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"Longewala" from DFI makes an excellent point :

"Apologies somewhat off topic but one thing that always made me nervous was artillery... In everything else we are superior to the Napaks 2-1 or more, but thanks to Congi scum and 30 years of under investment they actually had more 155mm pieces and SP than we have.

So it is a pleasant surprise to see us actually ourgunning them repeatedly despite the large calibre gap... which I presume is due to
1. Better, and home developed WLRs more suitable for mountains (which shows the benefit of R&D and army - scientists collaboration)
2. Better trained and professional artillery corps
3. Having money to buy ammo in the first place
4. Better maintained guns
5. Having more numbers of well directed and standardised guns, even if 105mm,

None of which reflects any credit on our napaki mughals btw"

I remember @Milspec writing about Pakistani artillery some very detailed long posts with colourful graphs and everything. Do those calculations still hold ? If so, how come we are outgunning them now ? Doesn't the addition of Dhanush and BMCS upset the previous equations ?
 

Nope.

Precision strikes.

Read in conjunction with this.


Additionally, our 'eyes in the skies' are active ... they provide lovey target acquisition data through which, targeting of selected terror holdouts is taking place. Pakistani Army has tried to protect them by moving them and theirselves, into civil area. Even then, precise targeting is being done.

The collateral is because of movement of civilians in the area which Pakistan Army is not allowing to be vacated.

India - Pakistan Standoff 2019
 
"Longewala" from Other Forum makes an excellent point :

"Apologies somewhat off topic but one thing that always made me nervous was artillery... In everything else we are superior to the Napaks 2-1 or more, but thanks to Congi scum and 30 years of under investment they actually had more 155mm pieces and SP than we have.

So it is a pleasant surprise to see us actually ourgunning them repeatedly despite the large calibre gap... which I presume is due to
1. Better, and home developed WLRs more suitable for mountains (which shows the benefit of R&D and army - scientists collaboration)
2. Better trained and professional artillery corps
3. Having money to buy ammo in the first place
4. Better maintained guns
5. Having more numbers of well directed and standardised guns, even if 105mm,

None of which reflects any credit on our napaki mughals btw"

I remember @Milspec writing about Pakistani artillery some very detailed long posts with colourful graphs and everything. Do those calculations still hold ? If so, how come we are outgunning them now ? Doesn't the addition of Dhanush and BMCS upset the previous equations ?


Wishful post.
 
IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
Thread: It's clear that #Pakistan plans a massive insurgency campaign against #India that would be backed by the army. India's response should be to retaliate with much greater force & take the fight to Pakistan's territory including POK. Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar released from Pakistan jail, Islamabad planning a big action: Intelligence Bureau ( )

IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
#Pakistan is behaving exactly as #India expected after the abrogation of article 370. They either do it or they lose face. India is doing the moves, Pakistan is only reacting and doesn't have any good choices. It's a lose - lose situation for Pak. ( )

IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
#Pakistan is actually playing into #India's game. Pak's insurgency & supportive military actions will show Pak as the aggressor and India's retake of Pak occupied Kashmir in retaliation for such actions will be totally accepted. India already gamed the whole scenario. ( )

IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
People need to understand that #India is playing a big game here. Article 370 is only one part. The #US withdraw from #Afghanistan will bring tons of Jihadis into Kashmir, so India needs to turn the tables on that big time. What used to work, no longer works. ( )

IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
What this means is that #India has no choice but to take the initiative & change the Kashmir situation for good. Article 370 was the first step. Once the situation allows, taking over the eastern part of the POK and connecting with Afghanistan is imperative or Afg falls. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter ( )


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
The US plans to withdraw from Afg made this new Indian policy necessary. Trump just cancelled the peace plan with the Taliban, but negotiations continue. This is good for India for now, but we can't say that the US wont make a deal & withdraw, so the game plan continues. (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
The implication of this peace agreement between the Taliban & US will be felt across South Asia. This is the context in which India is firming up its grip in Kashmir. With the Taliban in control of Afg, #India had to make a big strategic move where article 370 was the first step. (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
In such scenario of heavy warfare, the end game should be a full or significant Indian takeover of #Pakistan occupied Kashmir and a direct land route from #India to #Afghanistan, something that India needs to counter the Pak-Taliban efforts in Afghanistan. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
If things go as expected, with heavy warfare in Kashmir, we could expect that #India will cut off the CPEC corridor road from #China into Pak, which runs through Kashmir and at one point, it's only 80 Km from the LOC (heavy mountain area). Look at the map 👇👇👇 IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
Need to keep in mind that when the Taliban controls #Afghanistan, it'll be not only #Pakistan that will control Afg, but also #China, read my thread here about the special relationship between China & the Taliban 👇👇👇IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)



IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
Need to keep in mind that when the Taliban controls #Afghanistan, it'll be not only #Pakistan that will control Afg, but also #China, read my thread here about the special relationship between China & the Taliban 👇👇👇IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)



IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
In such case of #India taking over just the eastern part of POK & connecting with #Afghanistan, #US reliance on #Pakistan to access Afghanistan gets reduced & Pakistan's value for #USA is also reduced. If taking the area of Pak next to POK, then there are better roads to Afg. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)



IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
So, give it time and connecting with the Wakhan corridor will be a good way to connect with Afg. The Chinese want a direct route to Afg that is not dependent on Pakistan. Afghanistan wants the same and also to connect with India. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)


IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
Right now, there are 2 roads connecting POK with the Wakhan corridor as the map shows. There is a better road further west in the Pak area next to POK, which is a good reason to take that area. Going further west to bypass the Wakhan corridor is even better. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)



IndoPacific_SCS_Info (@IndoPac_Info) Tweeted:
Once there is a connection with the Wakhan corridor, the rest of Afghanistan will be readily accessible since there is a new, good road under construction to link it with Afg main road network as the map shows & rail is also planned. IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter (IndoPacific_SCS_Info on Twitter)

Very exhaustive & interesting account of why we should be targeting PoK. @Falcon ; @Milspec ; @randomradio ; @S. A. T. A ; @Austerlitz
 
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Taking over complete POK is Not a Joke or A Cakewalk

How many casualties are we willing to accept

Will China Sit Back and Quietly watch it happen

If there was ever the right time and the right govt. to take PoK it is now. This government is pretty quick to decide and does not shy away from going big - thats the single most important takeaway from Art. 370

Having said that, I strongly believe that the China question would have been raised when this idea was in its infancy and a response prepared accordingly. My guess is that India will try to placate the dragon by offering among other things - express guarantees to keep the CPEC line open even if it manages to cut through PoK. Once China knows that India will not endanger its access to Gwadar, China has no reason to go into a shooting war with India. Chinese rely more on coercion rather than armed action. They will keep nibbling at us but will not go to war. We saw that at Doklam - where they decided that armed action was not suitable and then fell back to coercion.
 
If there was ever the right time and the right govt. to take PoK it is now. This government is pretty quick to decide and does not shy away from going big - thats the single most important takeaway from Art. 370

Having said that, I strongly believe that the China question would have been raised when this idea was in its infancy and a response prepared accordingly. My guess is that India will try to placate the dragon by offering among other things - express guarantees to keep the CPEC line open even if it manages to cut through PoK. Once China knows that India will not endanger its access to Gwadar, China has no reason to go into a shooting war with India. Chinese rely more on coercion rather than armed action. They will keep nibbling at us but will not go to war. We saw that at Doklam - where they decided that armed action was not suitable and then fell back to coercion.

Post Article 370 removal , Pakistan and China have firmed up their alliance

Even if we do a deal with China , it will throw away the deal and open another front in Ladakh

Why will China lose an opportunity to hurt India

Unless we have an explicit alliance with US
It is very Risky to go deep into POK

Pakistan now has all the more reasons and justification to Send Thousands of Jihadis

China will supply Arms and Ammunition

What we are doing on LOC is to push them Back by a Few KM so that they are unable to
Consolidate on the LOC

But that does not mean we can move into POK unopposed

They will set up their posts at the Next Ridge line ie 5 KM back

Pak Army will absorb its losses on the LOC
 
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If there was ever the right time and the right govt. to take PoK it is now. This government is pretty quick to decide and does not shy away from going big - thats the single most important takeaway from Art. 370

Having said that, I strongly believe that the China question would have been raised when this idea was in its infancy and a response prepared accordingly. My guess is that India will try to placate the dragon by offering among other things - express guarantees to keep the CPEC line open even if it manages to cut through PoK. Once China knows that India will not endanger its access to Gwadar, China has no reason to go into a shooting war with India. Chinese rely more on coercion rather than armed action. They will keep nibbling at us but will not go to war. We saw that at Doklam - where they decided that armed action was not suitable and then fell back to coercion.
CPEC under Indian control is no use to China. Any Indian government that wants to capture Pok by force will have to game the worst case scenario of a two front war, where on one front we attack Pakistan/Pok and on the Ladakh and eastern front manage to hold back China without major setbacks...
 
Post Article 370 removal , Pakistan and China have firmed up their alliance

Even if we do a deal with China , it will throw it away and open another front in Ladakh

Why will China lose an opportunity to hurt India

Unless we have an explicit alliance with US
It is very Risky to go deep into POK

China does not consider Pakistan an equal or an ally worth defending. If they did not do it in 65 or 71 they wont bother now.

As long as we dont publicly insult them and let them keep the lines of trade open for CPEC they will not fight.

Its simple numbers - Lose a 100 billion trade partner and keep a shadow on CPEC or Keep the 100 billion partner who might join CPEC upon getting PoK and inject fresh funds.
 
CPEC under Indian control is no use to China. Any Indian government that wants to capture Pok by force will have to game the worst case scenario of a two front war, where on one front we attack Pakistan/Pok and on the Ladakh and eastern front manage to hold back China without major setbacks...

Those who are seeing POK dreams should also clearly see and expect a 2 front war

Right now the Increased hostilities on LOC
Are because we are Not allowing them to
Consolidate and come close to the LOC

Otherwise If we do nothing they will
gather in Thousands and Storm the LOC

China does not consider Pakistan an equal or an ally worth defending. If they did not do it in 65 or 71 they wont bother now.

As long as we dont publicly insult them and let them keep the lines of trade open for CPEC they will not fight.

Its simple numbers - Lose a 100 billion trade partner and keep a shadow on CPEC or Keep the 100 billion partner who might join CPEC upon getting PoK and inject fresh funds.

Trade is just One thing , Not everything

If PLA and Chinese Communist party decide
To go for a war with India , they will do it simply to Humiliate us
 
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China does not consider Pakistan an equal or an ally worth defending. If they did not do it in 65 or 71 they wont bother now.

As long as we dont publicly insult them and let them keep the lines of trade open for CPEC they will not fight.

Its simple numbers - Lose a 100 billion trade partner and keep a shadow on CPEC or Keep the 100 billion partner who might join CPEC upon getting PoK and inject fresh funds.
Equality has nothing to do with China's attitude towards Pakistan. Pakistan and North Korea are the pillars of China's power projection in its near abroad. The Indian peninsula juts out like a dagger into the Indian Ocean. Unlike China which is surrounded by the first and second island chains, India's position is much more secure and dominant in the maritime domain. Without Pakistan, the full might of the Indian military would be concentrated on the Chinese border. And because of the difficult terrain, China cannot bring it's full conventional superiority to bear. Indian force concentration, and expertise in mountain warfare make sure that China cannot win any quick decisive victory along the LAC. A wannabe superpower cannot be seen as getting bogged down in a fight against India. That is our saving grace. China would happily sacrifice it's trade with India, if the cost is Pakistan. China needs Pakistan to keep India unbalanced..
 
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Let me throw up a question for you all, Can we still have a CSD kind of game?
Think over all you guys and let us chat on this at 1900hrs. Please comment.
 
Let me throw up a question for you all, Can we still have a CSD kind of game?
Think over all you guys and let us chat on this at 1900hrs. Please comment.
Both sides are already pretty mobilized.. so not sure if Cold start would be that relevant now... I think it's upto our strike corps now, if they have to rip apart Pakistan's shored up defences...
 
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