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3. Its natural forces and its leadership will distance from political clutter. May be had this time been not election time, you would have seen the proof. Not now. Forces most likely don't want to be seen as supporting a particular party.
Exactly. Just a fortnight back, Congress spokesperson Mr. Surjewala accused IAF Chief of making political statements when he praised Rafale. It is for this reason that other than routine matters, Indian Armed forces have stopped tweeting about the situation at LOC and we have Babaji in their place.
 
The trouble is that we need proof for everything. Why? A lot (read clearly - a lot NOT all - dont flame me here) of us want it to win petty online duels with Pakistanis. Some of us have a nagging fear about actually losing to Pakistanis. Others simply have a curiosity.

None of these reasons mean jack shit to the IAF. Its task is to protect India's interests not convince people of its accomplishments. Releasing information is a double edged sword. You prove a point but you also let the other side know of your capabilities.

Let PAF release radar data from 27 Feb. I say IAF should not release anything.
 
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This line of believing chief is being repeated so many times without addressing the issue.
We trust him, he claimed that one day after the fight which means he would have done his due diligence and ascertained the facts before claiming the kill. On day 1 it was called 'an aircraft' next day only it was formally announced it was f16. But issue is when we have evidence why are letting these conspiracy theories develop? Indians will belive but other military powers won't see it with suspicion after every claim we put not much to substantiate it? For Indians if you even lost everything you will be supported, maybe people become little angry but the end of day it's our force, our people bonded closely, the claims are not made for us but for whole world and mostly for Pakistani public..

Most of the world doesn't care for this little conflict. Visit any forum or any big website like reddit with thousands of comments and 99% of them will be closer to "These two countries at it again?" Any professional force and govt. will be aware of the reality already and will not be swayed by propaganda. Should we give out ELINT, radar signatures and expose the capability of our forces just because some lady wrote an article on some website ?


If such doubts keep arising will any Jihadi fear retribution? They will infact feel encouraged that their force fought for them and won over bigger enemy, is this how we plan to create a deterrence? We put the proofs and they deny it that's a different story, our evidence is credible enough so publicly they may not accept but deep inside every Pakistani will know what happened and PAF cheated again. Surgical strikes were accepted by majority in Pakistan and were disoriented with fear even when they denied it. They may say something in public but they knew this happened.

We should not be concerned what that country thinks of us, or their military. From 71 to Kargil they fed their people human manoeuvre
in the form of propaganda and in all of these instances the truth came out eventually. Propaganda is a waste of time in the large scheme of things IMHO.

This all look more problematic because doubts on air strikes are already there without complete information, now this only compound the problem. This excuse of somehow giving up or exposing our capacity to enemy also doesn't really make much sense. Show them to all other countries officials, get formal statements if this is really so secret..

Who is having doubts? not you(hopefully), not me, not folks in this forum and not everyone I have spoken to here. Why should we be so focused on convincing people we are right ? Why should other countries interfere in an India-Pakistan issue and make statements. What do you want countries to say ? What official statement ? You want some govt. official of some country to claim we bombed Balakot. For what reason? Exposing our capabilities is not an "excuse", excuses are used when you have failed to achieve something and you need a reason for it. Do you really believe we hit Balakot, or are you doubting it ?


Not everything is about believing or not believing chief, they are only making it more suspicious and doubtful by not coming forward. Wait till poltical mudslinging start and see the reputation tank even in own country, let it become big and try salvaging later. What a mess.

It is about believing and not believing. Suspiscious and doubtful for whom ? For Indians ?, Pakistanis ? Is the word of an Air Chief not enough, or should we do live telecast of operations with Arnab Goswami giving running commentary from his studio ?


Your entire response is basically "We need more Proof".
 
The trouble is that we need proof for everything. Why? A lot (read clearly - a lot NOT all - dont flame me here) of us want it to win petty online duels with Pakistanis. Some of us have a nagging fear about actually losing to Pakistanis. Others simply have a curiosity.

None of these reasons mean jack shit to the IAF. Its task is to protect India's interests not convince people of its accomplishments. Releasing information is a double edged sword. You prove a point but you also let the other side know of your capabilities.

Let PAF release radar data from 27 Feb. I say IAF should not release anything.
No one is asking PAF to prove that they shot down a SU-30MKI. No one is asking DGISPR as where those four pilots are who ejected in POK including Wg. Cdr. Abhi? Did he not claim that they had two Indian Pilots with them of which one was in CMS and two others were at large but within the area.
 
No one is asking PAF to prove that they shot down a SU-30MKI. No one is asking DGISPR as where those four pilots are who ejected in POK including Wg. Cdr. Abhi? Did he not claim that they had two Indian Pilots with them of which one was in CMS and two others were at large but within the area.

Yes, Its only the IAF in this country which is subjected to such intense scrutiny by their own countrymen. Instead we should be asking PAF these questions and putting Pakistanis on the defensive.
 
Official statement of IAF. Pl note platforms in air and specificity of claim.

Reiterated, data is available. Let them embarass themselves more.
AWACS moved to the area when the fight was already on. They got airborne after the Aerostat radars picked up this large number of aircraft getting airborne and becoming a single formation over North Pakistan Punjab.
 
During Kargil, we gloated when the powers that be released intercepts of Pervert Busharraf talking to his cronies about the Kargil infiltration. We said it proved our stand.

Did that push them back? Did we stop losing men after that? Did it make any change on the ground? A big NO. The west already knew that the Mujahid story was bunkum. In our eagerness we lost what could have been a juicy source of intel. Please dont push the govt. to do it again.
 
the problem is that Foreign Policy is not an obscure entity. It is a fairly well regarded publication.
Janaab don't go by "Value Signaling". All of these are business and for the right price they will do what you ask them. I have myself seen some pretty pretty hairy stuff by some very very reputed sources.

Our problem as Indians --as especially for job class indians-- is that we take the names very seriously.
PS : The above is a general observation and not an insult/remark on you my friend.
 
1. Forces --and especially Indian forces-- are not exactly PR firms. They have responsibility to protect Indian territory and not to convince Indian public. Thats politician's job. Pakistan is different, there politicians and forces are one and the same.
Is that why we dont have Republic day Parade, military exercises, air shows, adverts and even ADGPI? Come on now, nobody is asking to be ISPR style propagandist atleast not let world create doubts on your capabilities.

2.Current trend of asking forces to take part in political settings is something not liked by the forces and their leadership as well. Remember, VK singh didn't like forces to be referred as "Modi's Forces"? They are Indian forces and they don't want to be dragged in a political debate. Proving Modi has 56 inch chest is Modi's headache --And yes, it is this what it is coming to for most of Indians. Forces serve GoI, not Modi or BJP.
I fail to understand the relevance, anyway doesn't matter.

3. Its natural forces and its leadership will distance from political clutter. May be had this time been not election time, you would have seen the proof. Not now. Forces most likely don't want to be seen as supporting a particular party.
Last I heard the proof was provided to the government and also it is government's prerogative to ask for whatever is there and release it if they are comfortable, forces dont have the say in it, GoI and MoD take precedence over military arms. It wont be considered favouring any party, even if Govt. send troops in harms way for purely political advantage they are bound to follow it unless some court intervene which is rarity. So it is not related to elections.

Do you belive in God? Have you ever seen him? has he manifested himself to you or anyone?
Sir, I am not anti Modi or anti Army, infact opposite, I am worried about the reputation of both being tarnished internationally, its better to arrest it before the damage is done otherwise we can always wake up late.

The trouble is that we need proof for everything. Why? A lot (read clearly - a lot NOT all - dont flame me here) of us want it to win petty online duels with Pakistanis. Some of us have a nagging fear about actually losing to Pakistanis.
I am not on any other forum, dont even read them unless some exclusive is shared by someone mutual I read a bit and leave, I am not interested in winning online with delusional Pakistanis and I strongly believe Indian military will kick *censored* of Pakistan anytime, any day anywhere.

Let PAF release radar data from 27 Feb. I say IAF should not release anything.
Others are doing the bidding for PAF and the image they released of 4 missiles was rejected as a joke but if you think closely it was no joke, warhead was missing but seeker was there, even if the seeker was ejected some thousands of feet above the ground on unknown location and warhead struck the plane how were they able to find the seeker? It was not a large object but a small little few inches long seeker falling over nowhere with unknown speed how can you find it in such a vegetated mountainous terrane? This coupled with the video where Mig was shot first (atleast I think so) is not a small thing to be disregarded. Unless they forged the seeker and borrowed it from some other country(China).

If someone shows the pictures of seekers recovered during exercise then should remember the exercises are held over the known area, you dont know where you are going to have a dogfight. Pakistani posters are laughed off but we should not stop thinking critically and that does not make me anti national.
 
Have Proof Pakistani F-16 Shot Down, Says Air Force; Refutes US Journal Report

There will be few who want to take a different line just because political compulsion.... But one need to introspect whom do you beleieve the most... A journalist from US or your own chief

Not interested in bharat mata arguments. CHief knows well enough that there is a propoganda war
Janaab don't go by "Value Signaling". All of these are business and for the right price they will do what you ask them. I have myself seen some pretty pretty hairy stuff by some very very reputed sources.

Our problem as Indians --as especially for job class indians-- is that we take the names very seriously.
PS : The above is a general observation and not an insult/remark on you my friend.

right now everyone should accept that there is an information war out there and losing it is a real loss. Saying 'we have proof' is not enough. They need to release it and prove it.
 
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I am not on any other forum, dont even read them unless some exclusive is shared by someone mutual I read a bit and leave, I am not interested in winning online with delusional Pakistanis and I strongly believe Indian military will kick *censored* of Pakistan anytime, any day anywhere.

Read my post again. Some NOT All

If someone shows the pictures of seekers recovered during exercise then should remember the exercises are held over the known area, you dont know where you are going to have a dogfight. Pakistani posters are laughed off but we should not stop thinking critically and that does not make me anti national.

Questioning is not wrong. In fact it is much needed. You can question the IAF - that does not make you an anti national. But also understand that sometimes there are larger reasons that might prevent you from getting the answers. We are after all on the same side.
 
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Most of the world doesn't care for this little conflict.
They do, there are two UNSC resolutions going on right now triggered by same event and public become curious when we claim we shot down f16 with Mig21.

Why should we be so focused on convincing people we are right ?
Because we made the claim, a big claim, wont be a problem if we didnt. Israel strikes Iranian targets regularly in Syria but barely they announce and even before announcement videos are made public.

Your entire response is basically "We need more Proof".
No sir, the entire response is why the hell are we in such a situation even after taking considerable risk, executing a strike deep inside Pakistan without any loss and almost doing the magic of killing an F16 with soon to retire Mig21. Learn to differentiate between both.
 
No one is asking PAF to prove that they shot down a SU-30MKI. No one is asking DGISPR as where those four pilots are who ejected in POK including Wg. Cdr. Abhi? Did he not claim that they had two Indian Pilots with them of which one was in CMS and two others were at large but within the area.
Yes, Its only the IAF in this country which is subjected to such intense scrutiny by their own countrymen. Instead we should be asking PAF these questions and putting Pakistanis on the defensive.
Because IAF is not PAF, we dont want that kind of reputation when everyone knows whatever they are saying is a lie so no point in questioning more lies will come out. I seriously hope we are not looking for that kind of reputation.

During Kargil, we gloated when the powers that be released intercepts of Pervert Busharraf talking to his cronies about the Kargil infiltration. We said it proved our stand.
In our eagerness we lost what could have been a juicy source of intel. Please dont push the govt. to do it again.
Did we? Did we lose that juicy source of intel? Do we not have the capacity of intercepting the signals now just because we made it public?
 
right now everyone should accept that there is an information war out there and losing it is a real loss. Saying 'we have proof' is not enough. They need to release it and prove it.
Honestly, the only proof FOP has presented as "some un-named senior sources in Pentagon who have direct visibility in this matter". Nothing more. Shall we apply the same standard to them too? This is BTW, not even circumstantial evidence.

Lastly lemme take a leaf from @Falcon 's book.

1. Election time last moment.
2. Congress desperately looking for any crack to hit its opponents on this Balakot.
3. US has a law which prevents any kind of legal proceeding to force a journalist to reveal its sources. She is iron-clad safe.
4. US has LM which will like to sell the same F-16 to India.
5. LM has deep lobbies/contacts in Pentagon.
6. Congress has deep pockets.
7. US is capitalism, everything is on sale.

What is the obvious conclusion?
 
right now everyone should accept that there is an information war out there and losing it is a real loss. Saying 'we have proof' is not enough. They need to release it and prove it.

This information war is slightly relevant because of the upcoming elections. Other than that, it literally has no relevance.

For example, let's say IA has taken Haji Pir Pass. PA vehemently denies this on Twitter. And all Indians believe PA's story on Twitter. But during negotiations, PA decides to end all cross-border hostilities and terrorism as a state policy in exchange for return of Haji Pir, and then they stick to this for the next 20 years or more. In such a situation, how relevant do you think information war really is versus ground realities?
 
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This information war is slightly relevant because of the upcoming elections. Other than that, it literally has no relevance.

For example, let's say IA has taken Haji Pir Pass. PA vehemently denies this on Twitter. And all Indians believe PA's story on Twitter. But during negotiations, PA decides to end all cross-border hostilities and terrorism as a state policy in exchange for return of Haji Pir, and then they stick to this for the next 20 years or more. In such a situation, how relevant do you think information war really is versus ground realities?

No. The information war has no relevance to Elections. Modi's fate is sealed. He will neither win nor lose because of this. If you want to believe in conspiracy theories go ahead. But as of now India's diplomatic posiiton has been heavily compromised because of mismnaged communications with the international community.
 
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