India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[LoneWolfSandeep]

Didn't she write an article about how the mig 21 incident shows the need for F-16 for India? I would hold my judgement on that.

Those are all propaganda/ arms lobbyist pieces of junk article, best to ignore. Today it may be called it a F-21 tomorrow who knows, just to sell, they may call it F-100. No matter how much branding/sugar coating you do to a tommator, it still does become a hand grenade.

 

[Guynextdoor]

India and Pakistan ON BRINK OF WAR after ceasefire BROKEN by ‘deplorable war crimes'

India and Pakistan ON BRINK OF WAR after ceasefire BROKEN by ‘deplorable war crimes'
THE INDIAN Army has killed “two dozen” Pakistani soldiers and civilians as the two nuclear nations teeter on the brink of a devastating war - despite a ceasefire being called weeks ago.


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As much as I hate British media, the news is now trickling out. @Falcon was right. DGISPR will not be able to contain this for too long.

This will DEFINITELY have an effect on Pee Dee Eff....most of them run grocery stores in Birmingham and read Express News. @safriz what's your take bro?

 

[Butter Chicken]

That article is being aired by NDTV(as expected)

 

[Guynextdoor]

This will DEFINITELY have an effect on Pee Dee Eff....most of them run grocery stores in Birmingham and read Express News. @safriz what's your take bro?

Foreign POlicy is a pretty respected publication. Question is are the commanders ready to officially back this up. Else this might be her putting the interests of the arms dealers up front.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.

How authentic is this news..

@Falcon

The US is required to make public the records containing detailed information of end use monitoring of US made assets. Even if US doesn't issue a press statement on this topic, a simple Freedom of Information act request will yield the requisite details. We might be just a few days away from an official aircraft count being made public.

We have to prepare for the possibility of no F-16s being found missing from PAF inventory. The implication of this will be massive. The IAF and GOI will lose any credibility with national and international media and more importantly, with it's citizens. The IAF's credibility will have been permanently eroded, never to be regained. Its very reputation as a credible, capable force will be decimated in eyes of people who matter, and consequently, the loss of deterrence the Air Force Should present to potential hostiles.

Reputation once lost at such a level will never be regained, no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it.

@Falcon , it is absolutely the prerogative of the IAF and the GOI to release information/proof. But by being conservative wrt to information sharing, whilst the other side now may have third party evidence to back up its own evidence, the narrative will decisively shift to IAFs disadvantage.

You've already seen people clinging to the words of whoever is spreading rumors, due to the lack of adequate information. If the US statement does appear, IAF now risks losing the confidence of the very people whom they asked to believe in them

20 years back a nation chose not to take into confidence its citizens. It backfired lick a mule kick to the crotch. We now stand at the same precipice. The IAF and GOI chose not to take the people into confidence. Now they might not have the confidence of the same very people when this is over. And that will be a far more dangerous long term problem

 

[Ashwathama]

The US is required to make public the records containing detailed information of end use monitoring of US made assets. Even if US doesn't issue a press statement on this topic, a simple Freedom of Information act request will yield the requisite details. We might be just a few days away from an official aircraft count being made public.

We have to prepare for the possibility of no F-16s being found missing from PAF inventory. The implication of this will be massive. The IAF and GOI will lose any credibility with national and international media and more importantly, with it's citizens. The IAF's credibility will have been permanently eroded, never to be regained. Its very reputation as a credible, capable force will be decimated in eyes of people who matter, and consequently, the loss of deterrence the Air Force Should present to potential hostiles.

Reputation once lost at such a level will never be regained, no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it.

@Falcon , it is absolutely the prerogative of the IAF and the GOI to release information/proof. But by being conservative wrt to information sharing, whilst the other side now may have third party evidence to back up its own evidence, the narrative will decisively shift to IAFs disadvantage.

You've already seen people clinging to the words of whoever is spreading rumors, due to the lack of adequate information. If the US statement does appear, IAF now risks losing the confidence of the very people whom they asked to believe in them

20 years back a nation chose not to take into confidence its citizens. It backfired lick a mule kick to the crotch. We now stand at the same precipice. The IAF and GOI chose not to take the people into confidence. Now they might not have the confidence of the same very people when this is over. And that will be a far more dangerous long term problem

About your last paragraph. What incident are you talking about. Kargil war?

 

[Butter Chicken]

Today early morning around 4 AM , IA conducted a strike on PA BOP opposite DegwarSector of Poonch & killed all 4 PA troopers.Earlier this BOP was vacant by PA due to IA offensive action.They just joined the position yday evening & got killed by IA

https://twitter.com/x/status/1114034897088155649

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

The US is required to make public the records containing detailed information of end use monitoring of US made assets. Even if US doesn't issue a press statement on this topic, a simple Freedom of Information act request will yield the requisite details. We might be just a few days away from an official aircraft count being made public.

We have to prepare for the possibility of no F-16s being found missing from PAF inventory. The implication of this will be massive. The IAF and GOI will lose any credibility with national and international media and more importantly, with it's citizens. The IAF's credibility will have been permanently eroded, never to be regained. Its very reputation as a credible, capable force will be decimated in eyes of people who matter, and consequently, the loss of deterrence the Air Force Should present to potential hostiles.

Reputation once lost at such a level will never be regained, no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it.

Between India-Pakistan - One country has a long history of back tracking on stated disclosure/claims, that's history is as long as the country itself. Its a case of counting eggs too soon, with time confirmation will come, someone has already laid the groundwork to backtrack, from earlier no F16 used to, backtrack time once again.
Facts will come out in due time.

 

[DivineHeretic]

About your last paragraph. What incident are you talking about. Kargil war?

Yes. Pakistan Army in 1999. Refused to take into confidence its own population because damned civis. Suddenly found themselves without the trust of the very people they denigrated.

 

[Sathya]

Not just that , like mentioned timing of such news..

Even if it s proven wrong subsequently , some damage will be done in elections .

We ll see how far the fire is spreading ..

This is going to force US/ India to comeout with more info..

 

[Guynextdoor]

The US is required to make public the records containing detailed information of end use monitoring of US made assets. Even if US doesn't issue a press statement on this topic, a simple Freedom of Information act request will yield the requisite details. We might be just a few days away from an official aircraft count being made public.

We have to prepare for the possibility of no F-16s being found missing from PAF inventory. The implication of this will be massive. The IAF and GOI will lose any credibility with national and international media and more importantly, with it's citizens. The IAF's credibility will have been permanently eroded, never to be regained. Its very reputation as a credible, capable force will be decimated in eyes of people who matter, and consequently, the loss of deterrence the Air Force Should present to potential hostiles.

Reputation once lost at such a level will never be regained, no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it.

@Falcon , it is absolutely the prerogative of the IAF and the GOI to release information/proof. But by being conservative wrt to information sharing, whilst the other side now may have third party evidence to back up its own evidence, the narrative will decisively shift to IAFs disadvantage.

You've already seen people clinging to the words of whoever is spreading rumors, due to the lack of adequate information. If the US statement does appear, IAF now risks losing the confidence of the very people whom they asked to believe in them

20 years back a nation chose not to take into confidence its citizens. It backfired lick a mule kick to the crotch. We now stand at the same precipice. The IAF and GOI chose not to take the people into confidence. Now they might not have the confidence of the same very people when this is over. And that will be a far more dangerous long term problem

I don't think that's necessarily the impliation. Abhinandan fired a missile with a lock just before he himself took a hit and bailed. Maybe it didn't hit/ didn't sufficient damage to bring down the jet. A reasonable assumption that it should have gone down is not off the mark if you ask me.

 

[suryakiran]

Let us be clear. The objective is not 1 plane or 2 planes or 16 SSG soldiers. Its do degrade the capabilities of the opponent. This will need to be done using all necessary means. Physical degradation and mental degradation.

If this requires lying to degrade them mentally, so be it.
If that requires us to lie to create doubts in their minds, so be it.
If that requires us to inflict collateral damage, so be it.

We need to stop thinking like the Pakistanis. Win a skirmish and lose the war. We need to win the war. And everything towards that objective is acceptable.

 

[Ashwathama]

Let us be clear. The objective is not 1 plane or 2 planes or 16 SSG soldiers. Its do degrade the capabilities of the opponent. This will need to be done using all necessary means. Physical degradation and mental degradation.

If this requires lying to degrade them mentally, so be it.
If that requires us to lie to create doubts in their minds, so be it.
If that requires us to inflict collateral damage, so be it.

We need to stop thinking like the Pakistanis. Win a skirmish and lose the war. We need to win the war. And everything towards that objective is acceptable.

Eh, no. You do realise that if it's conclusively proven that we are lying it will impact us for decades. People are trusting on our narrative because the IAF(not the modi or any other govt) has credibility and trust of people. God knows what would happen if that trust is broken. Both @vstol Jockey and @Falcon have said that a Pakistani f-16 was downed and the pilots are dead. Foreign policy is considered a decently respectable publication. The situation is somewhat worrying.

 

[Sathya]

Let us be clear. The objective is not 1 plane or 2 planes or 16 SSG soldiers. Its do degrade the capabilities of the opponent. This will need to be done using all necessary means. Physical degradation and mental degradation.

If this requires lying to degrade them mentally, so be it.
If that requires us to lie to create doubts in their minds, so be it.
If that requires us to inflict collateral damage, so be it.

We need to stop thinking like the Pakistanis. Win a skirmish and lose the war. We need to win the war. And everything towards that objective is acceptable.

We all agree with that..
However saying that way ta mounts to agreeing to we were lied.

I hope that s not the case.

I would have hoped it be Jf17 if not F16 .. Since every one seems to agree 2 more Parachutes seen. Someone admitted in Hospital other than Abhinandhan .

Let us not weaken our position by jumping to other narratives.

But I am still sticking to F16 & wait for Pentagon news release .

Btw I also bit concerned about details falcon given along with GTI ..
Maybe unrelated .. But needs some confirmation in that aspect too..

 

[suryakiran]

Eh, no. You do realise that if it's conclusively proven that we are lying it will impact us for decades. People are trusting on our narrative because the IAF(not the modi or any other govt) has credibility and trust of people. God knows what would happen if that trust is broken. Both @vstol_jockey and @Falcon have said that a *censored* f-16 was downed and the pilots are dead.

At the end of the day, the narrative belongs to the victor. You really think, anybody will care whether we shot down an F-16, if we take parts of PoK and start capturing Pakistani posts when the fog of war clears?

Even vstol and falcon are no longer part of the armed forces. What makes you think, they may also be knowing the truth and are helping the MoD spread rumours? They are ex-services personnel. If you think, they are going to give anything not already approved for circulation, you are sadly mistaken. What would you do, if they turned up and said, we said all this, but it was part of psy-ops. Then what?

Let the military do its job. Its job is not to keep the civvies happy. Its job is to deliver on their assigned objective.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Today early morning around 4 AM , IA conducted a strike on PA BOP opposite DegwarSector of Poonch & killed all 4 PA troopers.Earlier this BOP was vacant by PA due to IA offensive action.They just joined the position yday evening & got killed by IA

https://twitter.com/x/status/1114034897088155649

This Babaji has single handedly defeated the entire propaganda machine of ISPR. They are completly on the backfoot and just don't have a counter to this Babaji.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Let me ask you this -

Have you lived thru the Punjab insurgency!? The inexorable rise of Bhindranwale? The slaughter of Hindus and Sikhs by him, his agents and his masters - PA & the deep state , precisely in this order?
i have.
(I'm not even getting into the area samaj roots and the Akali reform movement since the late 19th century and the early 20 th century. Please read up in it, if you're interested.)

When newspapers in Bombay & Delhi would scream in their headlines 25 killed by terrorists or less or more.!

I have.

Have you lived thru the "Rubaiya Sayeed crisis, " when JKLF under dead man walking Yasin Malik kidnapped the Daughter of Mufti Mohmmed Saeed in lieu of a ransom & freedom of arrested terrorists? "

I have.

Have you lived thru the Mumbai riots of 1992-93 when in a distant town like Ayodhya, a nondescripit mosque was demolished & Muslims here & the rest of India were outraged & went on the rampage only to be countered by the January riots in Jan 1993 in Mumbai, to which they countered with Pak help in the March 1993 Bombay bomb blasts?

I have.

I can go on...

Can you ?

Then there's the 2006 train bombings on 6/11 or 11/6 followed by the 26/11 attacks on 26 /11 in 2008

It's bad enough to hear barkha dutt, rajdeep saradesai etc on why bombay deserves its fate. Then we have you & this forum.

Man how old are you?!!! You are pre historic, it's really way older than I thought.

The US is required to make public the records containing detailed information of end use monitoring of US made assets. Even if US doesn't issue a press statement on this topic, a simple Freedom of Information act request will yield the requisite details. We might be just a few days away from an official aircraft count being made public.

We have to prepare for the possibility of no F-16s being found missing from PAF inventory. The implication of this will be massive. The IAF and GOI will lose any credibility with national and international media and more importantly, with it's citizens. The IAF's credibility will have been permanently eroded, never to be regained. Its very reputation as a credible, capable force will be decimated in eyes of people who matter, and consequently, the loss of deterrence the Air Force Should present to potential hostiles.

Reputation once lost at such a level will never be regained, no matter how anyone tries to sugar-coat it.

@Falcon , it is absolutely the prerogative of the IAF and the GOI to release information/proof. But by being conservative wrt to information sharing, whilst the other side now may have third party evidence to back up its own evidence, the narrative will decisively shift to IAFs disadvantage.

You've already seen people clinging to the words of whoever is spreading rumors, due to the lack of adequate information. If the US statement does appear, IAF now risks losing the confidence of the very people whom they asked to believe in them

20 years back a nation chose not to take into confidence its citizens. It backfired lick a mule kick to the crotch. We now stand at the same precipice. The IAF and GOI chose not to take the people into confidence. Now they might not have the confidence of the same very people when this is over. And that will be a far more dangerous long term problem

My confidence in IAF was shaken the day they ducked when fired upon multiple times knowing very well that this particular moment is going to haunt them. This refuge in ROE looks more of an excuse, no ROE restrains you when you are fired upon.

This article is good, now GoI will be forced to come clean, citizens pressure may not matter to them but international rumours will force the hand. I have little doubt that F16 was shot but one of the videos makes me belive Mig 21 was shot first and F16 was not a direct kill, either way come clean or lose credibility and learn.

 

[vstol Jockey]

This article is good, now GoI will be forced to come clean, citizens pressure may not matter to them but international rumours will force the hand. I have little doubt that F16 was shot but one of the videos makes me belive Mig 21 was shot first and F16 was not a direct kill, either way come clean or lose credibility and learn.

There are multiple videos which show F-16 hit and falling down and Mig-21 making a hard turn and after that falling down. The two parachutes opened much before the third one. Do you still want proof?

 

[DivineHeretic]

At the end of the day, the narrative belongs to the victor. You really think, anybody will care whether we shot down an F-16, if we take parts of PoK and start capturing Pakistani posts when the fog of war clears?

Even vstol and falcon are no longer part of the armed forces. What makes you think, they may also be knowing the truth and are helping the MoD spread rumours? They are ex-services personnel. If you think, they are going to give anything not already approved for circulation, you are sadly mistaken. What would you do, if they turned up and said, we said all this, but it was part of psy-ops. Then what?

Let the military do its job. Its job is not to keep the civvies happy. Its job is to deliver on their assigned objective.

It's not that straightforward. Historically, history has been written by the Victor's because more often than not they were the ones who completely dominated the dissemination of information. We don't live in that world anymore

Furthermore, if, and it's a big if at this moment, it comes to light that IAF was indeed bested in an aerial engagement, in home turf on a simple air intercept defence, the GOI, this govt and any other in the future, will never have any confidence again to conduct another aerial strikes again. And that would be the true strategic loss of this event.

As for the final part, of course it's not the job of the military to keep civvis Happy. However, as the Americans found out in 1960s, if you don't take the populace into confidence, or if they lose confidence in you, it becomes impossible to carry out, conduct operations.

If the population begins to feel that their own forces are inferior or have lost, reality be damned, the peace lobby becomes overwhelmingly dominant and peace at any cost becomes the national mood. And if that happens this time in India, make no mistake the blame likes entirely with the military and govt for not taking the people into confidence.

 

[HighWest]

Wow. The Lockheed dalal atricle has set off some pretty incredible dhoti shivering on our side. If we are going to demand answers on gains and losses after every single engagement, we really are not ready for a long haul conflict.