as well.

They confirmed a plane thats all.

 

[Nilgiri]

They confirmed a plane thats all.

I believe verified IAF page had sequence of events that said it was F-16?

 

[randomradio]

Also folks, I have a question. Do you folks believe that a cruise missile would have been better choice of weapon in this kind of situation? It can sneak in better and we could have sent in 100s of cruise missiles.

They would have responded in kind. The airstrikes were the better option. They responded in kind and suffered for it.

 

[nair]

Our forces haven't been silent. A press conference was held where the IAF confirmed 4 buildings were bombed in Balakot. And they confirmed an F-16 was shot down as well. The same press conference had the IN and IA claiming their forces are ready to do the needful.

This is the most matured way of handling a stand off.... Do understand that this is not short term action like surgical strike in which the briefing was more elaborate.... Here the purpose is to communicate max in a very few words.....

 

[randomradio]

This is the most matured way of handling a stand off.... Do understand that this is not short term action like surgical strike in which the briefing was more elaborate.... Here the purpose is to communicate max in a very few words.....

Yes. As far as I'm concerned, the information we have received is way more than adequate.

It is just our bad luck that the cloud cover has spoilt our chances of seeing the extent of the damage. I'm curious too. So I hope something comes out of civvie SAR images.