India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Ankit Kumar]

Ok a follow up question on the RD93s. Pakistanis claim they went ahead of the Russians and solved the black smoke issue with the 93s? How credible do you think this claim is?

The most advanced engines from that series are in currently used in Mig29K and Mig35 prototypes , smoke is a smaller issue. It's reliability, servicing are bigger issues. Wherein likes of GE404 give 4000+ hours easily , IAF Mig29 with RD33 series had to service engines fully every 200-400 hours. Further Mig29 also had large number of single engine emergency landings too.

IAF will choose Kaveri over RD93/33 anyday for single engine aircrafts if GE404/M88 option is not available. That is the confidence on solo RD33 series operations.

As for Pakistanis solving engine issue, well the day they start flying JF17 fleet say 100-150 hours a year, you will see the results.

 

[Arvind]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1180284206427131906

That shows professionalism of IAF that they disclose the truth, unlike other non professional forces which hide about everything in guise of not boosting the enemy morale.

 

[Hellfire]

These are control surfaces for Kfour.

Hence for a layman like me most probably for trajectory shaping.

In other forum had a discussion regarding the position of these control surfaces on Kfour . But unfortunately too little info to draw a definite conclusion.

One idea that was propounded was that it was part of the RV , but I couldn't agree with that , aerodynamic shaping of fins found in RVs are highly tapered and blended with the RV body for the obvious reasons.

Another thing which complicates matter is Kfour is flush with its canister other than for the internal guide rails of canister , there is bare little clearance for something like a protruding fin on the surface of Kfour. Unless it is deployed in flight as canards aka a forward control surface during highly depressed trajectory flights inorder to negate induced rolling moments encounter in flight maneuvers within the atmosphere at high supersonic or hypersonic speeds or even as a complement to act as a counterbalance to retro motors induced rolling of entire missile for dissipation of built up heat on the surface while flying in a depressed trajectory within the atmosphere.

Also I believe the fins are ablative for the obvious reasons however , no info was given on the same.

In the end of exhaust one can find ablative control surfaces which forms what is known as TVC.
However IMO the said fins are shaped different from the usual shape employed in TVC.

View attachment 10503

This one is a ablative component of a unidentified indian missile and for example finds use in systems employing TVC like the one below

View attachment 10504

Also this kind of proves that the said fins are not part of TVC of Kfour

In the end , funny thing is
I am not sure of nothing except that these are control surfaces of Kfour

I think you are more or less in the correct line of thinking. Am not an engineer, hence will not be able to comment too much without checking up on my facts first. However, TVC is something that is rearing up its head one odd times in this circle. Useless to speculate much or comment much right now.

 

[Hellfire]

Yes
That would result in a self inflicted wound

Indian electronic systems within the zone of the blast though physically protected will still be put into harm's way and certain components might suffer functional failure due to induced transient currents and voltage spikes. EMP safeguards are enforced in only critical systems , other systems have resistance built in but not foolproof countermeasures , too expensive.

Also all homeside communication channels would be severely effected due to the resulting ionisation of a nuke blast, however small the nuke is and will spread gradually and persist for some time before diminishing.

Not entirely so. Please recall that in Dec 2015, Indian Army was declared fit to fight a dirty war. While I may disagree with the blanket declaration, the level of training and SOP formulation and implementation certainly allows us to be much better prepared to fight in a dirty environment.

EMP employment is naturally something which we have taken very seriously. Expecting a high altitude blast as a possibility to blind own C2I networks, the SOPs are laid out to 'harden' and prevent the same.

Something as mundane as a food aluminium foil is enough to protect some of your sensitive equipment from an EMP blast.

That is where a nuke on Akash is fun to imagine ... no Ballastic Missile needed to employ one ourselves. Speculating here.

 

[Hellfire]

like in the case of agni V

That went right over my head. What are you trying to say?

 

[Bali78]

The most advanced engines from that series are in currently used in Mig29K and Mig35 prototypes , smoke is a smaller issue. It's reliability, servicing are bigger issues. Wherein likes of GE404 give 4000+ hours easily , IAF Mig29 with RD33 series had to service engines fully every 200-400 hours. Further Mig29 also had large number of single engine emergency landings too.

IAF will choose Kaveri over RD93/33 anyday for single engine aircrafts if GE404/M88 option is not available. That is the confidence on solo RD33 series operations.

As for Pakistanis solving engine issue, well the day they start flying JF17 fleet say 100-150 hours a year, you will see the results.

If Mig29s are facing large number of single engine emergency landings, how come JF-17 fleet is not facing significant accident rate due to engine failures?

 

[Hellfire]

Sir I never make claims, I only say that there is a possibility as per the scenario. The reason why I mentioned that an israeli nue might have been tested by India is due to the fact 18 months just before the test APJ Kalam went to Israel. By that time India had decided to conduct the test.

Let me give you a reverse. How about that the Indians actually have share data with Israelis?

The only other main reason why a scientist of that level would go to Israel is the ballistic Missile project. I do not claim that its true but there is a possibility.

Ballistic Missile Defence R&D? (Hint: Green Pine Radars etc)

We were talking about yield and design. So I made a post.

You probably were. I was very specific. sub-kiloton on 155 mm.

How sure are you that Pakistan's tactical nuke is very much tactical what they claim to be and it's not a standard weapon knowing the fact that even deploying a tactical nuke it will be inviting megatons of retaliation?

As sure as one can be who has ground experience of what we are dealing with. Will that hold for you?

You see, like a member mentioned here earlier, you will either have to take what I post or just ignore it. It is upto you. I only point in a direction.

Like I can name the pilot flying the AWACS on Feb 27th and actually tell you about the person, but remained to 'AWACS was on station' when the whole world is saying otherwise. Similarly I indicated that someone involved with the project execution knows more than average joe here ...

 

[randomradio]

Your cure is worse than the disease. With a range of just 30-40 kms, how will an Akash prevent a nuclear Blast? In fact armed with a nuke, it may trigger an air burst once it collides with a nuclear warhead.

Akash doesn't have a range of 30-40Km, it has a range of 20-30Km. Even less against BMs. Which is fine for anti-nuke role, since the goal is to protect a very small area, like a base or even a small town or city at border areas, which are not too big. For example, the extent of Pathankot is just 10x7Km, which should be well within the capabilities of Akash's anti-BM capabilities. I am referring to SRBMs, not ICBMs. And the SRBMs in question, similar to Prithvi, are capable of reaching speeds not exceeding mach 3, which is well within the capabilities of Akash.

So it won't protect a city the size of Delhi, but it can protect a city like Srinagar, Amritsar, Pathankot, Bikaner, Jailsalmer etc from SRBMs. And if a conventional warhead won't cut it for the BMD role, then a nuclear warhead will.

Depending on the size of the nuke, a nuclear blast is lethal up to just a few Km diameter all the way up to 8-10Km. And it's the altitude what counts. Akash is capable of operating up to 20Km, so any nuke that is taken care of above 10Km is fine. It's not a threat to the target below.

This is the AAD's altitude.
India’s Advanced Air Defense Interceptor Shoots Down Ballistic Missile Target in Test
“The endo-atmospheric missile, capable of intercepting incoming targets at an altitude of 15 to 25 [kilometers] was launched against multiple simulated targets of 1500 [kilometers] class ballistic missile,” the Indian MoD said in an August 2 statement.

Also, no BMD does not "prevent a nuclear Blast", your words. What I said is "veer warhead off course".

 

[screambowl]

If Mig29s are facing large number of single engine emergency landings, how come JF-17 fleet is not facing significant accident rate due to engine failures?

India faces maintenance issues compared to Pakistan. We lack resources, we are more prone to delays and wastage of funds which are being streamlined for a large force.

As sure as one can be who has ground experience of what we are dealing with. Will that hold for you?

So you are saying Pakistan will use sub kiloton weapon knowing that the retaliation will be massive?

Let me give you a reverse. How about that the Indians actually have share data with Israelis?

I don't counter that.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Akash doesn't have a range of 30-40Km, it has a range of 20-30Km. Even less against BMs. Which is fine for anti-nuke role, since the goal is to protect a very small area, like a base or even a small town or city at border areas, which are not too big. For example, the extent of Pathankot is just 10x7Km, which should be well within the capabilities of Akash's anti-BM capabilities. I am referring to SRBMs, not ICBMs. And the SRBMs in question, similar to Prithvi, are capable of reaching speeds not exceeding mach 3, which is well within the capabilities of Akash.

So it won't protect a city the size of Delhi, but it can protect a city like Srinagar, Amritsar, Pathankot, Bikaner, Jailsalmer etc from SRBMs. And if a conventional warhead won't cut it for the BMD role, then a nuclear warhead will.

Depending on the size of the nuke, a nuclear blast is lethal up to just a few Km diameter all the way up to 8-10Km. And it's the altitude what counts. Akash is capable of operating up to 20Km, so any nuke that is taken care of above 10Km is fine. It's not a threat to the target below.

This is the AAD's altitude.
India’s Advanced Air Defense Interceptor Shoots Down Ballistic Missile Target in Test
“The endo-atmospheric missile, capable of intercepting incoming targets at an altitude of 15 to 25 [kilometers] was launched against multiple simulated targets of 1500 [kilometers] class ballistic missile,” the Indian MoD said in an August 2 statement.

Also, no BMD does not "prevent a nuclear Blast", your words. What I said is "veer warhead off course".

You're stretching what's considered a secondary capability of a short ranged SAM at best and extremely limited at that , coming up with conjecture to fit into your fantasy scenario. If Akash had such extraordinary capabilities, why'd we not integrate it with the BMD systems?

 

[vstol Jockey]

I'm intrigued by this statement. Where did this come from?

As far as the Surya Akash & Brahmos is concerned the safest place they'd be in is in Paxtan. After landing there. It's your job to ensure that we send it there. I'm sure you won't disappoint.

Let me give u a hint. When Agni-5 was tested, It was chinese who questioned its reported range of 5k kms. In their opinion the missile was capable of over 8K kms.

 

[Golden_Rule]

Watch out members...
It's going to be explosive. A nuke is about to explode on strategicfront forum....

It is a self-reconstructing nuke ... it has exploded several times in the past. It simply needs to be recharged to the top with single malt scotch

Let me give u a hint. When Agni-5 was tested, It was chinese who questioned its reported range of 5k kms. In their opinion the missile was capable of over 8K kms.

with reduced payload

 

[vstol Jockey]

with reduced payload

Please read about the payload of Agni-5. And after that we again tested a much smaller and lighter Agni-4 with composites. Agni-4 is a 17 ton missile with same payload and had a range of 4k kms and than we had a 50ton missile with similar payload and range of just 5k kms. Do you believe it? and will you believe it?

 

[lcafanboy]

Please read about the payload of Agni-5. And after that we again tested a much smaller and lighter Agni-4 with composites. Agni-4 is a 17 ton missile with same payload and had a range of 4k kms and than we had a 50ton missile with similar payload and range of just 5k kms. Do you believe it? and will you believe it?

And the cry of emperor 11jumping pig after testing Agni 5 stating it has at least 8000kms range when internally they know the missile tested has about 10000kms range equipped with 5-7 mirvs..

 

[vstol Jockey]

And the cry of emperor 11jumping pig after testing Agni 5 stating it has at least 8000kms range when internally they know the missile tested has about 10000kms range equipped with 5-7 mirvs..

Yes. One of my coursemates who joined engineering stream after NDA was working on it as far back as 2008.

 

[Golden_Rule]

And the cry of emperor 11jumping pig after testing Agni 5 stating it has at least 8000kms range when internally they know the missile tested has about 10000kms range equipped with 5-7 mirvs..

Did we ever test MIRVs?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Did we ever test MIRVs?

we can launch 124 plus satellites in one launch, we can restart the fouth stage motor to vary the orbit of satellites to be launched and you are asking, "Did we ever test MIRV"? how funny?

 

[screambowl]

Please read about the payload of Agni-5. And after that we again tested a much smaller and lighter Agni-4 with composites. Agni-4 is a 17 ton missile with same payload and had a range of 4k kms and than we had a 50ton missile with similar payload and range of just 5k kms. Do you believe it? and will you believe it?

With the current data what is available then yes, I do agree. But I again doubt that they disclosed the correct payload capacity. I believe it's more than 1.5 ton.

 

[lcafanboy]

Did we ever test MIRVs?

Do you still doubt after launching of 101 satellites and multiple satellites on different trajectories. The bus is already validated. And if I am not wrong Agni 3 itself has 3mirved warheads....

 

[vstol Jockey]

With the current data what is available then yes, I do agree. But I again doubt that they disclosed the correct payload capacity. I believe it's more than 1.5 ton.

what happens when when you exchange payload for range? did you read about a a discovery by Indian ISRO about a special kind of stuff which allowed a missile to fly further than what it did without it?

In September 2008, Indian scientists developed a path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles. This would add-up on the stated range.