India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[The Deterrent]

Ridiculous reference. He was referring to the specific type of explosives device used

Did you read the entire article?

Dismemberment of the state of Pakistan and the PA are two different things unless this a Freudian slip from your end. Frankly, the ones taking (mis-) calculated risks is the PA. If Pulwama didn't occur, we may still be having this discussion minus the irony. I really don't know why you guys think that the IA would be the ones miscalculatimg here where they have always been in a defensive / reactive role straining at the leash much to their chagrin and utter disgust of most of the members here.

I meant exactly what I said, the dismemberment of PA.
Perhaps you're not quite up to date with the developments Indian Strategic Forces Command is making. Ask @Falcon , he might entertain you in this regard. I'd love to share my findings but then I'll be banned in the name of national security. The short version of the story is, Indian is rapidly building up a special part of its military to be able to mount a decapitation strike. The miscalculation is the underestimated mobility and survivability of its adversary's assets. The resultant risk at present varies from losing almost all western airbases, cantts and population centers...to losing military and civilian targets from Ambala & Jamnagar to Patna & Hyderabad. In a few years, the prized crown-jewels of the SFC on the eastern coast will be in Pakistan's range too (no, I'm not referring to the SSBNs here).

The only ones left in & around ground Zero would be truly the unfortunate ones as the fortunate ones would have gone to their reward.

That's true as well.

I hope a lot of members here are reading this with keen interest. Especially the veterans & the professionals. I've myself argued that if our end goals is seizing PoJ&K, it ought to commence with a total de fanging of Pakistan NWP, along with its FM, vectors, reactors, N weapons storage sites, etc either in tandem with the west or alone if we have real capabilities to mount such an attack.

As of now we know the N threshold of Pakistan isn't as low as they claim it is. We can only wonder how flexible / high is it.

However, there's a lot of doubt on the yield of your warheads. There's still strong doubts about whether its progressed in any manner beyond what the Chinese designs of the early 80's were. Ditto for the CM / BM vectors which most view as outdated Chinese technology. There's good reason to harbour such beliefs among a section of our establishment.

To come to your point about Pakistan preparing itself to fight a N war beyond the need of deterrence and having prepared for N extraction by the West, I'd conclude by writing that I don't doubt the former ( the same would hold true from our end) & you will definitely not survive the latter. It's just a question of the will to be exercised by India in sustaining the fallout of a few such devices going off across our land and the intent of the west in making it happen come what may. The day the resolve between these two entities manifests itself, Pakistan will have no place to hide. We seem to be approaching such a situation sooner rather than later.

If the thinking reflected by the Indian developments on ground actually exists in a serious manner (beyond theoretical options) in the upper echelons of the Indian military, they are gravely underestimating Pakistan's capabilities in this specific regard. Contrary to what people may think of the statements put out by the Pakistani military, it conveyed a much deeper message when it introduced "Full Spectrum Deterrence". Pakistan's SFCs are being equipped to fight a nuclear war in multiple conventional theaters of a conflict.

The threshold is higher than what India has been led to believe. For a long time they were high enough for India to introduce CSD. Afterwards, they've just been lowered enough to deter CSD. Its a long discussion, probably for some other day, but it is not about nuking IBGs moving into Pakistan...its about what happens afterwards. For the record, Pakistan has never officially claimed or identified any nuclear red lines, it has just been posturing...but hey, if it works, why not? However if India chooses to go first with a massive CF strike attempt, then all bets will be off.

Regarding yields, you should look at the dimensions and physical parameters of the original CHIC-4 & the warheads of Pakistani missiles. The devices tested in '98 were several iterations of improvements over that design, and new ones. Again, contrary to popular belief, this is one area where Pakistan has made massive progress since the 90s, verified by hydrodynamic testing. Pakistan has no aims for building metropolitan-destroyers, but has plans for demonstrating its capability if India chooses to go first ilike in '98. Instead, Pakistan has focused on miniaturization, while keeping similar yields. The thing about miniaturization is that when it crosses a certain diameter threshold, interesting platforms become increasingly available.

There's a difference here. The NDS is an interested party. They aren't useful idiots or mercenaries for hire. They have much more of a vested interest in striking Pakistan given the havoc you've wrought in Afghanistan. In scale it's much much more compared to what you've been subjecting us to.Hence this isn't about us giving them money and painting a target. It's much more deeper than that and much more personal for the NDS. Finally, you've also provoked Iran by your recent shenanigans. The US is still hovering around with their drones intact. The next time there's a massive strike, I really don't know whom are you going to blame.

True, except that its not just the NDS which benefits from India, TTP & BLA have been quite satisfied business partners as well. The Iranian fiasco is the age-old story of 'supervised' assets getting out of hand, aided by the Saudis. As I've said before, we need to reign in EVERYONE. The US frankly does us a favor, we only had problems with them when they let the TTP leadership get away a couple times, sabotaged our negotiations, or caused too much collateral damage.

To end with Afghanistan is to us what you are to the Chinese. While I'm not claiming Iron Brother status here, it's quite close. And by the looks of it, Iran isn't too far behind either.

I'll believe that when India transfers actual military equipment to Afghanistan. Until then, they're just an occasional annoyance to us.

I challenged him for a debate - he ran away.
for him everything ISPR is "substantiated, evidenced" claims
everything MEA India says is "unsubstantiated"
its not a rational debate if he doesnt want to even look at other claims and see it is possible that ISPR could be lying.

Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.
Lagta hai izzat raas nahi aati.

P.S. amusing thread so far, keep it up people.

 

[Hellfire]

Do Pakistani's Have Anything Like GRID We Use ???? Hope U know What I Just Refer To

I don't think so. Elements yes, but not the whole framework.

 

[Hellfire]

5th march ..something big happened at ib.sources telling .is that the same thing rajnath singh is telling abt.the thirs strike

Nothing at IB. Rumor mongering.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Did you read the entire article?


I meant exactly what I said, the dismemberment of PA.
Perhaps you're not quite up to date with the developments Indian Strategic Forces Command is making. Ask @Falcon , he might entertain you in this regard. I'd love to share my findings but then I'll be banned in the name of national security. The short version of the story is, Indian is rapidly building up a special part of its military to be able to mount a decapitation strike. The miscalculation is the underestimated mobility and survivability of its adversary's assets. The resultant risk at present varies from losing almost all western airbases, cantts and population centers...to losing military and civilian targets from Ambala & Jamnagar to Patna & Hyderabad. In a few years, the prized crown-jewels of the SFC on the eastern coast will be in Pakistan's range too (no, I'm not referring to the SSBNs here).


That's true as well.


If the thinking reflected by the Indian developments on ground actually exists in a serious manner (beyond theoretical options) in the upper echelons of the Indian military, they are gravely underestimating Pakistan's capabilities in this specific regard. Contrary to what people may think of the statements put out by the Pakistani military, it conveyed a much deeper message when it introduced "Full Spectrum Deterrence". Pakistan's SFCs are being equipped to fight a nuclear war in multiple conventional theaters of a conflict.

The threshold is higher than what India has been led to believe. For a long time they were high enough for India to introduce CSD. Afterwards, they've just been lowered enough to deter CSD. Its a long discussion, probably for some other day, but it is not about nuking IBGs moving into Pakistan...its about what happens afterwards. For the record, Pakistan has never officially claimed or identified any nuclear red lines, it has just been posturing...but hey, if it works, why not? However if India chooses to go first with a massive CF strike attempt, then all bets will be off.

Regarding yields, you should look at the dimensions and physical parameters of the original CHIC-4 & the warheads of Pakistani missiles. The devices tested in '98 were several iterations of improvements over that design, and new ones. Again, contrary to popular belief, this is one area where Pakistan has made massive progress since the 90s, verified by hydrodynamic testing. Pakistan has no aims for building metropolitan-destroyers, but has plans for demonstrating its capability if India chooses to go first ilike in '98. Instead, Pakistan has focused on miniaturization, while keeping similar yields. The thing about miniaturization is that when it crosses a certain diameter threshold, interesting platforms become increasingly available.


True, except that its not just the NDS which benefits from India, TTP & BLA have been quite satisfied business partners as well. The Iranian fiasco is the age-old story of 'supervised' assets getting out of hand, aided by the Saudis. As I've said before, we need to reign in EVERYONE. The US frankly does us a favor, we only had problems with them when they let the TTP leadership get away a couple times, sabotaged our negotiations, or caused too much collateral damage.


I'll believe that when India transfers actual military equipment to Afghanistan. Until then, they're just an occasional annoyance to us.


Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.
Lagta hai izzat raas nahi aati.

P.S. amusing thread so far, keep it up people.

You can’t compare Rdx with a smart warhead.

 

[Hellfire]

You are also becoming Baba sirji with these cryptic tweets to non military background people.

Why are we escalating now sir? Public pressure is not that much, political leadership is busy with elections, also if we keep killing them like this they will try something desperate, not talking about nuclear but another attack or military attack somewhere. I am just not understanding what's our objective? Are we going to keep them like this till they are bankrupt and then go for final kill or its just temporary at tactical level without any larger objective..

Nothing cryptic. You are trying to find meaning to what I am merely observing. Observation on the caliber of weapons and what effect they have.

We are not escalating, please. Be very clear, we always de-escalate. With overwhelming fire. We dominate LC in majority of places, save a couple here and there. The aim is to keep their military under pressure, because if they remain under pressure, we can work with GoP. GoP gets to do what it needs to. Without the sustained military pressure, diplomatic efforts will not yield results.

Please understand that while we tend to portray PA as a bunch of buffoons, they are not. Even they know that longer this plays out, the more serious the country gets into trouble.

While pointing out this aspect of imposing economic costs by sustained rates of military engagements along with a military pressure to a Pakistani member elsewhere, he was quick to counter with underlying the ability of Pakistani military to continuously match the military response. So far, so good. That is what we want, because there always will come a time, every second week or so, when supplementary budgetary support will be needed for sustaining those operations.

There are reports of civil trucks being commandeered to move troops over a span of couple of days. What is the cost? Is the cost limited merely to an increased military expenditure as the Armed Forces will be paying for those services or will it include the economic cost aggravated by sudden vacuum of civil transport for a couple of days, which shall see a dip in exchange of goods and services?

Till how long can budgetary support be sustained without tanking the economy? Yes, Pakistan Army can sustain the tempo of operations. Indeed, it was the response I was looking for, hoping to hear and wish to hear in future too.

Army is all good and fine till as such time economy is manageable, once it is not, the country becomes open to lot of problems, starting with becoming the fallguy for others with vested interest and influence. Also, in the present times, once the economy tanks, and with the persistence of fundamentalists in their society, how long before you have the perfect conditions wherein the religious extremists will take on Pakistani Government itself? It has already happened twice recently, with the TLP. That is what I meant when I said, we will fight Pakistan till the last Pakistani. We do not need to fight. They will screw themselves up.

Everything has a cost.

 

[Hellfire]

He felt that he would probably return as an F-16 killer or in a body bag or both, that's probably why he pressed on.

One can attribute it to heat of a fight. But that is what you are trained not to fall for, because that shall surely lead you into a sticky situation, as was seen. Anyways, all worked out for him. Intelligence on our side is confirmed of a kill, he can enjoy.

 

[randomradio]

I meant exactly what I said, the dismemberment of PA.

This is what you said:

Imagine the dismembered factions of PA as the aggressors you face today. Imagine the amount and skill of them, and their new recruits. Imagine them being armed with whatever was left over and not dismantled. Imagine living in the constant fear, everyday, that somewhere in a busy city, the Geiger counters will start going off.

Many of these individuals won't have a place to hide as surveillance capability gets better, if these individuals are considering staying in India. They will all be bagged and tagged, meaning most PA officers are already well-known to the Indian security establishment. These are not anonymous, faceless individuals. Not to mention, you can expect the Indo-Pak border to be sealed anyway, so no refugees will be allowed to spill into India.

Dismembered PA factions are going to be useless as long as they have a base for shelter. Do you really think India will allow the remnants a base? Even Syria is finally destroying all the remnant bases now. There's going to be no demilitarised zone in Pakistan or Afghanistan for them. China will have to host them, which is iffy at best.

So no, they are not going to be the kind of threat you think they will be.

Size and weight of nukes will make it difficult to carry them around. And it's difficult to hide them as well. The security establishment will have various ways to deal with a True Lies kind of situation. And our country will survive a few explosions here and there. You have to think about what's been gained from this.

Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.

Is this a veiled request for an invitation to Republic TV's debates?

 

[nair]

One can attribute it to heat of a fight. But that is what you are trained not to fall for, because that shall surely lead you into a sticky situation, as was seen. Anyways, all worked out for him. Intelligence on our side is confirmed of a kill, he can enjoy.

Killed a whale I say......

 

[Guynextdoor]

Did you read the entire article?


I meant exactly what I said, the dismemberment of PA.
Perhaps you're not quite up to date with the developments Indian Strategic Forces Command is making. Ask @Falcon , he might entertain you in this regard. I'd love to share my findings but then I'll be banned in the name of national security. The short version of the story is, Indian is rapidly building up a special part of its military to be able to mount a decapitation strike. The miscalculation is the underestimated mobility and survivability of its adversary's assets. The resultant risk at present varies from losing almost all western airbases, cantts and population centers...to losing military and civilian targets from Ambala & Jamnagar to Patna & Hyderabad. In a few years, the prized crown-jewels of the SFC on the eastern coast will be in Pakistan's range too (no, I'm not referring to the SSBNs here).


That's true as well.


If the thinking reflected by the Indian developments on ground actually exists in a serious manner (beyond theoretical options) in the upper echelons of the Indian military, they are gravely underestimating Pakistan's capabilities in this specific regard. Contrary to what people may think of the statements put out by the Pakistani military, it conveyed a much deeper message when it introduced "Full Spectrum Deterrence". Pakistan's SFCs are being equipped to fight a nuclear war in multiple conventional theaters of a conflict.

The threshold is higher than what India has been led to believe. For a long time they were high enough for India to introduce CSD. Afterwards, they've just been lowered enough to deter CSD. Its a long discussion, probably for some other day, but it is not about nuking IBGs moving into Pakistan...its about what happens afterwards. For the record, Pakistan has never officially claimed or identified any nuclear red lines, it has just been posturing...but hey, if it works, why not? However if India chooses to go first with a massive CF strike attempt, then all bets will be off.

Regarding yields, you should look at the dimensions and physical parameters of the original CHIC-4 & the warheads of Pakistani missiles. The devices tested in '98 were several iterations of improvements over that design, and new ones. Again, contrary to popular belief, this is one area where Pakistan has made massive progress since the 90s, verified by hydrodynamic testing. Pakistan has no aims for building metropolitan-destroyers, but has plans for demonstrating its capability if India chooses to go first ilike in '98. Instead, Pakistan has focused on miniaturization, while keeping similar yields. The thing about miniaturization is that when it crosses a certain diameter threshold, interesting platforms become increasingly available.


True, except that its not just the NDS which benefits from India, TTP & BLA have been quite satisfied business partners as well. The Iranian fiasco is the age-old story of 'supervised' assets getting out of hand, aided by the Saudis. As I've said before, we need to reign in EVERYONE. The US frankly does us a favor, we only had problems with them when they let the TTP leadership get away a couple times, sabotaged our negotiations, or caused too much collateral damage.


I'll believe that when India transfers actual military equipment to Afghanistan. Until then, they're just an occasional annoyance to us.


Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.
Lagta hai izzat raas nahi aati.

P.S. amusing thread so far, keep it up people.

Forget everything else. Did you hear the audio clips in this article? What is your explanation for the audio clip?
Jaish-e-Mohammed admits Indian attack on Balakot, urges Pakistanis to join Kashmir jihad

 

[randomradio]

One can attribute it to heat of a fight. But that is what you are trained not to fall for, because that shall surely lead you into a sticky situation, as was seen. Anyways, all worked out for him. Intelligence on our side is confirmed of a kill, he can enjoy.

Guess he is not going to climb up the chain of command though.

 

[randomradio]

That is what we want, because there always will come a time, every second week or so, when supplementary budgetary support will be needed for sustaining those operations.

IIRC, Imran Khan approved additional spending only last week, a few billion rupees. I think 8 billion rupees. And half that went towards the PAF.

 

[Bharath]

Hmmm, let's see...I'll debate only if there are 10 debaters debating at the same time, and if everyone shouts at the top of their voices.
Lagta hai izzat raas nahi aati.

or maybe you are waiting for ISPR's tweets and only that is the whole truth for you guys. the past examples of kargil just dont open your eyes.

 

[Hellfire]

Guess he is not going to climb up the chain of command though.

You may never know. Depends on his overall profile with respect to his coursemates etc.

 

[Hellfire]

Is this a veiled request for an invitation to Republic TV's debates?

I have stopped watching Television as of 5 years back, thanks to TImes Now. And it being emulated elsewhere. The coup de grace was one hindi channels top 100 news, one news item spread in 5 to 7 spots. Saw where the IQ was headed, switched to watching Nirmala Baba intermittently when bored. Then, finally gave up. TATA Sky called me 5 times to remind for payment, told, have shifted out of India altogether. That was that.

A couple of months back, guests were coming over. Wife reminded to get the TV connection. Got a cable of Hathway, the guests stayed about 3 weeks, they watched. I also watched a bit, to see what was I missing. Once they went, took off the connection, removed it and packed the Hathway set top box permanently.

I gave up.

 

[Butter Chicken]

Another Pakistani UAV shot down in Hindumalkot area of Sri Ganganagar. 7th UAV down.What's cooking?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105303015894839296

 

[Hellfire]

Another Pakistani UAV shot down in Hindumalkot area of Sri Ganganagar. 7th UAV down.What's cooking?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105303015894839296

There is an agreement between India and Pakistan to down equal numbers of UAVs as the cost of one Mig-21, so that Pakistan then can claim that no F-16 was shot down?


On topic:

Will someone tell me, what troops, as part of Orbat, are supposed to be deployed there, in wars? One can refer 1971 and 1965 wars.

Also, what are the potential targets India has in that area?

That shall give you the answer?

 

[randomradio]

I have stopped watching Television as of 5 years back, thanks to TImes Now. And it being emulated elsewhere. The coup de grace was one hindi channels top 100 news, one news item spread in 5 to 7 spots. Saw where the IQ was headed, switched to watching Nirmala Baba intermittently when bored. Then, finally gave up. TATA Sky called me 5 times to remind for payment, told, have shifted out of India altogether. That was that.

A couple of months back, guests were coming over. Wife reminded to get the TV connection. Got a cable of Hathway, the guests stayed about 3 weeks, they watched. I also watched a bit, to see what was I missing. Once they went, took off the connection, removed it and packed the Hathway set top box permanently.

I gave up.

Same here. Haven't watched TV in years.

Anyway, with Jio you get free TV with 600+ channels. Don't need stuff like Hathway or TATA Sky, so no need to throw money at that. But you need an internet connection, a phone with Jio sim or dongle for Jio TV subscription, which is free, and a smart TV or Google Chromecast (for a TV which can handle USB), so that you can display it on the TV. It's basically TV on the go.

 

[randomradio]

There is an agreement between India and Pakistan to down equal numbers of UAVs as the cost of one Mig-21, so that Pakistan then can claim that no F-16 was shot down?


On topic:

Will someone tell me, what troops, as part of Orbat, are supposed to be deployed there, in wars? One can refer 1971 and 1965 wars.

Also, what are the potential targets India has in that area?

That shall give you the answer?

Isn't that the area which is the X Corps' domain, which is easily our most powerful Pivot Corps?

We have the 24th RAPID there in Bikaner and they sit right across Bhawalpur.

 

[vstol Jockey]

That's quite unrealistic. The distance between Porbandar and Tashkent is 4400Km to and fro, well above Mig-29K's range even with three drop tanks and no weapons.

At best you can fly up to Kabul, release Nirbhays to make up for the distance up to Tashkent.

Buddy, I talked of Buddy refueling to extend the range. I request you to go thru the Vulcan raid on Port Stanley airfield in 1982 falklands war and how it was done.

 

[nair]

Another Pakistani UAV shot down in Hindumalkot area of Sri Ganganagar. 7th UAV down.What's cooking?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105303015894839296

Look like Pakistani Humnit is in a very bad shape in that area....