India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[_Anonymous_]

The Last and Lost War of Pakistan

Here @safriz . We know you know your history thru your sources. Time you read history as it really was.




Quoting the last few paragraphs of this brilliant monograph by M. J. Akbar

"There is a military response to Pulwama and a political one. We can leave the first to the military; as the Prime Minister said, they know what to do and when. But one aspect of the political response has not been given the attention it deserves, because of a certain dichotomy in our stance that began when Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru took the Kashmir issue to the United Nations. It is time to end this dichotomy.

Pakistan disputes the integration of Jammu and Kashmir into India. We may not be able to alter Pakistan’s attitude, but we can change ours. The time has come to aver that the integration of Kashmir into India is a closed chapter. We must take it off the agenda of talks. There is nothing to discuss with Islamabad, except the withdrawal of its troops from ‘Occupied Kashmir’. This position also reflects a formal resolution passed by India’s Parliament. We have not taken that resolution to its logical conclusion.

That conclusion requires a final step, the full integration of Jammu and Kashmir into the Union of India. There is a basic flaw in our understanding of Article 370, which gives the province a special status. Article 370 was the beginning of the process, not an immutable end-game. It may have been essential in 1947, and relevant till much later. But today it is an anachronism that impinges on the unity of our nation.

Every Kashmiri is an Indian citizen. There is no such thing as a ‘special’ Indian or a ‘conditional’ citizen. Then why should such a qualified status be given to a province which is an equal member of the Union of India?

The process began on October 17th, 1949, when Gopalaswami Aiyangar moved Article 306A in the Constituent Assembly; this became Article 370. One member of the Assembly, Hasrat Mohani, asked, “Why this discrimination, please?” There were cheers when he hoped that in due course Jammu and Kashmir would become as integrated into the Union of India as other princely states. The ‘due course’ is surely now overdue.

Revenge is not a word that should exist in the dictionary of a civilised and sensible government; but justice is. The two have one thing in common: both are best served cold."

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Point it to me.... may have missed.

Don't want to name names, they are good people, some here from long, post was more to get the message home, not to actually act against anyone as I think they are mature enough to understand.

That my point, why do we still seek validation from others.

This is not validation, this is acknowledgement, big difference between two, USAF is a force to reckon with and so are few western airforces, we are not at the top of ladder.

 

[randomradio]

That my point, why do we still seek validation from others.

This has nothing to do with validation, it's recognition.

 

[Sathya]

He is being recognised for shooting down an F-16.

First time for the F-16 to be shot down in any global conflict. First time a 3rd generation fighter shot down a 4th generation fighter in WVR combat. Largest air combat since WW2. First air combat between two N powers. First time a N power struck another N power's soil.

Lot of history being made.

Didn t intend to demean his success,

F16 was running away because of collective force in indian side , his success comes from being part of pack ..

Do we need to learn more of the engagement ?

Or are we are sure of manoeuvre s .. no need to dissect further ?

Looking at pilots chat , seems he did some extra ordinary engagement.

 

[lcafanboy]

He is being recognised for shooting down an F-16.

First time for the F-16 to be shot down in any global conflict. First time a 3rd generation fighter shot down a 4th generation fighter in WVR combat. Largest air combat since WW2. First air combat between two N powers. First time a N power struck another N power's soil.

Lot of history being made.

There are more first times lined up and a lot more history to be rewritten. Pakistanis will remember for life and Lizard won't wag its tail against India anym in future. Wait for 48hrs...

Pa-kis have sensed it and offered peace talks which was shoved into their backhoe. PM Modi not even came on phone call by Imran Khan thrice...

 

[screambowl]

Soon we will know what he did up there and how he flew so it makes no sense in discussing all that.

This section is about standoff, we should concentrate ourselves on possible developments and what opportunities India have in hand, because masood azhar is not yet with India.

 

[screambowl]

sometimes I wonder, we have been preparing ourselves with two front war, till now China has not directly involved what if it had involved. Sala Pakistan to sambhal nahi raha.. two front.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Jamati e Islamic have 400 Madras's and 1000 mosques in Kashmir valley. It's is the factory of anti Indian ideology. Banning it is a huge step, let's we if we close or take over the control of Jamati institutions.

The entire set up ought to be dismantled. This is one of the stark failures of the Indian state particularly so in the state of J&K. It's long overdue.

While on the topic - The Dar ul Uloom aka the Deoband seminary and their fellow travellers like the Tableeghi Jamaat have very successfully convinced the Indian state that they exist for the betterment of Indian Muslims while professing belief in mutahida quamiyat ( composite nationalism) while preaching their version of wahabbism throughout the country.

While in itself they do not openly subscribe to the Dar ul Islam / Dar ul Harb theory, there's little room for doubt that their world view is extremely narrow, highly regimented, totally aligned to the larger goal of Islamic supremacy and thus in the long run creating a fertile ground to be exploited by more adventurous like minded ideologies in the future.

The present state of Pakistan is due in no small measure to such ideologies gaining sway and running amok creating havoc in its wake.

There's a huge battle on in India for the soul of Indian Sunni Muslims totally under the radar, largely non violent, highly divisive & completely unobserved by the MSM between those reposing faith in the syncretic traditions that has traditionally held away amongst vast multitudes of Indian Muslims and the neo petro dollar funded puritanical & highly fanatical sects making rapid in roads since the past 3-4 decades in our land.

 

[Austerlitz]

Finally, Thank you!!!!!! This policy now has to be implemented with full force.

I don't understand obsession with POK.I understand we should diplomatically keep this a non negotiable thing,but in realistic strategic terms lets face it - POK populace is mostly hostile to us.We have enough trouble with kashmir valley as is(unlike jammu and ladakh).We don't need more seditious population -more economic and military burden.Let them rot with failed state pakistan(though diplomatically don't budge).Meanwhile make jammu and ladakh into union territories and clean up valley.Stop giving back militants bodies,these mass funerals give more publicity and more radicalization.Reactivate ikhwan.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I don't understand obsession with POK.I understand we should diplomatically keep this a non negotiable thing,but in realistic strategic terms lets face it - POK populace is mostly hostile to us.We have enough trouble with kashmir valley as is(unlike jammu and ladakh).We don't need more seditious population -more economic and military burden.Let them rot with failed state pakistan(though diplomatically don't budge).Meanwhile make jammu and ladakh into union territories and clean up valley.Stop giving back militants bodies,these mass funerals give more publicity and more radicalization.Reactivate ikhwan.

There's a larger problem here - the deep involvement of China courtesy its border with PoJ&K to the state of Pakistan. We need to break this Gordian knot ASAP and confine China to the east of the Pamirs and Karakorum - their traditional western boundaries.

As far as the hostile population goes, let's at least attempt a reconquest of PoJ&K . Once that is through, cleanse it and repopulate it with Indians after duly scrapping Article 370.That should be our final goal.

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Sathya]

I don't understand obsession with POK.I understand we should diplomatically keep this a non negotiable thing,but in realistic strategic terms lets face it - POK populace is mostly hostile to us.We have enough trouble with kashmir valley as is(unlike jammu and ladakh).We don't need more seditious population -more economic and military burden.Let them rot with failed state pakistan(though diplomatically don't budge).Meanwhile make jammu and ladakh into union territories and clean up valley.Stop giving back militants bodies,these mass funerals give more publicity and more radicalization.Reactivate ikhwan.

I think it's already happening atleast began.
Cleaning inside while taking out outside.

Government cannot invest in development on its own, have in bring in private sector..
Removing article 370 will be good step in social change.

 

[Austerlitz]

I understand the need for positive publicity and keeping the morale up and not putting down our own armed forces.
That said, I think there is a need to understand why our SAM systems did not engage the 24 aircraft which ingressed. There can be many reasons I see.
1. The time that the were close and engaging near the LOC was too small to take action. With the standoff weapons available, this would mean our SAMs have a large probability to never engage and defend most of the time. This point would work double for the Pakistanis then since ours was the first air mission and hence more surprise and lesser reaction time.
2. Was it a case of being too hesitant to pull the trigger? Stuck in the analysis paralysis mode? This would mean our training for specific rules of engagement and crossing redlines is lacking.
3. High air taffic of our own flying crafts. This is similar case the first point, where its very likely going to be the case most of the time. So are our SAMs not optimal for this age of warfare?

Is there any other reason that I am not seeing?
We need to understand if it is one or a combination for making a difference in any of our future engagements.

Our SAM network is mostly obsolete atm and undergoing modernization.
There are not enough SPYDERs,these are short ranged and are protecting the most high priority economic areas (punjab,rajasthan and gujarat border).
Next is akash,but that is meant for static airbase protection and N-E.Also acc to CAG its a mediocre missile atm.Also short - medium range.Meant for replacing handful of sa-6.
The most plentiful standard weapon, s-125 pechoras are 50 years old and slated to be replaced by MRSAM Barak-8.This process has just started.
Tender on new MANPADS ongoing.
The DRDO QRSAM will replace the sa-13 gopher and sa-8 gecko short range missiles in service with army armour formations.
We don't have long range SAMs until we get barak-8 and s-400 which willbe 2 more years.After that we will have a formidable SAM network.
Also PAF planes entered a very small distance and thus we didn't really get chance.

Prasun sengupta(skepticism noted) nonetheless made a very interesting point.Use of F-16s as strike platform with sniper pods shows that PAF as of now has no aerial platform(jf-017 or mirages) capable of standoff strikes with pods except f-16.He also said PAF is terrified of HMDS/R-73 combo which they don't have (no aim-9x or high off boresight missile) and thus want to avoid any kind of dogfight with IAF.Thats why they retreated immediately and only fired BVRs.Even then one got hit by r-73.

 

[screambowl]

95% of world population has no idea about any conventions or rules, they take things as they are shown to them, Unless until India openly declares that they have got Masood Azhar with evidence, this black spot on us that Pakistanis didn't care of any rules, came inside India in broad day light and later one IAF pilot became the POW, no matter he downed the F16, 80% world population DOES NOT KNOW WHAT F16 is, , the term POW is itself a big sham on our face the way they paraded him.

Try to understand that Pakistanis and every one will comment us for the next 50 years on this. Mark it!! India has to take very decisive action and erase this black spot with something maverick!!

 

[Volcano]

The entire set up ought to be dismantled. This is one of the stark failures of the Indian state particularly so in the state of J&K. It's long overdue.

While on the topic - The Dar ul Uloom aka the Deoband seminary and their fellow travellers like the Tableeghi Jamaat have very successfully convinced the Indian state that they exist for the betterment of Indian Muslims while professing belief in mutahida quamiyat ( composite nationalism) while preaching their version of wahabbism throughout the country.

While in itself they do not openly subscribe to the Dar ul Islam / Dar ul Harb theory, there's little room for doubt that their world view is extremely narrow, highly regimented, totally aligned to the larger goal of Islamic supremacy and thus in the long run creating a fertile ground to be exploited by more adventurous like minded ideologies in the future.

The present state of Pakistan is due in no small measure to such ideologies gaining sway and running amok creating havoc in its wake.

There's a huge battle on in India for the soul of Indian Sunni Muslims totally under the radar, largely non violent, highly divisive & completely unobserved by the MSM between those reposing faith in the syncretic traditions that has traditionally held away amongst vast multitudes of Indian Muslims and the neo petro dollar funded puritanical & highly fanatical sects making rapid in roads since the past 3-4 decades in our land.

On the contrary,Indian administration over gilgit baltistan sector is easier than many think. The large Shia population in Gilgit and Baltistan tend to be less fanatic than Sunni fanatics of valley and Pakistan occupied part of Kashmir.

 

[screambowl]

There is some reason why US records everything from drone footage, why CNN reported live from Baghdad. This is psyop which Pakistanis in the last 12 years have learnt from the CIA under war on terror in Afghanistan.

Do not take this for granted, ISI has learnt and mastered the Psywar.

 

[Austerlitz]

There's a larger problem here - the deep involvement of China courtesy its border with PoJ&K to the state of Pakistan. We need to break this Gordian knot ASAP and confine China to the east of the Pamirs and Karakorum - their traditional western boundaries.

As far as the hostile population goes, let's at least attempt a reconquest of PoJ&K . Once that is through, cleanse it and repopulate it with Indians after duly scrapping Article 370.That should be our final goal.

Agree with the rest of your post.

Problem with your ideas -
1.Pakistan will not reconcile with loss of POK.Loss of a major city in POK will inevitably lead to nuclear escalation.Also due to mountain terrain taking this land will be hugely costly.All this for a seditious radicalized jihadi population?No thanks.
2.You can't cleanse even our kashmir valley even now.And you are talking about that.We are a democracy,not china.There are serious limits on what we can do,and also opposition won't let you.Lets stick our ambitions to valley sanitization.
3.We can't target chinese assets/investments directly.Too much risk for too little gain.

POK is a good diplomatic slogan.Keep it that way.In real terms its a massive burden,a sink for manpower and treasure for a non -productive area full of radicalized jihadi elements.Let them rot with pakistan.

 

[rockstarIN]

The quality and resolution of the pictures will expose your capabilities in this domain. Normally countries release highly redacted SAR pictures.

Do we have real time satellite capabilities where we can see as video, somewhat it is shown in 'behind Enemy lines' (even heat images moving)

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

There are more first times lined up and a lot more history to be rewritten. Pakistanis will remember for life and Lizard won't wag its tail against India anym in future. Wait for 48hrs...

Pa-kis have sensed it and offered peace talks which was shoved into their backhoe. PM Modi not even came on phone call by Imran Khan thrice...

Pakistanis will get more Punishment

Is that what you are implying

 

[Enquencher]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1102137233350438913

Can any one confirm use of 155 mm artilerry. @Falcon

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

sometimes I wonder, we have been preparing ourselves with two front war, till now China has not directly involved what if it had involved. Sala Pakistan to sambhal nahi raha.. two front.

Our problem is not pakistan

It is the those people who are calling for

De-escalation

If we escalate , they will take out protests

We must put them behind bars for a month