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Wishful thinking, very wishful thinking infact.
You think if there's another Pulwama, given the way we conducted the Balakote strikes giving Pakistan plausible deniability, anything else is possible? Those camps will be folded up in advance or shifted deep into FATA or Balochistan. What else will remain for us to target? Let me tag @Falcon and pick his brains here.

I don't think you've derived the right lessons then from the entire episode. The aim of the GoI under Modi is two fold - elimination of terrorists from Pakistani soil under the garb of non military pre emption, in the event of another Pulwama type outrage and showing PA's impotence.

The former was achieved. The optics was bad giving the PA plausible deniability. Hence the latter part wasn't completely achieved. I don't think this particular GoI, were it re elected and were it to face another Pulwama, will likely repeat the same mistake.
 
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We have capability, never said we didn't, they too know that but we have the will? MA, HS in tight security is precaution, few months from now he will be attending rallies in open, I won't read anything in those NOTAM, they are over very limited areas and are our only source of joy these days.


If we had to conduct a symbolic strike in Balakot to drive a message why not firing over the mast of GHQ if we really meant business? They didn't hesitate in targeting our brigade HQ, that too after declaring upfront and in daylight. Though things didn't pan out as they planned but still they clearly showed intent and our intent is always missing with half hearted attempts and half hearted efforts.


Did we not know that a major attack will happen, it's not the matter of if but when. We knew this in 2014 when Modi and Doval took charge, what capability we developed during these 5years to avenge the upcoming threat or neutralize Hafiz Saed and Azhar?



It's not easy to take them out, I doubt if we can even take them out without significant loss on our side too and then fearing retaliation. If we had that capacity MA would be the target not Balakot. We wait, wait and wait till enemy is fully prepared and then say it's not possible now, be content with whatever we achieved. Why there is no set pre planned, pre gamed strategy to deal with this inevitable outcome? Why not strike within hours of attack and surprise them? Its Parliament attack deja vu all over again with minor changes here and there, we are moving, we are mobilizing, be afraid of us, be very afraid of us but then we vanish.

Your threat has no value if you don't have intent to follow up. Modi's red lines are thoroughly probed by Pakistan and his 2nd term will see more and bigger attacks. He chickened out on night of 27th when everything was set. Now he himself admitted he is happy with mere return of Abhinandan as it earned him some good PR. International pressure and other things means nothing to a suicidal nation only brute force and pain can keep them in control.



They may well be attending rallies, call for jihad and raise funds. How good will that look when their case comes up for review in September in the FATF? Those NOTAMs are like alcohol. A slow poison. They're taking its toll. It's just not fast enough or powerful enough for our liking.

Which brings us back to the age old question. How do tackle Pakistani sponsored terrorism? Do we keep it overt or do we go covert? Irrespective of our wish lists, certain milestones and actions on our end have clearly fallen into a pattern. Enough for us here to chart out a path the GoI, irrespective of which party's at the helm of affairs, taken.

We aren't in the covert business. If we are, it's pretty evident that it's low key. Meaning it's insignificant for it to make a difference to Pakistan. That rules us out of supporting the Baloch insurrection or even the upcoming Pashtun struggle not to mention the TTP or the civil Rights movement on in PoK or even the MQM.

Our reaction is overt as Balakote demonstrated along with diplomacy. If you agree to this, then you'd also have to agree that an escalation matrix cannot be plotted as this is the first time we've reacted the way we have.

Let's understand that there's been no precedence for us to follow either in our relationship with Pakistan or any such lesson to be learnt in world affairs too where in one N power actively aids, abets and indulges in terrorism against another N power.

Hence, you'd have to give our security managers and planners a bit of the benefit of doubt in that this is learning curve for them too and this learning has been steep.


I've partially answered your post earlier. To elaborate - what exactly happened vis a vis our response on the 27 th Feb is a mystery. My conjecture is the GoI didn't anticipate it and probably asked the IAF to observe purely defensive duties based in part, in all probability, on the IAF's own assessment apart from other sources.

What also comes out starkly, is Operation Gaganshakti and all the hoopla surrounding it, notwithstanding, the IAF in its present form is out of its depths. You may factor in depleted squadron strength , lack of desired AC, poor AD, antiquated AC in operation, etc.


The PAF action on 27th Feb jolted both the IAF & GoI out of their hubris. The GoI, in all probability, concluded that any further escalation using the IAF may be effective but also counter productive.

Let me bring in the Chinese analogy here. I read some where a long time ago that when Xi Jinping took power in 2013 , Apparently, the government there asked for a report on how favourable would the outcome be if the PLA were to indulge in a limited war across the Himalayas against India. While the details escape me, apparently, the report confirmed the Government's suspicion that the PLA lacked overwhelming superiority to prosecute China's claims and humble the Indians a la 1962. Something similar can be observed here. To conclude, no government can get into a skirmish or a war of they aren't confident of winning. And in order to win, the GoI being comprised of civilians will go by rule of thumb i. e - they won't initiate hostilities if they know we don't enjoy overwhelming superiority.


I think you ought to divorce their statements during campaigning to what they undertook after assuminy power. Let's face it. The state of affairs with respect to the conditions of our armed forces in 2014 was deplorable. Things haven't improved dramatically but they're definitely better than what we had then. That's as far as the capabilities go. Let me also reiterate all those talks that you read about our overwhelming superiority over Pakistan in every sphere of operation is just that. Talk. If we did enjoy such overwhelming superiority over them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The escalation matrix to take out a HS or a MA has just been established post Pulwama, post Balakote, post 27 th Feb, post the UN proscription of MA and everything that happened in between these events covertly or overtly.

This will be set into motion the next time you see a Pulwama type outrage.
 
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You think if there's another Pulwama, given the way we conducted the Balakote strikes giving Pakistan plausible deniability, anything else is possible? Those camps will be folded up in advance or shifted deep into FATA or Balochistan. What else will remain for us to target? Let me tag @Falcon and pick his brains here.

I don't think you've derived the right lessons then from the entire episode. The aim of the GoI under Modi is two fold - elimination of terrorists from Pakistani soil under the garb of non military pre emption, in the event of another Pulwama type outrage and showing PA's impotence.

The former was achieved. The optics was bad giving the PA plausible deniability. Hence the latter part wasn't completely achieved. I don't think this particular GoI, were it re elected and were it to face another Pulwama, will likely repeat the same mistake.

@BlackOpsIndia is correct
It is not possible that India did not have chance to eliminate all these scums on earth in Lahore and Pindi. It's just that there are as much as , may be more useful idiots in India who may risk anything and get brainwashed to take out HVT in India. And you won't be even able to frame Pakistan, because it will be political melodrama created by opposition.
This is the only reason that such games are only restricted to low level scums 'for now'.
We did carry out one HVT in Pakistan and it was Burhan Vani, who later could have surrendered and become politician in India. What happened later we know. It all started from there only.

There will not be any escalation. The max what could have happened has happened on 27th that's all. You can't go higher than air to air combat. After elections, there is possibility of small skirmish but not of this level. It's over! And you can't comment on other intelligence led ops which are routine.
 
We did carry out one HVT in Pakistan and it was Burhan Vani

Please fact check, revisit your post and frame a coherent response. Please also acquaint yourself with the concept of Snake head decapitation techniques vis a vis the Israelis and why didn't they opt for it when they confronted the PLO or Hamas or Islamic Jihad. They could've got Arafat or Shaikh Yassin at any time. Arguably this wouldn't be easy but if the Israelis stretched themselves, they could. Yet they didn't assassinate Arafat & took out Sheikh Yassin much later.
 
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You think if there's another Pulwama, given the way we conducted the Balakote strikes giving Pakistan plausible deniability, anything else is possible?
We may not have to wait long to find out, doubt Pakistan will not welcome Modi with a blast somewhere.

China will get FATF presidency so keeping Pakistan in grey list will prove very difficult, forget Blacklist. Even after this much noise and odds against them, Pakistan China were able to modify the Massod Azhar sanctioning text, worst India accepted it! Setting China free from isolation on terror for worthless listing and surrendering god knows what more. This happened when we had global support, from France to US to UK to 14 out of 15 members with us and we celebrated it as "huge diplomatic victory".

Most damaging thing of this standoff is our intent, outcome can be favorable or unfavorable, all part of operation and execution, doesn't matter much but intent is where Pakistan got better of us. In 2016 strikes we got better of them, dominated them completely.

While our crossing LoC and striking mainland Pakistan is break from past and big thing showing strong resolve and intent to penalise Pakistan with whatever success (300+ or less, doesn't matter much) Pakistan attacking us very next day in daylight, attacking Su30, brigade HQ and missing all targets, losing F16 to inferior platform is still showing stronger intent to fight us with full force even after being inferior force and against all odds. They conveyed their message loud and clear.

Not following up on this attack, threatening and then backing off for whatever reason established the very old thinking in Pakistani mind that we won't do anything, little bit here, little bit there but nothing of sort that can force them to rethink their support to terror. We should not have made any threat on the night of 27th if we never planned to follow up. International pressure and everything else is excuse to justify your pusillanimity and saving face. More interest in PR afterwards made it even worse as if we did all this for PR and took away any seriousness from it.

My posts may be hurting lot of people and I maybe branded anti national but we let them escape with lot, blunder after blunder we need to ask uncomfortable questions, see what is actually happening than living in our world like delusional Pakistanis.
 
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Please fact check, revisit your post and frame a coherent response. Please also acquaint yourself with the concept of Snake head decapitation techniques vis a vis the Israelis and why didn't they opt for it when they confronted the PLO or Hamas or Islamic Jihad. They could've got Arafat or Shaikh Yassin at any time. Arguably this wouldn't be easy but if the Israelis stretched themselves, they could. Yet they didn't assassinate Arafat & took out Sheikh Yassin much later.

You are not able to understand the response.

Burhan Vani was a HVT who could have become the leader of Kashmiris. It was isi's blued eye. He went down , the proxy war between India and Pak gained the momentum to air combat this year.

Israelis are jews, they have right over Jerusalem, like christians and muslims. That war is different.
 
Small point; but it's actually possible they did. Someone slowly killed him with Polonium (although there was also the AIDS theory). Israel denies it was them, but when have they ever owned up to such things anyways?

He was killed by polonium poisioning as was confirmed by some European agency and Russian investigators. Pinned on Israel for obvious reasons.
 
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Pakistan uses 'terrorism as tool' against India: former CIA director

PTI | Washington May 03, 2019 12:54 IST
michael_morell.jpg

Former CIA director Michael Morell

Pakistan, obsessed with India as a perceived existential threat, has "created terrorist groups to be a tool" in its struggle against India, a former top American spymaster has said.
Former CIA acting director Michael Morell, in a podcast discussion with Kurt Campbell and Rich Verma on Thursday, alleged that Pakistan is one of the most dangerous countries in the world.
Pakistan has "created terrorist groups to be a tool" in their struggle against India, Morell said.
Campbell, the former Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian Affairs and Verma, the former US Ambassador to India, now regularly host 'The Tealeaves' Podcast of the Asia Group.
"What they don't realise is that it's impossible to keep those terrorist groups under control. And that eventually comes back to bite you. You know, I believe that Pakistan, at the end of the day, maybe the most dangerous country in the world," Morell said.
Morell who played a key role in the Abbottabad raid that killed Osama bin Laden — the al-Qaeda chief and mastermind behind the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States — in a safe house in Pakistan, said that the population of this South Asian country is exploding, and the demographics are awful.
"The economy's going nowhere. It simply can't provide the jobs that need to be provided for the young people who are entering the labour force. The education system is literally broken. I went to Pakistan more often than I went to any other country when I was deputy director," he said, referring to his impression about Pakistan when he was the deputy head in the CIA during the Obama administration.
There's no wonder that many Pakistani parents send their kids to madrasa and one knows what happens to a small percentage of the kids who go there.
"The extremism is growing from a societal perspective. It's growing within the military. So, it is not impossible, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, but five years from now, 10 years from now that you could have a color revolution, Arab spring style movement in the streets of Islamabad that ends up with an extremist government there with nuclear weapons. That's what so scary," Morell said.
According to Morell, then president Barack Obama's Pakistan policy in his first term was to get the Pakistanis to see their strategic environment in a real way.
"They still see India and, I think, for foreseeable future, will see India as an existential threat to the state of Pakistan. It's not, it's just not. India stopped focusing on Pakistan a long time ago. They're focusing on their economic future," he argued.
But because the Pakistanis are so obsessed with this perceived existential threat, they've both organised their society in order to protect themselves from that threat. So, they've given an immense amount of power to the military, and much less power to the civilian government, he said.
"The government therefore makes choices that I don't believe, and many people don't believe are in the best long term interest of Pakistan. Pakistan has spent more money on nuclear weapons than they do in education.
"And they use terrorism as a tool against the Indians... and then also in Afghanistan, because they fear Indian influence in Afghanistan. So they've created terrorist groups, right to be a tool of theirs in the struggle against India," Morell added.

Source:- Pakistan uses 'terrorism as tool' against India: former CIA director
 
Pakistan uses 'terrorism as tool' against India: former CIA director

PTI | Washington May 03, 2019 12:54 IST
michael_morell.jpg

Former CIA director Michael Morell

Pakistan, obsessed with India as a perceived existential threat, has "created terrorist groups to be a tool" in its struggle against India, a former top American spymaster has said.
Former CIA acting director Michael Morell, in a podcast discussion with Kurt Campbell and Rich Verma on Thursday, alleged that Pakistan is one of the most dangerous countries in the world.
Pakistan has "created terrorist groups to be a tool" in their struggle against India, Morell said.
Campbell, the former Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian Affairs and Verma, the former US Ambassador to India, now regularly host 'The Tealeaves' Podcast of the Asia Group.
"What they don't realise is that it's impossible to keep those terrorist groups under control. And that eventually comes back to bite you. You know, I believe that Pakistan, at the end of the day, maybe the most dangerous country in the world," Morell said.
Morell who played a key role in the Abbottabad raid that killed Osama bin Laden — the al-Qaeda chief and mastermind behind the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States — in a safe house in Pakistan, said that the population of this South Asian country is exploding, and the demographics are awful.
"The economy's going nowhere. It simply can't provide the jobs that need to be provided for the young people who are entering the labour force. The education system is literally broken. I went to Pakistan more often than I went to any other country when I was deputy director," he said, referring to his impression about Pakistan when he was the deputy head in the CIA during the Obama administration.
There's no wonder that many Pakistani parents send their kids to madrasa and one knows what happens to a small percentage of the kids who go there.
"The extremism is growing from a societal perspective. It's growing within the military. So, it is not impossible, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, but five years from now, 10 years from now that you could have a color revolution, Arab spring style movement in the streets of Islamabad that ends up with an extremist government there with nuclear weapons. That's what so scary," Morell said.
According to Morell, then president Barack Obama's Pakistan policy in his first term was to get the Pakistanis to see their strategic environment in a real way.
"They still see India and, I think, for foreseeable future, will see India as an existential threat to the state of Pakistan. It's not, it's just not. India stopped focusing on Pakistan a long time ago. They're focusing on their economic future," he argued.
But because the Pakistanis are so obsessed with this perceived existential threat, they've both organised their society in order to protect themselves from that threat. So, they've given an immense amount of power to the military, and much less power to the civilian government, he said.
"The government therefore makes choices that I don't believe, and many people don't believe are in the best long term interest of Pakistan. Pakistan has spent more money on nuclear weapons than they do in education.
"And they use terrorism as a tool against the Indians... and then also in Afghanistan, because they fear Indian influence in Afghanistan. So they've created terrorist groups, right to be a tool of theirs in the struggle against India," Morell added.


Source:- Pakistan uses 'terrorism as tool' against India: former CIA director


And what did he do as a CIA director then? Gave billions to Pakistan to contain Indian economy. And destabilize the region.
 
Pakistan backs anti-India terror groups, has paid no price for its perfidy, US lawmakers told

Washington:, May 04, 2019 08:03 IST

Pakistan continues to sponsor terrorist groups that launched deadly attacks in India. “It has paid no price for its perfidy,” Bill Roggio, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies told lawmakers during a Congressional hearing early this week.
“We must continue to combat state sponsors of terror and make hard decisions about countries such as Pakistan, he added.
Referring to Pakistan’s “unwavering support” to Taliban, much to the detriment of the US in Afghanistan, Roggio also disapproved the US move to withdraw troops from there.
Its support for the Taliban has been unwavering and is leading us to defeat in Afghanistan. I would argue that we have already lost Afghanistan. We are merely attempting to negotiate the terms of our exit, he told the members of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Middle East, North Africa and International Terrorism.
The United States disengaging itself from the battle fronts would lead to an easy victory of its enemies, he cautioned.
“As our enemies have expanded their base of operations and remain committed to the fight, our will has faltered, he said.
This is a long war and commitment is key. If we hope to end this threat, we must renew our commitment and to present a united front, he asserted.
In his deposition to the panel, Mr. Roggio called for “hard decisions” by the US.
We must rethink our goals and strategy and recognise our enemies’ goals and strategy. We have to figure out a way to effectively fight our enemies both in the military sphere and the sphere of ideas,” he said.
“We must continue to combat state sponsors of terror and make hard decisions about countries such as Pakistan, he added.
Mr. Roggio also accused Iran of trying to establish an Islamic state.
Iran, which alongside Pakistan, is amongst the biggest state sponsors of terrorism, also seeks to establish an Islamic state, he said.
“It backs loyal militias in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen. These militias are organised and trained along the same lines as has been law. The long-term impact of these militias is still not fully understood,” said the anti-terror strategy and security expert.
While Iran primarily backs Shia groups, it has openly battled the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria and is not opposed to forming alliances with Sunni jihadists, said Mr. Roggio.
“This secret deal was documented by the US Treasury Department in 2011 and several times since. Pakistan also continues to harbor numerous terrorist groups and uses them as a tool of its foreign policy, Mr. Roggio said.


Source: Pakistan backs anti-India terror groups, has paid no price for its perfidy, US lawmakers told
 
It backs loyal militias in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Yemen. These militias are organised and trained along the same lines as has been law. The long-term impact of these militias is still not fully understood,” said the anti-terror strategy and security expert.
While Iran primarily backs Shia groups, it has openly battled the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria and is not opposed to forming alliances with Sunni jihadists, said Mr. Roggio.
“This secret deal was documented by the US Treasury Department in 2011 and several times since. Pakistan also continues to harbor numerous terrorist groups and uses them as a tool of its foreign policy, Mr. Roggio said.

They learnt all this from US only.

“We must continue to combat state sponsors of terror and make hard decisions about countries such as Pakistan, he added.
Referring to Pakistan’s “unwavering support” to Taliban, much to the detriment of the US in Afghanistan, Roggio also disapproved the US move to withdraw troops from there.

Yes definitely but in return he is asking India to help Americans in Afghanistan against Taliban so that India ruins it's economy. Till Taliban is under Pakistan's control, India can knock them out. Once it goes out of Pakistan's control then there will be IS situation there.
 
Don't worry, no major action in offing. Not today, not in 2021.

Rafale, S400 by 2021 but by that time Pakistan will have 5th Gen stealth from China and our plans will postpone to 2030 when our own stealth is ready, and then as per IST 8-10years of delay in indigenous 5th Gen Aircraft will push Indias plans further. Then 6th Gen aircraft, S500, S800 can come as logical reasons to postpone.

Rinse and repeat, till someone teach us principles of nonviolence and someday in a diplomatic victory we will surender POK to Pakistan and present LoC is converted to border, educating Indians how present conflict is unsustainable and surrendering POK is a better option (if Pakistan agrees).

Only wild card in this is if Modi faces problem in 2024, borders may heat up and Pakistans disproportionate escalation leads to war (only if it's electorally beneficial).

Just analyze the escalation ladder under modi to understand the difference

Uri- Openly owing Surgical strike .

Pulwama - When everyone including PA expected another surgical strike you have something done for the first time in 30 years .

Next Attack - I have no reason to not believe that indian response will be to attack a military target to send a message .

No one can help you if you think Modi made pakistan to do a Uri,Phatankot,Pulwama for his re-election.
 
Just analyze the escalation ladder under modi to understand the difference


Next Attack - I have no reason to not believe that indian response will be to attack a military target to send a message .

It's not that they are not trying big like Pulwama. It's us who are preventing such.
 
It's not that they are not trying big like Pulwama. It's us who are preventing such.
Agreed, Pakistan is indeed afraid, what will India response be, if another Pulwama happened. So yes they are preventing another one for time being. But a chameleon, never forgets to change its colour. Its their colour of fear, which makes them, this way presently. They even said, we are ok for Masood Azhar listening before he got listed in 1267, as they had no choice & no friend to put a blanket on their dirty deeds. But make no mistake they will strike again, till India makes a example out of them - 1971 revisited 4 folds.
 
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Small point; but it's actually possible they did. Someone slowly killed him with Polonium (although there was also the AIDS theory). Israel denies it was them, but when have they ever owned up to such things anyways?
That's conjecture. Besides, I was referring to overt strikes. Like the kind which took out Sheikh Yassin & his successor al Rantissi in the Hamas.
 
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We may not have to wait long to find out, doubt Pakistan will not welcome Modi with a blast somewhere.

I think the scope for big bang attacks will be limited for the time being. At least till this September.


China will get FATF presidency so keeping Pakistan in grey list will prove very difficult, forget Blacklist. Even after this much noise and odds against them, Pakistan China were able to modify the Massod Azhar sanctioning text, worst India accepted it! Setting China free from isolation on terror for worthless listing and surrendering god knows what more. This happened when we had global support, from France to US to UK to 14 out of 15 members with us and we celebrated it as "huge diplomatic victory".

China getting the FATF presidency is immaterial. China would definitely try to protect Pakistan but this isn't the UNSC where it enjoys a veto. The US and it's allies will play a huge role here.

Frankly, there's a lot of doubts being expressed by diplomatic veterans on the insistence of prescribing MA and the trade offs we've had to make, in all possibility, compromising our strategic autonomy. But the move to proscribe MA is 10 years old & was initiated when S S Menon was the NSA & MMS the PM, a fact both conveniently chose to forget today.

The modification of the text was a trade off but tell me honestly who in his right mind wouldn't know the immediate context behind hauling the MA case before the 1267 committee in the UNSC? Let's not be too bitter. Having said that I've uploaded ain interview on the SNI channel between Amitabh Revi & Vivek Katju where they delve over this aspect in some detail. Please view it.


Most damaging thing of this standoff is our intent, outcome can be favorable or unfavorable, all part of operation and execution, doesn't matter much but intent is where Pakistan got better of us. In 2016 strikes we got better of them, dominated them completely.

While our crossing LoC and striking mainland Pakistan is break from past and big thing showing strong resolve and intent to penalise Pakistan with whatever success (300+ or less, doesn't matter much) Pakistan attacking us very next day in daylight, attacking Su30, brigade HQ and missing all targets, losing F16 to inferior platform is still showing stronger intent to fight us with full force even after being inferior force and against all odds. They conveyed their message loud and clear.

Not following up on this attack, threatening and then backing off for whatever reason established the very old thinking in Pakistani mind that we won't do anything, little bit here, little bit there but nothing of sort that can force them to rethink their support to terror. We should not have made any threat on the night of 27th if we never planned to follow up. International pressure and everything else is excuse to justify your pusillanimity and saving face. More interest in PR afterwards made it even worse as if we did all this for PR and took away any seriousness from it.

My posts may be hurting lot of people and I maybe branded anti national but we let them escape with lot, blunder after blunder we need to ask uncomfortable questions, see what is actually happening than living in our world like delusional Pakistanis.

Our PR failed big time. No two views about it. The optics were terrible. Our response on 27th was tepid. Having dwelt on this issue a few posts ago, I'd restrict myself to touching up on a few salient features.

I would still give this lot the benefit of doubt and state that the path up the escalatory ladder is still being charted and the whole episode must have come as an eye opener to our security managers as well. Full marks to the PAF for it's daring initiative and for sowing doubts in the minds of the IAF & the GoI.

I don't think you've understood quite what this government was attempting. They didn't have any plans of vertical escalation at all. A bit of horizontal escalation perhaps but nothing beyond that. A response as Modi has been describing - Qatl ki Raat would be a grossly disproportionate response.His aim, the way I see it, was to intimidate them. In the event, the intimidation was successful and secured the release of our captive. But yes, the answer to the 27th hadn't been delivered and won't be.
 
A squadron on rent (like we have Russian submarine) won't be that hard provided there is incentive for China to make India suffer. Pakistan may not even need to pay in cash.

Edit:- I remember aashish told us even Russia was ready to sell them some good tech (S400 or Twin Engine jet) when our S400 deal was not concluded, expecting it from China won't be that hard.

There is nobody in the world, including the Chinese, who will allow Pakistan to buy or rent a 5th gen jet. The US definitely won't. The Russians do not have one. And the Chinese only have the J-20, which they won't give.

All Chinese export grade stuff is still in the works, and the quickest possible is 2025, but Pakistan will have to buy dozens to make the project viable.
 
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Our PR failed big time. No two views about it. The optics were terrible. Our response on 27th was tepid. Having dwelt on this issue a few posts ago, I'd restrict myself to touching up on a few salient features.

Call it psyops not PR. And we are still failing in it. . But we are failing not because we have not been able to cultivate sardesais, burkhas and etc etc in Pakistan and we will not be able to as well for obvious reasons we are failing because they have cultivated pro Pakistani psyops generals in India.
I don't think you've understood quite what this government was attempting. They didn't have any plans of vertical escalation at all. A bit of horizontal escalation perhaps but nothing beyond that. A response as Modi has been describing - Qatl ki Raat would be a grossly disproportionate response.His aim, the way I see it, was to intimidate them. In the event, the intimidation was successful and secured the release of our captive. But yes, the answer to the 27th hadn't been delivered and won't be

So finally you agree.
 
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