India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

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Nilgiri said:
Got a little treat for you all in the mean time (posted in closed forum of ex-military types of all flavours...mostly from NATO):

Mr. X: Isn't the major point of contemporary aircraft to make conditions favorable for their older siblings?

Mr. Y: Well, yes, but the Indians made a point of not committing their front-line aircraft in order to avoid compromising WARMs.

Mr. X: Also, is this really SAD at work, since it appears the Indians were not jumped, and the whole point of SAD is a high tech dive out of the sun and kill them before they know you are there? Isn't this shaping up more like a furball, especially given that the Indians with their inferior aircraft not only got their shot off, but the pilot survived and the rest of his flight got out?

Mr. Y: The ultimate expression of SAD is that the victim gets shot down by a missile he didn't see coming fired from an aircraft he didn't know was there. There is a corollary to that which applied here. If one side has a solid BVR capability and the other does not, SAD is used to conceal the situation from the side with BVR until we're down to knife-fight range. In a way this can be compared to a sniper vs a pistol-fighter. If the sniper does it right, the pistol-fighter gets killed before he/she/it even knows he is in danger. The pistol fighter can even things up by depriving the sniper of situational awareness and forcing a close-range battle where the odds are at least even and arguably favor the pistolman.

Nailing an F-16 in a close-in knife fight while flying a MiG-21 is (professionally) a win for the MiG pilot. If what we are assuming is correct - and everything is speculation right now - he did well to get the F-16 even if he lost his Bison in the process.

There's another hypothesis doing the rounds that suggests the IAF pilot got the F-16 but lost control of his MiG in the process and had to bail out. Knowing the flying characteristics of the MiG-21 Bison (think rabid rattlesnake on crack), that's really plausible.


(Mr. X is ex-USAF.....Mr. Y is ex-RAF...wont disclose any more than that)

@Falcon @Austerlitz @vstol Jockey et. al.

I will post more tidbits from there (the thread is already developing) as time goes by....they also much appreciate me giving some good updates away from media noise and twitter BS.

I will also try refer any of your best questions to them.
Click to expand...

Is this from f-16.net?
 
BlackOpsIndia said:
Don't you have anything else to say but to repeat same thing again and again? Are we not aware of what happened that you need to repeat it in such a pessimistic tone again and again? Losing a officer is not that big a thing in war that you are obsessed with. Ot boils our blood but don't lose your mind.

Nobody, no nation have attacked and made a mockery of other nuclear powered nation ever and we have done it twice with impunity. Those laughing at us should be shown mirror, even the best of them are right now as we speak are negotiating terms of surender to militant wing of ISI.

Read Vstol and other veterans, or watch ISPR conference and Imran Khan address you will know the situation of Pakistan right now. The decent treatment at least on camera to IAF pilot is not out of their goodness but they are literately begging not to escalate and if our pilot was not captured they would have cooled things down. Our pilot getting captured is what fkd up their calculations, otherwise they would have cooled down their public with mere dropping few kg bombs on empty fields.

There was very high propaganda going on last night to make Pak Army victorious in some twitter battle. Claims as big as killing 30 Indian soldiers and capturing 20 posts were made and Pakistanis were actually believing it. Morning symbolic raids were enough to make their public belive that they retaliated with overwhelming force. They could have believed their army shot down Indian helicopter and things could have been cooler but IAF plane getting shot down is what destroyed all and now we have no option but to hit again.
Click to expand...


Be that as it may, let's not forget that barring China in its border clashes with USSR, no N armed nation has baited another N armed nation as consistently as Pakistan has with India beginning in the mid 80's with their not so covert support to the Khalistani terrorists.

In the battle leading up to a war (?) , not only must we win but we must be seen to be winning. Which means we need to nail our conquests with evidence. I still see some hesitation w. r. t backing up our claims with proof. Modi seems more keen to bolster his image with minimal action than to getting positive results on the ground. Witness the release of photographs / videos of the so called surgical strikes a full two years after they were prosecuted. Where was the need for that? This wasn't lost on the Pakistanis.

By claiming in excess of 300 fatalities and providing no proof for the same, he followed up on his earlier game plan. Except that this made the Pakistani top brass look foolish. In retrospect, they responded in what they claim to be a tit for tat. Target our military installations but falling short of it due to the presence if the IAF CAP, jettison the bombs and fly back. Something they claim we had done yesterday.They probably imagine that we'd go one notch higher without offering any proof once again leaving them to refute it and spring another trap as today.

In today's scenario, if we are faced with an adversary like Pakistan, who know they have little chance of outmanoeuvring us in a full scale conventional war, they'd utilise all these tricks and more to claim victory in every little encounter we have with them. As I wrote before they seem to be playing the game of chicken. It's up to us to follow suit or escalate it beyond their imagination with tangible & irrefutable proof to back up our claims.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Be that as it may, let's not forget that barring China in its border clashes with USSR, no N armed nation has baited another N armed nation as consistently as Pakistan has with India beginning in the mid 80's with their not so covert support to the Khalistani terrorists.
Click to expand...

Iran comfortably beats Pakistan in that respect.
 
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vstol Jockey said:
Our Officer in Pak custody today is most likely an Indian from either Karnataka or from the God's own country. We have to get him back. Come hell or high water.
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Wing Co. is from Chennai Sir. Pakistanis full on psyops. (sourced from a Pakistani twitter account)
 

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vstol Jockey said:
The relationship between Tamils and malayalies is like that of we Haryanavies and Punjabies. We haryanavies are willing to accept defeat from anyone but a Punjabi. Tamils were part of Malayali Kingdoms after demise of Cholas. AND that is why a Keralite will never bow to a Tamil and vice versa.
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You have no idea how wrong you are.... I am a mallu who work on Tamilnadu.... let is keep this away for another day....
 
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randomradio said:
Iran comfortably beats Pakistan in that respect.
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In which manner, can I ask? Do you have the Iranians openly confront the Israelis or the US or even Pakistan the way Pakistan clashes with India day in and day out in the LoC? I'm not bringing up the subject of proxies here.
 
Austerlitz said:
I realise what you say to be true,but until we answer posts like yours are no balm.Only action will satiate the nation now.Hopefully it comes within next 2 days.However i contest you claim that they didn't want to shoot down our plane,they were waiting in a trap deliberately.Maybe IK didn't want to escalate,but PAF certainly wanted to mend its prestige after balakot and get a trophy,they now need to be shown the error of their ways.

I am not being pessimistic,i am being realistic,this is not a war for territory -this is a war of perception and military damage.That is what we should target -real damage to their military to make them realise terror sponsoring has its steep price and control the narrative.
Right now we are unconfirmed on hardware damage ,and are losing the narrative/information war.
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_Anonymous_ said:
Be that as it may, let's not forget that barring China in its border clashes with USSR, no N armed nation has baited another N armed nation as consistently as Pakistan has with India beginning in the mid 80's with their not so covert support to the Khalistani terrorists.

In the battle leading up to a war (?) , not only must we win but we must seem to be winning. Which means we need to nail our conquests with evidence. I still see some hesitation w. r. t backing up our claims with proof. Modi seems more keen to bolster his image with minimal action than to getting positive results on the ground. Witness the release of photographs / videos of the so called surgical strikes a full two years after they were prosecuted. Where was the need for that? This wasn't lost on the Pakistanis.

By claiming in excess of 300 fatalities and providing no proof for the same, he followed up on his earlier game plan. Except that this made the Pakistani top brass look foolish. In retrospect, they responded in what they claim to be a tit for tat. Target our military installations but falling short of it due to the presence if the IAF CAP, jettison the bombs and fly back. Something they claim we had done yesterday.They probably imagine that we'd go one notch higher without offering any proof once again leaving them to refute it and spring another trap as today.

In today's scenario, if we are faced with an adversary like Pakistan, who know they have little chance of outmanoeuvring us in a full scale conventional war, they'd utilise all these tricks and more to claim victory in every little encounter we have with them. As I wrote before they seem to be playing the game of chicken. It's up to us to follow suit or escalate it beyond their imagination with tangible & irrefutable proof to back up our claims.
Click to expand...

If this is war of perception then at the end of it only the winners word will be credible. This all going now is transitory and won't enhance image of Pakistan in anyway unless they win the war completely.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
In which manner, can I ask? Do you have the Iranians openly confront the Israelis or the US or even Pakistan the way Pakistan clashes with India day in and day out in the LoC? I'm not bringing up the subject of proxies here.
Click to expand...
Dont bother about Iran. We have their balls in our hand which we can squeeze the day we want. Forget Chabahar.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
In which manner, can I ask? Do you have the Iranians openly confront the Israelis or the US or even Pakistan the way Pakistan clashes with India day in and day out in the LoC? I'm not bringing up the subject of proxies here.
Click to expand...

With the exception of the LoC, which is normal, the proxy war with Israel has primarily been funded by Iran. Hezbollah.

Israel has been bombing Iranian military targets in Syria for years now.
In rare move, Israel confirms attacking Iran forces in Syria
 
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BlackOpsIndia said:
If this is war of perception then at the end of it only the winners word will be credible. This all going now is transitory and won't enhance image of Pakistan in anyway unless they win the war completely.
Click to expand...
To begin with, I very much doubt there's going to be a war whether a long drawn out one or a short intense one. To my mind it's just a game of tit for tat as of now. A lot of evidence points out to that. We haven't mobilized. Our air traffic for the rest of the nation barring J&K and parts of Punjab is normal and functional.

I guess the instructions passed on to the armed forces top brass by Modi is do to something spectacular. That's it. No battle goals, no plans of unleashing the full might of our armed forces, no mobilsation , nothing.

And do you know why? Same old story. We aren't in a position to win an overwhelming conventional war against Pakistan.

Hence, we'd keep playing this game of chicken with them with incremental increases in stakes till the world led by the US and egged on by China decide to call for a ceasefire - 1965 style. Both sides can claim a win then.
 
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randomradio said:
With the exception of the LoC, which is normal, the proxy war with Israel has primarily been funded by Iran. Hezbollah.

Israel has been bombing Iranian military targets in Syria for years now.
In rare move, Israel confirms attacking Iran forces in Syria
Click to expand...
I'm referring to direct confrontations. Not battles by proxies. You're indulging in subterfuge. Just like the Iranians. Besides, since when is Iran a N power, self declared or not.
 
vstol Jockey said:
The relationship between Tamils and malayalies is like that of we Haryanavies and Punjabies. We haryanavies are willing to accept defeat from anyone but a Punjabi. Tamils were part of Malayali Kingdoms after demise of Cholas. AND that is why a Keralite will never bow to a Tamil and vice versa.
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as far as i know being here for past 10 years, telugu, tamil,kannad and malyali they all hate each other. anyways let me not disturb you with this silly things.
 
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Are we seriously discussing who hates whom within Indian states ?:confused::confused:

And on this thread ?

All I am currently thinking is will our Vikramaditya do the job for us or INS Kolkata.:unsure::unsure:
 
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