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On 27 Feb night,they provided us pl-15 and it is planned to be used by block 3 but block 1 and 2 can also use it if awacs can guide these missiles.this is easy solution to our problems.

AWACS can't provide fire control to such missiles. You can use it on Block 2, but it won't be any better than the Aim-120C. The only advantage is during end game, it will have an AESA seeker, so it betters the Aim-120 in that respect.

pl-12d and pl-21 both are ramjet and not for export but for pakistan,anything is possible.we are good friends.pakistan really likes fc-31.a joint project for double engine heavy fighter is a possibility.

You are overestimating Chinese help though. PLAAF won't risk giving their primary tech to Pakistan, no matter how good of a friend you are. Even they have to deal with export controls. FC-31 was made for export, so that's not a problem.
 
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Your own article says that PL-15 is too heavy for JF-17 Blk 1 & 2. Only Blk-3 is supposed to carry this. And you have yet to show me any pic or article which says that PL-15D is operational. Lot of articles state many things based on published data.
It's not pl-15d,it is pl-12d.pl-15 is operational but no news related to pl-12d.pl-21 is ramjet so basically Chinese can make missiles with ramjet technology.obviously there are variants of pl-12.one variant is surface to air missile and other three all air to air.
 
It's not pl-15d,it is pl-12d.pl-15 is operational but no news related to pl-12d.pl-21 is ramjet so basically Chinese can make missiles with ramjet technology.obviously there are variants of pl-12.one variant is surface to air missile and other three all air to air.
My mistake. I was referring to PL-12D only. That missile is not yet operational. Meteor is the only ramjet powered AAM in the world as of today. Rest are all under development.
 
It's not pl-15d,it is pl-12d.pl-15 is operational but no news related to pl-12d.pl-21 is ramjet so basically Chinese can make missiles with ramjet technology.obviously there are variants of pl-12.one variant is surface to air missile and other three all air to air.
Please go thru this article. Check its date. as of June 2017, China had only tested the ramjet propulsion twice and was yet to adopt it to any missile in its inventory. But PAF seems have to have got these missiles which do not even exist. These missiles are as operational as our SFDR Ramjet missile.
This new ramjet engine could triple the range of Chinese missiles
 
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You have just underestimated the IAF. The IAF "twiddled their thumbs" because the govt made sure that they did so by regulation. The IAF don't have clearance to shoot across the border, which was required during the Balakot skirmish.

Did you forget that even during an actual war, GoI did not allow the IAF to cross LoC?
Speculation. If that were the case why was Wing Co Abhi's plane downed and why did he pursue and down the F16 ? We don't know what the RoE were. Further, it's also speculated that the MKI's weren't mute spectators but their missiles were out of range. Hence they couldn't lock on to the targets. Moreover, as of 26th Feb, after executing Balakote, why was the IAF complacent? Didn't they know the PAF would retaliate? Except they totally underestimated the strike package. If Wing Co Abhi didn't score a kill, we would be left with an egg on our face. Losing a helo to friendly fire and another jet in a confrontation.

In Kargil, the RoE was set. The armed forces were constrained to act within those limitations. Here, we still don't know what the RoE were.
 
My mistake. I was referring to PL-12D only. That missile is not yet operational. Meteor is the only ramjet powered AAM in the world as of today. Rest are all under development.

I won't be surprised if the Chinese are finishing development or have finished development of the PL-12D and PL-21. PL-12D is supposed to be Meteor equivalent, while PL-21 is meant to be used against HVA.

As for PL-15, it should easily be a 200Km missile. Even an American General pointed out that the PL-15 outranges the Aim-120D, so it is cause for concern. That's why they are now developing the Aim-260 (dual seeker). The Aim-260 development started more than 2 years ago, right after the PL-15 was introduced and is a stop gap for their true next gen missile under LREW program (a family of two stage missiles). Point being, the PL-15 is most definitely superior to the Aim-120D to the point where the Americans had to develop a stop gap missile.

There's also a new long range missile being introduced in China.
vlraam_j-16_2.jpg


This one is supposed to have a much more longer range than PL-15, K-77M etc. Apparently as much as 400 or 500Km.
 
Speculation. If that were the case why was Wing Co Abhi's plane downed and why did he pursue and down the F16 ? We don't know what the RoE were. Further, it's also speculated that the MKI's weren't mute spectators but their missiles were out of range. Hence they couldn't lock on to the targets. Moreover, as of 26th Feb, after executing Balakote, why was the IAF complacent? Didn't they know the PAF would retaliate? Except they totally underestimated the strike package. If Wing Co Abhi didn't score a kill, we would be left with an egg on our face. Losing a helo to friendly fire and another jet in a confrontation.

In Kargil, the RoE was set. The armed forces were constrained to act within those limitations. Here, we still don't know what the RoE were.
He was told to go cold as he was crossing the LOC but he could not hear the command due to heavy jamming. This should tell you as to what the ROE were.
 
Many articles appeared in which this was stated after WC Abhi was debriefed in Delhi by IAF.
I've read them. Isn't it also true that the MKI's couldn't lock on to the targets because their missiles were out of range - a fact borne thanks to the recent import of state of the art longer range missiles? What do we make of it? That the IAF was tasked for a defensive role within our air space, where they could shoot down PAF jets but couldn't pursue them across the LoC? What sort of cock eyed RoE is that? Didn't someone high up in the IAF goof up in threat estimation on how would the PAF respond? Consequently, wasn't the speculated RoE based on such faulty threat estimation? Isn't that a classic case of hubris?
 
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I've read them. Isn't it also true that the MKI's couldn't lock on to the targets because their missiles were out of range - a fact borne thanks to the recent import of state of the art longer range missiles? What do we make of it? That the IAF was tasked for a defensive role within our air space, where they could shoot down PAF jets but couldn't pursue them across the LoC? What sort of cock eyed RoE is that? Didn't someone high up in the IAF goof up in threat estimation on how would the PAF respond? Consequently, wasn't the speculated RoE based on such faulty threat estimation? Isn't that a classic case of hubris?

My take is one of the reasons for the restricted ROE was to prevent IAF aircrafts from falling into to the trap of SAMs dotting POK. SAM deployment is dynamic and hence difficult to ascertain the threat from the same.

Pakistanis would have backed up their strike with SAM coverage to take care of any persuing IAF fighters.

IAF fighters don't have MAWS , only RWR , which is not adequate to provide all around threat detection.

Indian military is not Pro active , only reactionary . They awake only when their asses are kicked , did they not know previously that their BVRAAMs were lacking range ? Why were they sleeping ?

We always blame Indian defence industries etc but the Indian military is at par with them when it comes to complacency and dereliction of duty
 
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My take is one of the reasons for the restricted ROE was to prevent IAF aircrafts from falling into to the trap of SAMs dotting POK. SAM deployment is dynamic and hence difficult to ascertain the threat from the same.

Pakistanis would have backed up their strike for with SAM coverage to take care of any persuing IAF fighters.
Please refer to Op Gaganshakti, where the IAF having decimated the PAF inside of 3 days after flying innumerable sorties were transferred to the Eastern Front.

If these are the inputs on which the IAF is war gaming, God forbid, what the future portends!
 
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Please refer to Op Gaganshakti, where the IAF having decimated the PAF inside of 3 days after flying innumerable sorties were transferred to the Eastern Front.

If these are the inputs on which the IAF is war gaming, God forbid, what the future portends!

Wargaming is wargaming, not real war.

So better taken with a pinch of salt
 
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Speculation. If that were the case why was Wing Co Abhi's plane downed and why did he pursue and down the F16 ? We don't know what the RoE were. Further, it's also speculated that the MKI's weren't mute spectators but their missiles were out of range. Hence they couldn't lock on to the targets. Moreover, as of 26th Feb, after executing Balakote, why was the IAF complacent? Didn't they know the PAF would retaliate? Except they totally underestimated the strike package. If Wing Co Abhi didn't score a kill, we would be left with an egg on our face. Losing a helo to friendly fire and another jet in a confrontation.

In Kargil, the RoE was set. The armed forces were constrained to act within those limitations. Here, we still don't know what the RoE were.

You have to first understand that this entire scenario was over a relatively long period of time, many hours, and will have seen many feints.

When you are not at war, an attacker always has the advantage because the attacker chooses the time and place. So when the F-16s actually attacked the MKIs, the MKIs had no idea that they would be attacked. Why? Because the PAF will have launched many such "attacks" over a long period of time without actually doing anything. Imagine the two of us worked at the same office. Every time I see you, I always raised my hand in a position that is ready to slap you every time I passed by you, but I never slapped you, so you never know if I'm being serious or not. But what if one day I did slap you? And once I slapped you, it would take time for you to regain your composure again. But what happened during Balakot is, after I slapped you and you were out of the picture for a few seconds (MKI), your friend sitting in a cubicle that I didn't notice decided to fight back and took me by surprise (Mig-21).

After the F-16s (me) fired at the MKIs from their own land, the MKIs (you) went cold. At full range, the Aim-120C has 2 minutes of flight time. So, in this window, while the MKIs were escaping from the initial volley, 3 F-16s entered our airspace. Even after those two minutes are up, the MKIs still need more time to return to position and become a threat once more, which could be a minute or even two minutes. PAF expected that their 3 F-16s would have finished their task by this time and would be returning home. But they didn't expect the Mig-21 (your friend) to be around to jump on the 3 F-16s. The Mig-21s finished the work in less than 2 minutes.

As for why Abhi pursued the F-16s, it's obvious that the F-16s entered our airspace and wanted to attack us, that's why he gave chase. When the MKIs were facing the F-16s, the MKIs wouldn't have been able to tell if it was an actual attack or a feint. It was only after the Aim-120s were fired (slap) that the MKIs would realise they were under attack after all.

Firing at Dmax (full range of the missile) is utterly useless. This is even less likely to work during war, when borders become irrelevant.

You will also notice from the IAF's radar images that once they lost their F-16, the F-16 closest to the Mig-21, that was probably trying to help the F-16 that went down, went cold. So those 2 MKIs had likely become dangerous to them by then.

Obviously we do not know what the RoEs were. But there have been reports that even after the MKIs were attacked, the MKIs did not get permission to retaliate, probably because the controllers expected the Mig-21s to do the job. Also there were reports that even Abhi was asked to back off.
 
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The IAF don't have clearance to shoot across the border
The IAF "twiddled their thumbs" because the govt made sure that they did so by regulation.
Yet Abhinandan went across, shot one down and not yet court marshalled for disobeying order!

How far are we willing to go in denial? To hide sheer incompetence of IAF?

A force that get surprised that enemy retaliated after your action! Is this a joke?

The planners who can't prepare a force that cant dominate a fifth or tenth of budget and severely struggling enemy airforce? What were they planning? Why are they not sacked for humiliating this country?

Who set the ROE? Modi? Was he micromanaging operation? No, IAF was, now after failure it's suddenly political leadership that is responsible? Waah, kya baat hai.
 
That the IAF was tasked for a defensive role within our air space, where they could shoot down PAF jets but couldn't pursue them across the LoC? What sort of cock eyed RoE is that?

Only suckers could have that kind of RoE. All you will end up doing is feed yourself to SAMs.

That's why we have SEAD/DEAD.
 
Please refer to Op Gaganshakti, where the IAF having decimated the PAF inside of 3 days after flying innumerable sorties were transferred to the Eastern Front.

If these are the inputs on which the IAF is war gaming, God forbid, what the future portends!

Gaganshakti was absolutely kickass. SEAD/DEAD comes into the picture here. Without SEAD/DEAD, all you can do is poke each other with a big stick.
 
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