India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[lcafanboy]

Thank you for the elaborate explanation. My point remains that we failed to account for the ferocity with which the PAF responded. Our response on 27th Feb was inadequate and tardy.Our RoE was totally cock eyed based on faulty inputs. Our weapons component were not cutting edge - a fact borne out by recent events. The IAF barely escaped being humiliated on 27th Feb.

Even with all the ferocity and more than 3:1 advantage of 27 fighters to IAF 8 fighters they were unable to accomplish their mission of bombing Indian army HQ, lost their premium fighter F-16 to our oldest platform mig-21. Only 3 fighters out of such a heavy formation were able to enter Indian Air space out of which 1 was downed by wing commander Abhinandan. Rest left by throwing their bombs which didn't even hit the targets since they could not target as they were engaged by heavy electronic warfare and jamming. PAF went in with 3rd, 4th generation warfare tactics of heavy formation while IAF deployed tactics which are a generation ahead which made them blind and had to leave Indian Air space in hurry without achieving anything. Lost F-16 to our oldest mig-21. And that too with specific set of instructions/limits RoE from govt to IAF which is debatable and maybe in future govt will act rationally.

I agree our weapons deployed were not cutting edge but what would you expect during CAS CAP. See silver lining, PAF brought their best and still couldn't achieve anything against the IAF which deployed not so cutting edge weapons. Just imagine what IAF would have done in all out war where we would have deployed everything at our disposal.

Unhonen Apne Saare patte khol diye ab IAF usi hisab se tyari karenge aur rakhenge. That's an achievement I would say...

 

[_Anonymous_]

Even with all the ferocity and more than 3:1 advantage of 27 fighters to IAF 8 fighters they were unable to accomplish their mission of bombing Indian army HQ, lost their premium fighter F-16 to our oldest platform mig-21. Only 3 fighters out of such a heavy formation were able to enter Indian Air space out of which 1 was downed by wing commander Abhinandan. Rest left by throwing their bombs which didn't even hit the targets since they could not target as they were engaged by heavy electronic warfare and jamming. PAF went in with 3rd, 4th generation warfare tactics of heavy formation while IAF deployed tactics which are a generation ahead which made them blind and had to leave Indian Air space in hurry without achieving anything. Lost F-16 to our oldest mig-21. And that too with specific set of instructions/limits RoE from govt to IAF which is debatable and maybe in future govt will act rationally.

I agree our weapons deployed were not cutting edge but what would you expect during CAS CAP. See silver lining, PAF brought their best and still couldn't achieve anything against the IAF which deployed not so cutting edge weapons. Just imagine what IAF would have done in all out war where we would have deployed everything at our disposal.

Unhonen Apne Saare patte khol diye ab IAF usi hisab se tyari karenge aur rakhenge. That's an achievement I would say...

My dear Sir, I just have a very simple question. How much of what you've described above & what's in the public domain achieved out of design and how much of this was achieved by chance? The answer to it determines the state of preparedness of the IAF vis a vis the PAF. Please note that unlike the IA & the IN vis a vis the PA & the PN, the IAF has quite a chequered history against the PAF.

 

[_Anonymous_]

They are stuck there, out of compulsion.

If you break one of their ships now, it will get replaced free of cost.

Really. Please explain how.

Look at the Erirye and P3 Orion losses. They lost some aircraft in terrorist attacks, but those were all replaced. It's pointless just doing military damage if not backed up by economic damage.

Of course, they'd be replaced. What were you expecting? The cost was borne by their exchequer further straining their meagre resources.

 

[Golden_Rule]

I don't expect anything big to happen until Pakistan's been put on the blacklist. Perhaps by October.

I suppose Malaysia will have to be dealt with first.

Pakistan is sorrounded and I think that escape routes from all directions are now denied with the US-Iran flare up on its Western border. India will surely take advantage of this opportunity, with US covertly partnering from North, West and to some extent from South of Pakistan.

 

[rockstarIN]

Since all these where happening, something was happening further north, 4 (or 8?) JF 17s facing off with upgraded Mirages.

What was the outcome of those games? Why weren't M2000 fired its MICAs to JFT since there was no incoming missile dodging?

Also, they did not move further south to help Migs and Sukois.

PAF chief told Alan Warnes that JFTs performed well against MICAs and he satisfied with its performance.

M2000 entry at fighting scene by evading or ignoring JFTs and moving further south would have crated a much interesting situation..!

@_Anonymous_, @randomradio @vstol Jockey

 

[vstol Jockey]

We have to turn Malaysia towards us, like we did Sri Lanka and Maldives.

But I don't think much can be done about Turkey. They are firmly in Pak camp. And cancelling the tanker deal will only hurt us more, considering how long it takes us to get another deal going.

Give the deal to Indian shipyards. Turkey was given the deal in the first place only to have them on our side for NSG and FATF. They have gone against us, so no tanker deal.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Since all these where happening, something was happening further north, 4 (or 8?) JF 17s facing off with upgraded Mirages.

What was the outcome of those games? Why weren't M2000 fired its MICAs to JFT since there was no incoming missile dodging?

Also, they did not move further south to help Migs and Sukois.

PAF chief told Alan Warnes that JFTs performed well against MICAs and he satisfied with its performance.

M2000 entry at fighting scene by evading or ignoring JFTs and moving further south would have crated a much interesting situation..!

@_Anonymous_, @randomradio @vstol Jockey

M2Ks were to the south of pir panjal and not North of it. S-30MKIs were to the North. JF-17s never faced M2Ks on 27th feb. They faced them later.

 

[rockstarIN]

M2Ks were to the south of pir panjal and not North of it. S-30MKIs were to the North. JF-17s never faced M2Ks on 27th feb. They faced them later.

They could have moved further north to help MKIs, Btw, they faced later with JFTs?

 

[Arsalan123]

In any war,air Superiority is necessary.i don't know much about jamming but I think I really like this 27feb incident.it shows capabilities of both air forces.26feb was a lesson to us.iaf can intrude.i think after 26 feb,our focus shifted from missiles to Sam systems.i think Sam systems are necessary because pakistan is facing a much larger air Force.focus shifted to new bvr systems and new long range Sam systems.pakistan is learning lesson very fast.similarly iaf induction of new bvr means likely escalation in future.

 

[fyodor]

My dear Sir, I just have a very simple question. How much of what you've described above & what's in the public domain achieved out of design and how much of this was achieved by chance? The answer to it determines the state of preparedness of the IAF vis a vis the PAF. Please note that unlike the IA & the IN vis a vis the PA & the PN, the IAF has quite a chequered history against the PAF.

Air Force is one of the domain where technological superiority means the most.
Isn't it true that Pakistan always had a technological superiority over the IAF for most part of history? PAF got the cutting edge weapons thanks to Uncle Sam. India always relied on the adage that "Quantity has a quality of its own".

It's only post the year 2000 that we have started surpassing them in the technological sector with induction of Su30MKIs, Rafales and other support equipments. We can still see some old junk remains like it was clear in the 27th Feb incident.

PAF also has good strategists and they know our weak links. They want to exploit it as long as they can. But I believe now all those gaps are being closed fast. So bright days ahead for IAF.

 

[noksss]

Pakistan airspace to open only if India promises to not repeat Balakot - Times of India

The supriseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee they talked about

 

[Cole_phelps]

Yup, RoE was to prevent further humiliation of Pakistan on 27th Feb. What would have happened next had IAF shot down JF-17s and F-16s in J&K with PAF pilots being captured and beaten up like Abhinandan?

Can anyone guess?

 

[nair]

Post-Balakot, Indian Navy hunted for Pakistani submarine for 21 days | India News - Times of India

 

[Ashwathama]

I think we should close down this thread. It's over.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

I think we should close down this thread. It's over.

In Pakistan I have been watching a particular journlist very famous (or notorious) saying from from last 8 years that military is about to move in and these corrupt politicians and democracy will replaced.

He is doing it from 8 years, every other day and because of his confirmation bias every incident that happen he spin it in favour of his theory. He got absurd number of followers and I have never seen them asking that you are saying this from 8 years nothing happened till now, wake up. Nobody ask, with every new theory he spin people get more interested.

I watch him for fun and amusement that how will he fool this big following today and he always did. This thread is turning same.


People are digging minor cease fire violations to Iran-US conflict just to live in that fantasy that it's not over, that we will kill Pakistanis today or tomorrow, this summer, after election, after monsoon, after winter when snow melts, after modernization, after 2022, after Saturn moves to Capricorn and so on.

Deluding ourselves keeps us away from uncomfortable questions, bitter reality, eco chambers are so satisfying and addictive that you just don't want to come out.

Don't be surprised if this thread is alive even in 2024 and we are just days away from final assault on Pakistan. We are becoming typical Pakistani who is waiting for Kashmir and Gazwa-e-Hind to get back the lost glory of killing millions of Hindus.

 

[Shaktimaan]

In Pakistan I have been watching a particular journlist very famous (or notorious) saying from from last 8 years that military is about to move in and these corrupt politicians and democracy will replaced.

He is doing it from 8 years, every other day and because of his confirmation bias every incident that happen he spin it in favour of his theory. He got absurd number of followers and I have never seen them asking that you are saying this from 8 years nothing happened till now, wake up. Nobody ask, with every new theory he spin people get more interested.

I watch him for fun and amusement that how will he fool this big following today and he always did. This thread is turning same.


People are digging minor cease fire violations to Iran-US conflict just to live in that fantasy that it's not over, that we will kill Pakistanis today or tomorrow, this summer, after election, after monsoon, after winter when snow melts, after modernization, after 2022, after Saturn moves to Capricorn and so on.

Deluding ourselves keeps us away from uncomfortable questions, bitter reality, eco chambers are so satisfying and addictive that you just don't want to come out.

Don't be surprised if this thread is alive even in 2024 and we are just days away from final assault on Pakistan. We are becoming typical Pakistani who is waiting for Kashmir and Gazwa-e-Hind to get back the lost glory of killing millions of Hindus.

During feb, they were saying we can attack pak during monsoons, right now there is snow on mountains... Now during monsonns, not right now. We can attack them during october when it starts to snow... Rain can create problems...during october they will say it starts snowing lol

 

[randomradio]

Please explain what exactly have they lost apart from a F-16 ( which again is a disputed claim, though in my book it's a loss. The truth would come out eventually) and the fact that in the glorious tradition of tactics vs strategy, the PAF opened all its cards.

What's happening within the PAF is none of our concern. Are you suggesting that if the PAF implodes on its own, the IAF takes the cue & fights with one arm tied behind its back. Isn't this kind of thinking responsible for what transpired on 27th Feb?

It is most definitely our concern, maybe not specifically to you or me, but most definitely to national security.

And it's not just PAF, think about the entire terror system in general. Pakistan's terror infrastructure is loosely built on discipline and mostly built on josh. As far as the terrorists are concerned, we took out hundreds of them in multiple locations and got away with it. And the subsequent retaliation by PAF to do similar damage failed completely. It's likely the night before the PAF had promised the terrorists to settle scores and they couldn't. They used to hit us for decades and used to sleep comfortably in their training camps. But now that comfort has been completely shattered, including their faith in the armed forces actually protecting them when it counts.

As for the PAF, their attack completely failed in every conceivable way. Even their standoff weapons failed completely. I mean, total 100% failure. You send in your best aircraft, supported by the best support aircraft (Erieye, DA-20) with your best weapons and you still fail. Can you simply imagine the morale loss there?

I still don't think you have understood much about how good 27th has been to us in the overall scheme of things. The only major loss we suffered was by our own hands.

 

[randomradio]

Really. Please explain how.

China.

Of course, they'd be replaced. What were you expecting? The cost was borne by their exchequer further straining their meagre resources.

The Erieyes came out of their own pocket, but the P-3s didn't.

 

[Shaktimaan]

In Pakistan I have been watching a particular journlist very famous (or notorious) saying from from last 8 years that military is about to move in and these corrupt politicians and democracy will replaced.

He is doing it from 8 years, every other day and because of his confirmation bias every incident that happen he spin it in favour of his theory. He got absurd number of followers and I have never seen them asking that you are saying this from 8 years nothing happened till now, wake up. Nobody ask, with every new theory he spin people get more interested.

I watch him for fun and amusement that how will he fool this big following today and he always did. This thread is turning same.


People are digging minor cease fire violations to Iran-US conflict just to live in that fantasy that it's not over, that we will kill Pakistanis today or tomorrow, this summer, after election, after monsoon, after winter when snow melts, after modernization, after 2022, after Saturn moves to Capricorn and so on.

Deluding ourselves keeps us away from uncomfortable questions, bitter reality, eco chambers are so satisfying and addictive that you just don't want to come out.

Don't be surprised if this thread is alive even in 2024 and we are just days away from final assault on Pakistan. We are becoming typical Pakistani who is waiting for Kashmir and Gazwa-e-Hind to get back the lost glory of killing millions of Hindus.

Lol im going to post babas tweet

https://twitter.com/x/status/1142790241729708033

 

[randomradio]

Give the deal to Indian shipyards. Turkey was given the deal in the first place only to have them on our side for NSG and FATF. They have gone against us, so no tanker deal.

Turkey will be building those tankers in HSL though. Plus, GoI didn't choose Turkey, HSL did.