India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
- Thread starter nair
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Thank you for the elaborate explanation. My point remains that we failed to account for the ferocity with which the PAF responded. Our response on 27th Feb was inadequate and tardy.Our RoE was totally cock eyed based on faulty inputs. Our weapons component were not cutting edge - a fact borne out by recent events. The IAF barely escaped being humiliated on 27th Feb.
Aren't DEAD / SEAD applicable to the PAF too? Or is it a one way street?
So, what in your estimation was IAF's threat assessment of the PAF post Balakote? That they wouldn't respond? Given the way the IAF reacted on the 27th Feb, that seems to be the threat assessment projected by the IAF to the GoI based on which the RoE was set. Of course, all this is speculative.
No sir it is not, they give broader outlines, RoE are set by commanders. No government ever say to not fire when you are fired upon by intruders.
Abhinandan not getting terminated for disobeying orders works against your claim that ROE was not to fire upon them, you have nothing for your claims except some articles that are time again proven to be highly inaccurate and borderline fiction.
Every single advantage with the PAF. Every single disadvantage with the IAF. And we still "escaped being humiliated". Isn't that enough? They brought the fight to us, we ended the fight in their territory.
As for "weapons component were not cutting edge", it's not a problem when all the enemy can do is fire at Dmax. Nobody can do anything about that, even the USAF, given the RoE.
Okay, let's assume it was the USAF with Aim-120D on F-15s. Now the USAF have an extra 50Km over the PAF's Aim-120C. But what's the point? The PAF would still come close enough to get first shot in, because the USAF is not at war. The F-15s would still have gone cold. And even if the USAF fired back with Aim-120Ds, the PAF F-16s would have gone cold, and those 3 F-16s would have still entered the airspace. After all, there were only 2 F-15s in the air that are now going cold to avoid the first volley.
This has nothing to do with the weapon itself. It has everything to do with RoE, and the fact that we are not at war, so we wouldn't be the one firing the first shot.
They apparently attacked an area that was devoid of SAMs.
Admiral D.K. Joshi resigned (or given graceful exit) after INS Sindhurakshak submarine sank due to accident.
Here Air Chief is erecting Rafale statues after losing 10 planes in less than 6 months of 2019 and getting humbled by Pakistan.
Moral responsibility, integrity, accountability can take a hike as long as you can please politicians. You can even get ambassadorship or governorship in return of these spectacular achievements.
Here Air Chief is erecting Rafale statues after losing 10 planes in less than 6 months of 2019 and getting humbled by Pakistan.
Moral responsibility, integrity, accountability can take a hike as long as you can please politicians. You can even get ambassadorship or governorship in return of these spectacular achievements.
I don't think IAF was incompetent that day otherwise PGMs would have landed on intended targets.
Yes distance between India and Pak gives high probability of successful air raids. You can have as much fighters in the air and as much ORPs. Real deterrence should be counter-raids, just like punitive / pre-emptive strike is for terrorist attacks.
You can't escalate from lower infantry engagement and extrapolate same restrictive, defensive only posture on next, higher step.
Yes distance between India and Pak gives high probability of successful air raids. You can have as much fighters in the air and as much ORPs. Real deterrence should be counter-raids, just like punitive / pre-emptive strike is for terrorist attacks.
You can't escalate from lower infantry engagement and extrapolate same restrictive, defensive only posture on next, higher step.
UN? Off on A tangent again, aren't we? Where was the UN when Operation Meghdhoot was executed? Or Operation Safed Sagar?
My singular point is why were we at A disadvantage? You outnumber the PAF 2:1 if not more. They are an inferior AF. Yet they carried the day on the 27th Feb. They surprised you with an attack. And not just in the way they executed it but also the sheer nos in which they deployed their AC. We got thru in large measure thanks to a mixture of our superior avionics, thru alert ground controllers, daredevilry by Wing Co Abhi and through sheer good fortune.
Not at war? After launching A raid deep into enemy territory, what exactly did you or in this case the IAF thought would be their response? We can quibble over the nomenclature used but isn't the IAF supposed to have made a threat appraisal and taken adequate measures be it in deployment of SAM, more CAPs, additional AWACS on station. You are war gaming scenarios using the same quantity of vectors the IAF deployed. My question is why were so few AC's of the IAF in the air, were scrambled the moment the IAF became aware of an imminent PAF raid?
A larger point that many members including @Arvind ; @BlackOpsIndia ; @R!cK among others including your truly have been making is why did the IAF grossly underestimate the PAF counter on the 27th Feb.
It's a given that the GoI never escalated or responded to grave provocation on the 27th Feb and in all likelihood won't, inspite of which Pakistan is spooked enough to have it's airspace shut a full 4 months after the events of the 26th & 27th Feb. That's the larger RoE here, where the GoI controls the narrative.
Meaning we have a fair distance to travel before we have sanitized our front line airspace, Op Gaganshakti and it's glittering results not withstanding. Thanks for the disclosure.
I thought it had more to do with the training of our forces. from radar operators to GCIOs, everyone did their job as was expected of them during the engagement. Only sad part was the Mi-17 incident. Even there, the GCIOs and radar operators did their job as they had not marked it as hostile. Yet the SAM controllers shot it down.
Oh, they were just running around begging both of us to stop. It's a different story that they do not have real power when it matters. But this "sovereignty" thing, they do their best to protect it.
Sir PAF was intruder, India was acting in self defence against an intruder and dedicated enemy. Here is something UN say on the matter -
#10 Rules of Engagement & National Caveats: “Self-Defence” & “Mission Accomplishment” Instructions
hostile act may be regarded as an attack, or other use of force, by any person or foreign force:
- (a) directed against national armed forces, or those forces aligned with or under the protection of said national forces, including civilians;
- (b) or used directly to prevent or impede the mission or duties of national forces, including against any property or equipment which if lost will significantly impede the safe conduct of operations.
The article goes as far defining even hostile intent and use of force in self defence and dedicate the duties to define RoE to commanders.
Both Pulwama attack and raid on 27th were hostile act by Pakistan and we were well within self defence, not even offensive/aggressive to shot them down.
Everybody is at a disadvantage in the same scenario. Even Ethiopia can do the same against the US.
Anybody with fast fighter jets can pull it off. And everybody has VAs and VPs to protect. There are no exceptions.
That's basically what you need to win.
We aren't rich enough to have enough SAMs or jets or AWACS to do all the above all the time.
Why do you think the IAF is continuously cribbing about the squadron draw down? The armed forces are not a whiny lot by nature. But when they say something you have to listen, and do so seriously.
Why do you think the IAF has underestimated anybody? I would notch this down to ignorance of how air forces work in general.
Nothing was underestimated. It's the PAF who did. They are the ones who failed absolutely miserably, to the point where even their standoff weapons failed.
Why is there a need to escalate when we got what we wanted? Our target is not the Pak armed forces. We have no intention to help them get international sympathy and funding.
We are not in this game to merely cut them off their branches or nip them in the bud, we are in the game to pull them out by their roots permanently. Escalation for their failed attack is pointless at this time, especially the kind of damage we have done along the LoC already.
There is no such thing as sanitised.
And Gaganshakti was entirely different.
Both India and Pakistan consider their actions as self-defence.
If you want to formalise it, then all you have to do is declare war.
The question still remains why wasn't IAF prepared for a counterattack the next day. Were they too naive to believe pak will not do an adventure at least for the optics?
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