India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[nair]

The friendly fire angle was first brought out by mannu pubby probably with in 3 or 4 days of the incident, which was retracted later....

We have discussed without being obvious here too may be after few days.... @Falcon did hear this even before mannu brought this to public domain.... COI is not only about how the crash happened (In this case its believed to be a friendly fire) How did the whole incident played right from the take off.... If such thing has happened that means SOPs were not followed at multiple levels (Even if we consider the "fog if war" angle)... COI is not like a normal police investigation where they provide the running commentary thru leaks .... This normally get released once all the facts are found... IAF may release it firnpublic consumption they may push it under the carpet as the primary consumer of the enquiry is IAF, MOD and they already know the cause and actions would have been taken in case of any culprits or to avoid the same in future....

Now When a retired colonel want to play politics that is when things get ugly.....Even for the slap in his face tweet by IAF (they did not even use his rank when named) There was a reply which says IAF did not deny the friendly fire angle..... IAF replied his articles political or deliberate delay angle..... If you notice this was picked up by Prashanth booshan and played politics...... COI will be released only when it is completed.... And there wont be any trailers.....


On the split side There is some learning for the current regime too.... If start taking political mileage of armed force actions there would be reactions from opposition too.....But end of the day it is the armed forces which is in the receiving end.... that's not gonna do any good to ther morale......

 

[_Anonymous_]

You do know that during gulf war, US Army released even lesser info. Failure of patriot system to defend US bases against scud was not fully revealed for quite some time. Heck, Chinese military hides way too much about its actions and inactions. Last but not the least, PA itself denied to divulge how many of their personnels were killed. All of these are as professional forces as it gets.


IMHO, purpose of army is to fight a war and to defend borders. We are expecting too much information. This entire thing is due to current obsession with fact checking and truthers and information glut. I know I am of the same kind but I know my pre-disposition.

Last but not the least. The basic billion dollar question. Who are the target of this propaganda war? Defence personnels? Doubt it. Common Indians? They don't care. World community? They have better ways to know and they have their own agenda, Have you read Foreign Policy journal writing and how it is paddling the US MIC sales pitch?

China & Pakistan are national security states. I doubt whether the most senior echelons of their armed forces knows what many of their rank in democratic countries do as far as being in the loop goes. That's how police states operate..As far as the Gulf War -1 goes, I'm guessing you've weren't born then. The entire coverage was broadcast live with reporters embedded in infantry vehicles & helicopters. That's how CNN made its reputation and became what it's today.


All the issues you raised were discussed then. Touched upon is the more appropriate word. Not discussed in detail. Why was it so? Because the US is as much of a raucous democracy as we are. They drew the right lessons from the Vietnam War and planned their propaganda accordingly. That's right. I used the word propaganda. Because that's what CNN and other embedded news reporters did.

That's what we ought to learn from. Which is why I mentioned the Kargil war coverage. That was as slick an event management as any. May I ask why was that undertaken? After all its the same armed forces that we're talking about. Why did we have to know that Tololing had just been re captured or the assault on Tiger Hill was on going. What difference did that make you our lives? How many Indians could actually point out Kargil on a map leave aside mountain tops with alphanumerical or Ladhakhi / Shinwari / Burushaski names? And this was 20 years ago.

Another small point more to do with IQ & EQ than other tangibles. As a finance minister, once you slash a tax on an item of popular consumption, you don't hike it again the next time but either retain the same rate or reduce it. You could hike it too but it could cost you the next election. Now these issues don't bother the CCP or the PLA as professional as they may be. Nor the PA.

Finally we're splitting hair. Didn't the IAF in its own internal assessment deem it necessary to remark that they wish that they had handled the information dissemination in a better manner. If this isn't admission that they were wrong in withholding info or information management, then I don't know what is?

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

I will say this much : Who demands this information and who cares about this information? Against whom is this info-war being fought?

We here are exception, we are 'geeks' to put it bluntly. Defence 'geeks'. Most people in the country will not be able to tell an AK-47 and AR-15 apart. For them if IAF chiefs said what they said and army chiefs said what they said is enough. It used to be enough for a lot of us as well once upon a time... Till we started getting interested in it and started looking deeply.

Honestly, most Indians will be more concerned with "SCAM" in Rafale deal. Heck, a large majority will believe in Scam by default without looking into any details.

It's about masses, a misinformation campaign can prioritize "return of Abhinandan right now" over big picture of punishing Pakistan and motivating them for irreversible behavior change.

Army don't have final say politicians does and they are influenced by public opinion, the same opinion if not shaped properly can help enemy. Didn't we just saw the live example of it? With whole left shifting focus from Pakistani terrorism to return of Abhinandan and then claiming it a defeat?

Doesn't matter how strong your army is, if your politician is feeling heat you have to back off, that's what make it important to get ahead of things. Negative news, scare mongering, misinformation, political opponent cashing on it makes strongest of leader to act weak.

 

[RATHORE]

If start taking political mileage of armed force actions there would be reactions from opposition too

If a Government/Leader finally shows the balls to discard all nuclear blackmail, turn Pakistani deterrence on its head, hit back overtly on Pakistani territory while also carving out space for future pre-emptive action against terrorism/ conventional warfare, and best of all - beating Pakistan at its own madman routine - literally causing the b*stards to sweat like never before; then he gets to take a big, well deserved chunk of credit too, and he also gets to use it to score political points for re-election.

The opposition, which at this point are little more than pawns for external enemies and nurturers of internal enemies, can go f*ck themselves.

 

[madrao99]

Looks like DJ Ghafoor is cooking something up for tomorrow 
DG ISPR to address important press conference on Monday

 

[Shajida Khan]

It's about masses, a misinformation campaign can prioritize "return of Abhinandan right now" over big picture of punishing Pakistan and motivating them for irreversible behavior change.

Army don't have final say politicians does and they are influenced by public opinion, the same opinion if not shaped properly can help enemy. Didn't we just saw the live example of it? With whole left shifting focus from Pakistani terrorism to return of Abhinandan and then claiming it a defeat?

Doesn't matter how strong your army is, if your politician is feeling heat you have to back off, that's what make it important to get ahead of things. Negative news, scare mongering, misinformation, political opponent cashing on it makes strongest of leader to act weak.

These are two very different issues:

1. Lack of politic will commit to a much larger military operation on Pakistan.
2. The public outcry for release of Abhinandan.

Why? Because as you might remember when this entire incidence started, the government just wanted to avoid escalation... Sushma god-damned Swaraj was going to worthless places like China and OIC and telling "We don't want escalation", "We don't want escalation"! This was before Abhinandan was captured.

There was not much impact of opinion shaping anywhere. Political class was simply not interested in any further escalation.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

These are two very different issues:

1. Lack of politic will commit to a much larger military operation on Pakistan.
2. The public outcry for release of Abhinandan.

Why? Because as you might remember when this entire incidence started, the government just wanted to avoid escalation... Sushma god-damned Swaraj was going to worthless places like China and OIC and telling "We don't want escalation", "We don't want escalation"! This was before Abhinandan was captured.

There was not much impact of opinion shaping anywhere. Political class was simply not interested in any further escalation.

People I talked to disagree, there was lot in store, ready to be implemented but things got south with bad optics.

Don't read too much into Shushma Swaraj statement about peace or de-escalation, these are pretty standard scripts, read in time of crisis to avoid global backlash and score few brownie points. Always see the intent and action, that means much more than statements. Today PM is high on statement low on action, that time he was low on statements and high on action. You can also analyze how much TV time was devoted after dogfight to Abhinandan you may be surprised and that's what shape public opinion.

Today public is content with whatever action is taken so all the future plans to straighten Pakistan are put in cold storage. If public was still outraged we will be seeing lot of action as politicians will be nervous.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Baba seems to have opened his cards. I always knew that he is an insider eventhough many people here thought otherwise. I told you guys that he is part of hybrid warfare. His posts on tweeter are not only for informing us but also for fooling Pakistan. I had done the course in counter intelligence in Navy and know how these games are played. He is open source double agent. I hope you know what an open source double agent is? Rajdeep, Prannoy, Shekhar, Sagarika and Barkha are open source Pak agents.

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

Red line - Approx 750m wide 1.5km deep
Another infiltration/dagger

 

[nair]

Check out @bababanaras’s Tweet:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122542071284285440

Baba giving interview on Twitter Baba doing QnA

 

[screambowl]

Pakistan mein ghus jayenge, Su30 maar denge, Naag missile chala denge, combat karenge , SF bhejenge , LOC active karenge. yeh mortar ga gaya woh pinaka gaya..Omg what a international strategy, and strategic affair. oh Strategic action by deploying satellite..

In sab se kuch nahi hoga.. if you can't protect your civilians' health , education and standard of living! Have we built our forces to protect the corrupt parliamentarians and chors in government? Useless!!

 

[screambowl]

1. Lack of politic will commit to a much larger military operation on Pakistan.

kya political will yaar

Who will compensate the loss which the small shopkeepers near border region will bear. And who will compensate the loss of industrialist. No one in India wants war. Only twitterati and facebookers. What happened to our Jet Airways, and who is going to employ 22000 employees?
If people wanted war, it would have had happened. Yeh sab bekar ki batein hai!
Jab karna hota hai tab kartey nahi and later people shout yeh karenge woh karenge.

 

[Butter Chicken]

#BREAKING: Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says, the behaviour change that India wants in Pakistan Army will never happen. In short, Pakistan Army says, state sponsored terrorism by Pakistan in Kashmir will never end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122806609367842816

Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says India should remember that this is not Pakistan of 1971. If Pak Media existed in 1971, things wouldn’t have been the same. Says, Pak Media is efficiently exposing India. Old wounds don't heal easy. Ghaav Gehre Hain. Clearly.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122813149722238976

 

[screambowl]

Ghafoora is playing game.
He is blaming RAW and NDS for the protest in KPK.
He is saying they have traced the money back to Indian consulates in Af.
damn!!!

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

'Don't test our resolve,' DG ISPR tells India at press conference - DAWN.COM

Don't test our resolve, we don't want to surrender again, please forgive us, let us go.

What he said and what he actually meant.

 

[LoneWolfSandeep]

No offense, but what a apt name @screambowl you kept,
everytime a picture of Im the Dim come to my mind SCREAMING with his BEGGING BOWL, must be national slogan of Ghafoora State.

 

[Guynextdoor]

#BREAKING: Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says, the behaviour change that India wants in Pakistan Army will never happen. In short, Pakistan Army says, state sponsored terrorism by Pakistan in Kashmir will never end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122806609367842816

Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says India should remember that this is not Pakistan of 1971. If Pak Media existed in 1971, things wouldn’t have been the same. Says, Pak Media is efficiently exposing India. Old wounds don't heal easy. Ghaav Gehre Hain. Clearly.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122813149722238976

he called an entire press conference to say this? Tell him we've known this for decades. Vela baitha hai koi kaam dhanda nahi.

 

[noksss]

#BREAKING: Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says, the behaviour change that India wants in Pakistan Army will never happen. In short, Pakistan Army says, state sponsored terrorism by Pakistan in Kashmir will never end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122806609367842816

Pakistan Army Spokesperson DG ISPR Asif Ghafoor says India should remember that this is not Pakistan of 1971. If Pak Media existed in 1971, things wouldn’t have been the same. Says, Pak Media is efficiently exposing India. Old wounds don't heal easy. Ghaav Gehre Hain. Clearly.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1122813149722238976

Pakistan army if Pak Media existed in 1971

 

[Arvind]

China & Pakistan are national security states. I doubt whether the most senior echelons of their armed forces knows what many of their rank in democratic countries do as far as being in the loop goes. That's how police states operate..As far as the Gulf War -1 goes, I'm guessing you've weren't born then. The entire coverage was broadcast live with reporters embedded in infantry vehicles & helicopters. That's how CNN made its reputation and became what it's today.


All the issues you raised were discussed then. Touched upon is the more appropriate word. Not discussed in detail. Why was it so? Because the US is as much of a raucous democracy as we are. They drew the right lessons from the Vietnam War and planned their propaganda accordingly. That's right. I used the word propaganda. Because that's what CNN and other embedded news reporters did.

That's what we ought to learn from. Which is why I mentioned the Kargil war coverage. That was as slick an event management as any. May I ask why was that undertaken? After all its the same armed forces that we're talking about. Why did we have to know that Tololing had just been re captured or the assault on Tiger Hill was on going. What difference did that make you our lives? How many Indians could actually point out Kargil on a map leave aside mountain tops with alphanumerical or Ladhakhi / Shinwari / Burushaski names? And this was 20 years ago.

Another small point more to do with IQ & EQ than other tangibles. As a finance minister, once you slash a tax on an item of popular consumption, you don't hike it again the next time but either retain the same rate or reduce it. You could hike it too but it could cost you the next election. Now these issues don't bother the CCP or the PLA as professional as they may be. Nor the PA.

Finally we're splitting hair. Didn't the IAF in its own internal assessment deem it necessary to remark that they wish that they had handled the information dissemination in a better manner. If this isn't admission that they were wrong in withholding info or information management, then I don't know what is?

Beauty !!

 

[Golden_Rule]

DGISPR Ghafoor admits that he is a goofer

DG ISPR Ghafoor admits Initial claim of ” Two Indian Pilots ” in custody was error on his part – Indian Defence Research Wing