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Guys,

We would like to keep quality intact of this thread. Offtopic chit chat and rumormongering is not helpful.

This thread will be highly moderated here on. All offtopic/trolling/bantering will be removed and will invite thread ban without notice.

Thanks.

Some pointers who feel lost :

Kashmir CT ---> Kashmir : Counter Terror Operation Updates and Discussions

When you have the itch to troll or about the tales of @safriz hay days! ---> Off-Topic Chit-Chat

Testing of new missiles ---> Strategic Forces & Missile Systems

MiG-21 / F-16 face off -- > Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

Chinese Economics --> Chinese Economy : Updates and Discussions

Some tweets that you felt interesting --> Tweet Corner
 
AIM-120C were the multiple lauches of AAM at Mig-21 Bison which was shot down? Remember it was operating under the protective top cover of Su-30 MKI which were jamming? That would mean that the Mig-21 was ahead and below?

Intresting, but even if they fired when Mig was closer to Su30 contrary to what media claims it still was intent to kill and unwarranted escalation given that their ground target were just symbolic to claim "proportional response".

Would they waste expensive as hell BVR missile on Mig 21 and that too multiple ones when they have Su30 as tempting target? Also why would they target Indian aircraft at all when both are in their respective air space? Shooting down an aircraft qualifies very well as act of war that too in your aggression on military targets. In combination this is asking for trouble and diplomatic harakiri.

It feels like Mig sneaked into WVR combat with f16, shot one down and got shot, when PAF saw Su30 around they started firing both in self defense and to get something meaningful instead of old Mig 21 after losing their best jet.

Don't know what happened but it doesn't make sense to start suicidal firing at a beast and invite it's wrath in a symbolic proportional response to destroy few trees of each other. Something spooked them could be downing of f16.
 
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I am still clueless about the identity of the two Indians pilots who were shot down and were at large as claimed by DGISPR on 27th Morning. Someone posted here that maybe two JF-17s were also downed. Could it be that those two supposedly Indian Pilots who were at large were actually JF-17 pilots? I am just thinking aloud and not stating that this is what happened.
 
True. But don't you see that by not reacting why the present Government has indeed allowed the public sense of anger and dissatisfaction to fester

Only you me and few other chaps are showing dissatisfaction. People were loving Pakistan when they returned Abhinandan, unfortunately this is the sad state of affair in our country. The Napakis will again do something and once again they would introduce peace gesture and ask for evidence and use our own media to shut us up. Already we have had 3 encounters in the valley and lost soldiers since Feb14th.

When I say elections, one has to understand that the elections are the immediate issue, India will not allow any event to undermine it's pride - it's democracy, something which allows it to wield a significant moral strength in the world, which has diplomatic spin offs. With the election done away with, and with the indicators coming in of a Modi-2 Government likely in, the country can continue to deal with our pesky neighbour more resolutely without being undermined by 'with an eye to elections Modi is doing this' refrain curtailing the might of the Government of India.

Yes, elections have always been problem rather than boon to Indians. For future use, we have set up a stage. Snow will melt on time and targets would be clear. Modi-2 Govt has to finish what they started to make two things clear.

1. This was not for elections
2. Iron fist works well with Pakistan.

But then there is a danger of exhaustion from our people, that how long the fight will go on. How long the soldiers would die. This will help the Pakistani narrative than India's chance to humiliate Pakistan.

The quicker Pakistan is bashed and humiliated for their wrong doings in Pulwama better it is for India and the armed forces. Otherwise there will be voices to began peace talks.
 
Intresting, but even if they fired when Mig was closer to Su30 contrary to what media claims it still was intent to kill and unwarranted escalation given that their ground target were just symbolic to claim "proportional response".

Would they waste expensive as hell BVR missile on Mig 21 and that too multiple ones when they have Su30 as tempting target? Also why would they target Indian aircraft at all when both are in their respective air space? Shooting down an aircraft qualifies very well as act of war that too in your aggression on military targets. In combination this is asking for trouble and diplomatic harakiri.

It feels like Mig sneaked into WVR combat with f16, shot one down and got shot, when PAF saw Su30 around they started firing both in self defense and to get something meaningful instead of old Mig 21 after losing their best jet.

Don't know what happened but it doesn't make sense to start suicidal firing at a beast and invite it's wrath in a symbolic proportional response to destroy few trees of each other. Something spooked them could be downing of f16.


Let me check exactly what has happened, because as far as I know, Mig-21 bagged the F-16 which had it's tail to him and was turning to return to own side when it was, in turn, bagged. I believe that there is a video where in a witness has corroborated that, saying that they saw the Indian aircraft heading towards LC and burning. Not sure. And too late in the day to look for the video.
 
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Intresting, but even if they fired when Mig was closer to Su30 contrary to what media claims it still was intent to kill and unwarranted escalation given that their ground target were just symbolic to claim "proportional response".

Would they waste expensive as hell BVR missile on Mig 21 and that too multiple ones when they have Su30 as tempting target? Also why would they target Indian aircraft at all when both are in their respective air space? Shooting down an aircraft qualifies very well as act of war that too in your aggression on military targets. In combination this is asking for trouble and diplomatic harakiri.

It feels like Mig sneaked into WVR combat with f16, shot one down and got shot, when PAF saw Su30 around they started firing both in self defense and to get something meaningful instead of old Mig 21 after losing their best jet.

Don't know what happened but it doesn't make sense to start suicidal firing at a beast and invite it's wrath in a symbolic proportional response to destroy few trees of each other. Something spooked them could be downing of f16.
Agreed & to add to that, if multiple BVR were indeed fired at Mig21 in WVR (ridiculous), assuming true, even then Mig21 when it were hit, was bright enough target for long enough time, for other missiles aimed at it to hit it too. not be the cause why other assets deep in got hit or near miss in case of Su30 as accidental targets of BVM missiles as implied by @Falcon.
 
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I am still clueless about the identity of the two Indians pilots who were shot down and were at large as claimed by DGISPR on 27th Morning. Someone posted here that maybe two JF-17s were also downed. Could it be that those two supposedly Indian Pilots who were at large were actually JF-17 pilots? I am just thinking aloud and not stating that this is what happened.

Please share whatever you know

Infact on Feb 21 , there was a news going for on a while That a Paf plane had crashed
 
Intresting, but even if they fired when Mig was closer to Su30 contrary to what media claims it still was intent to kill and unwarranted escalation given that their ground target were just symbolic to claim "proportional response".

Would they waste expensive as hell BVR missile on Mig 21 and that too multiple ones when they have Su30 as tempting target? Also why would they target Indian aircraft at all when both are in their respective air space? Shooting down an aircraft qualifies very well as act of war that too in your aggression on military targets. In combination this is asking for trouble and diplomatic harakiri.

It feels like Mig sneaked into WVR combat with f16, shot one down and got shot, when PAF saw Su30 around they started firing both in self defense and to get something meaningful instead of old Mig 21 after losing their best jet.

Don't know what happened but it doesn't make sense to start suicidal firing at a beast and invite it's wrath in a symbolic proportional response to destroy few trees of each other. Something spooked them could be downing of f16.

They knew That Su 30 would be on CAP
That day

And their Aim was clear , to down One Su 30

But they failed and lost One F 16 instead
 
Agreed & to add to that, if multiple BVR were indeed fired at Mig21 in WVR (ridiculous), assuming true, even then Mig21 when it were hit, was bright enough target for long enough time, for other missiles aimed at it to hit it too. not be the cause why other assets deep in got hit or near miss in case of Su30 as accidental targets of BVM missiles as implied by @Falcon.

Abhinandan was hit by a Paf plane lying and waiting in Ambush inside POK

All 24 didnt come close to LOC

Some F 16 s were firing Amraam

They were at the Southern end

Some JF 17 were in an area north to the Ground target
 
he doesn't see Pakistan entering the FATF black list coz once that happens Pakistan economy would be in a free fall and that's the last thing the international community would want
Fifthly he forsees much more complications with Iran thanks to KSA investment in Gwadar for an oil, gas & petrochemical complex. That means curtains for the IPI & TAPI pipelines.More dependence on KSA and more reason why Pakistan deep state will be forced to destabilize Iran on US / KSA's bidding.
He is definitely reading my posts here :eek: just kidding but this exactly what I have been saying from over 6 months now, that things are going to get better for Pakistan, funding via Saudis is approved to target Iran and exit from Afghanistan.
the Kashmir issue is finally internationalised. He points out to most prominent international media organizations and Think Tanks devoting more space than necessary on the present Indo Pak imbroglio. There couldn't be a better advertisement for Kashmir and India's repression there.

I feel on similar lines, Congress even with incompetence was able to keep Kashmir issue dead, even when it was by paying Hurriyet and Pakistan, tough in long run it was real bad for India but in short term it made Kashmir issue irrelevant.

On Kashmir day ISPR motivates local news channels to discuss Kashmir, almost every anchor on that had a retired military personnel telling about Kashmir and all that but they were incredibly sad that issue is dead and not picking up heat. They use to conduct interviews of Pakistani public and nobody was showing any interest in Kashmir beside the usual bla bla bla.

But a change occur after BJP came to power and started taking tough tone w.r.t to Pakistan and Kashmir, it may not have changed ground realities but Pakistanis felt disrespected and also a grudge against Modi made Kashmir a topic of debate every other day in Pakistan. Then came Raheel Sharif and he invested a lot in Kashmir by regular speeches, cfv and terrorist attacks. He was able to make Kashmir hot, combined with our own BJP government.

So for Pakistan BJP presented an opportunity to radicalize Kashmiris on lines of Islam and Hindu vs Muslim and make it international topic, thanks to our motor mouth ministers top to bottom they just made it worst and it became headline of everyday. Then we let social media unregulated in Kashmir which helped in creating Burhan Wani, the killing of whom provided a massive propaganda value and most of that propaganda was done by Indians, starting with Barkha Dutt who washed all his sins and then left parties notorious for their love with violence and terrorism kept that issue alive.

Indian express facebook cover pic and endless articles daily on how we are losing Kashmir and how a greatest ever freedom fighter was killed in cold blood and what not. An information war was unleashed on us exaggerating things many many folds and in all this both our government and security agencies did nothing. Only RW trolls tried countering that propaganda on social media, it was spectacular failure.

Snakes were organizing students protests in JNU and other universities to "highlight" imaginary rapes/killings by Indian security forces and our goverment did nothing. When they did tried to crack down another spectacular idiot Rahul Gandhi went to support such anti national activities without even knowing what he is walking into.

Rest is history then, country got divided, manipulated, agitated, always angry, both sides. I was a Pakistan watcher, use to keep a close eye on Pakistan on daily news and what's happening and I saw this in real time, Kashmir, from complete irrelevance frustrating Pakistani military thinkers to Nuclear flash point. Pakistan played her cards very well and we walked right into it most of the time.

Whom to blame? Decide yourself.
 
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Abhinandan was hit by a Paf plane lying and waiting in Ambush inside POK

All 24 didnt come close to LOC

Some F 16 s were firing Amraam

They were at the Southern end

Some JF 17 were in an area north to the Ground target
I agree with you, just disputing Falcon that Abhinandan coming too close, and in effect to ward off Mig21 Pakistan shot a lot of BVRAAM missles, which later hit other IAF assets falling deep inside & SU30 near misses was due to this fact,
Instead Deliberate attack on Su30 did happen. Su30 might have ducked, which hit other targets reported down that day
 
Agreed & to add to that, if multiple BVR were indeed fired at Mig21 in WVR (ridiculous), assuming true, even then Mig21 when it were hit, was bright enough target for long enough time, for other missiles aimed at it to hit it too. not be the cause why other assets deep in got hit or near miss in case of Su30 as accidental targets of BVM missiles as implied by @Falcon.


My Dear Sir.

Find attached under the screenshot of my post in another forum. Please note the date.

1.PNG

I believe a write up of the aircrafts being over Udhampur has just come in public domain with citation of the IAF 221 Sqn being put up? So how did I know this one?


They were cited for effectively jamming multiple AIM-120Cs.

Now why would someone cite an officer for jamming missiles fired at own self? I do not think that we have reached that stage where we will now cite people for saving themselves.

So, perhaps the citation was for provision of jamming protection for the complete package? (the other mig-21s and Mirage-2000s)

And as far as I am aware, the Mig-21 bagged the F-16 it was chasing and was bagged by another F-16. So, one can assume that the F-16 which struck the Mig-21 (or JF-17 if one wants) was fired at by an aircraft facing the Mig-21 and not away from it? So, it can be that the same could be well outside the 10 km on their side of LC that would have constituted a technical violation and thereby disallowed Su-30 MKIs to engage them? And that would also mean that the Mig-21, which was in WVR of its prey and known to be outside the protective layer of the jammer, could have indeed been engaged by a BVR missile as a 'burn through" was achieved as the Mig-21 moved to the periphery/crossed the protective zone?

Or is that possibility - of staggered aircrafts in sky at differing altitudes, neigh impossible?
 
My Dear Sir.

Find attached under the screenshot of my post in another forum. Please note the date.

View attachment 5144

I believe a write up of the aircrafts being over Udhampur has just come in public domain with citation of the IAF 221 Sqn being put up? So how did I know this one?


They were cited for effectively jamming multiple AIM-120Cs.

Now why would someone cite an officer for jamming missiles fired at own self? I do not think that we have reached that stage where we will now cite people for saving themselves.

So, perhaps the citation was for provision of jamming protection for the complete package? (the other mig-21s and Mirage-2000s)

And as far as I am aware, the Mig-21 bagged the F-16 it was chasing and was bagged by another F-16. So, one can assume that the F-16 which struck the Mig-21 (or JF-17 if one wants) was fired at by an aircraft facing the Mig-21 and not away from it? So, it can be that the same could be well outside the 10 km on their side of LC that would have constituted a technical violation and thereby disallowed Su-30 MKIs to engage them? And that would also mean that the Mig-21, which was in WVR of its prey and known to be outside the protective layer of the jammer, could have indeed been engaged by a BVR missile as a 'burn through" was achieved as the Mig-21 moved to the periphery/crossed the protective zone?

Or is that possibility - of staggered aircrafts in sky at differing altitudes, neigh impossible?
Here you claim differently, refreshing your memory
You are claiming that they targeted Su-30 MKI, they are claiming a kill of the same, what if the AIM-120C were the multiple lauches of AAM at Mig-21 Bison which was shot down? Remember it was operating under the protective top cover of Su-30 MKI which were jamming? That would mean that the Mig-21 was ahead and below?

And they were in their airspace and ours were in our, heading westwards, a lucky shot could have led to the aircraft crashing across LOC, just like Mig-21, if indeed Su-30 MKIs were targeted.



Who said we are preparing for war?
Hence my claim
Agreed & to add to that, if multiple BVR were indeed fired at Mig21 in WVR (ridiculous), assuming true, even then Mig21 when it were hit, was bright enough target for long enough time, for other missiles aimed at it to hit it too. not be the cause why other assets deep in got hit or near miss in case of Su30 as accidental targets of BVM missiles as implied by @Falcon.
I agree with you, just disputing Falcon that Abhinandan coming too close, and in effect to ward off Mig21 Pakistan shot a lot of BVRAAM missles, which later hit other IAF assets falling deep inside & SU30 near misses was due to this fact,
Instead Deliberate attack on Su30 did happen. Su30 might have ducked
 
I agree with you, just disputing Falcon that Abhinandan coming too close, and in effect to ward off Mig21 Pakistan shot a lot of BVRAAM missles, which later hit other IAF assets falling deep inside & SU30 near misses was due to this fact,
Instead Deliberate attack on Su30 did happen. Su30 might have ducked, which hit other targets reported down that day

Are you referring to Mi 17 helicopter
That crashed more than 150 km from LOC

It was either an accident or Friendly fire
By our own manpad
 
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What did you miss ....:

the what if?

I shall be honoured if you read it very carefully.
funny, if Su30 is on Cap & Mig21 is in ORP-1, then who is giving jamming support, as far as I understand, Mig21 was pretty far away for any meaningful jamming support when it went down
Besides your implications were quite certain, that mig21 was the reason why some Aim came flying towards Su30
 
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