India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[lcafanboy]

what happens when when you exchange payload for range? did you read about a a discovery by Indian ISRO about a special kind of stuff which allowed a missile to fly further than what it did without it?

Light weight Composite body and CL20 based rocket fuel both make missiles lighter and with more range...

 

[vstol Jockey]

Light weight Composite body and CL20 based rocket fuel both make missiles lighter and with more range...

In September 2008, Indian scientists developed a path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles. This would add-up on the stated range.

 

[screambowl]

what happens when when you exchange payload for range? did you read about a a discovery by Indian ISRO about a special kind of stuff which allowed a missile to fly further than what it did without it?

yes that xyz composite fills the vacuum generated around the fuselage and reduces the drag.

lighter the payload higher the range and lower the accuracy of the RV. A lighter payload or MIRVs have only one trouble hat is accuracy at higher speed. That is why I was little specticle if India can throw 10000kms away how accurate the RV would be. It's experimental.

 

[randomradio]

You're stretching what's considered a secondary capability of a short ranged SAM at best and extremely limited at that , coming up with conjecture to fit into your fantasy scenario. If Akash had such extraordinary capabilities, why'd we not integrate it with the BMD systems?

Firstly, there's nothing extraordinary about what Akash does. An SRBM is not very different from an aerodynamic target, only the target is really small. Even Barak does the same. You consider it "extraordinary" because you are ignorant about this.

Secondly, our BMD is meant for far more dangerous BMs, like MRBMs and borderline IRBMs, which are hypersonic. Akash, MRSAM and XRSAM have nothing to do here, and any BMD capabilities these missiles possess are against theater missiles and other types of SRBMs.

Thirdly, we are not like the Russians and Americans, who are capable of combining air defence and BMD into a single unit, like the S-400 and AEGIS. All other countries have independent systems with different roles, which is actually easier and cheaper to design, and you get more effective capability with a single role design. So we are following the Patriot + THAAD route, not the S-400/500 route.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Firstly, there's nothing extraordinary about what Akash does. An SRBM is not very different from an aerodynamic target, only the target is really small. Even Barak does the same. You consider it "extraordinary" because you are ignorant about this.

Secondly, our BMD is meant for far more dangerous BMs, like MRBMs and borderline IRBMs, which are hypersonic. Akash, MRSAM and XRSAM have nothing to do here, and any BMD capabilities these missiles possess are against theater missiles and other types of SRBMs.

Thirdly, we are not like the Russians and Americans, who are capable of combining air defence and BMD into a single unit, like the S-400 and AEGIS. All other countries have independent systems with different roles, which is actually easier and cheaper to design, and you get more effective capability with a single role design. So we are following the Patriot + THAAD route, not the S-400/500 route.

Akash has been reported to have the capability to take on an LGB too. So, targetting an SRBM shouldn't be an issue. But is that the primary purpose of the Akash? Has that what the Akash has been designed for? You stir up sterile debates, quite unnecessarily.

 

[hellbent]

Not entirely so. Please recall that in Dec 2015, Indian Army was declared fit to fight a dirty war. While I may disagree with the blanket declaration, the level of training and SOP formulation and implementation certainly allows us to be much better prepared to fight in a dirty environment.

EMP employment is naturally something which we have taken very seriously. Expecting a high altitude blast as a possibility to blind own C2I networks, the SOPs are laid out to 'harden' and prevent the same.

Something as mundane as a food aluminium foil is enough to protect some of your sensitive equipment from an EMP blast.

That is where a nuke on Akash is fun to imagine ... no Ballastic Missile needed to employ one ourselves. Speculating here.

When I wrote the post , I was in a hurry so I kind of failed to highlight the main concern

Atmospherics

Radio / sat comms , radars etc are dependent on atmospherics , even on a fine day with everything working one cannot always guarantee reception or transmission , short distance , medium distance , long distance. You as ex military will know this.

EMP is just one of the effects of a nuclear blast , another effect is ionisation of the atmospherics in the immediate areas of the blast and subsequent spread of the same which will scramble the transmission and reception of all kinds of EM signals passing through the effected zone for a considerable amout of time.

This is when things will get interesting , one will saved his equipments from the emp effects and have them still in working order but one will not be able to save the atmospherics from ionisation etc which will lead to attenuation of any EM signal passing through it .

There might be backups like buried optical fibre cables but these are not available everywhere , at Strategic levels it might be available but definitely not in tactical levels.

 

[randomradio]

Akash has been reported to have the capability to take on an LGB too. So, targetting an SRBM shouldn't be an issue. But is that the primary purpose of the Akash? Has that what the Akash has been designed for? You stir up sterile debates, quite unnecessarily.

Those are silly questions to ask. If something has the capability, you use it.

Or what, if an SRBM is headed your way, you as the commanding officer of an Akash battery are gonna say, "Yeah, the system can stop the missile, but I'm not gonna do it because Akash's 'primary purpose' is air defence. So the air base can go to hell".

Anyway, Akash has been designed to carry a nuclear warhead, so yeah, it has been designed for this role. The commander's gonna deal with any threat as he sees fit. All you have going for you is your own opinion. So yes, you do bring up topics that prolong stuff unnecessarily.

And no, LGBs and SRBMs are entirely different things. The ability to stop an LGB in no way correlates to being able to stop an SRBM. Rather it's the opposite.

 

[hellbent]

In September 2008, Indian scientists developed a path-breaking technology that has the potential to increase the range of missiles and satellite launch vehicles by at least 40%.The enhanced range is made possible by adding a special-purpose coating of chromium metal to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles. This would add-up on the stated range.

Reactive ablative coating that forms a thin low density gaseous layer over the applied surface of the missile as they approaches high supersonic or hypersonic speeds

This super heated gas layer reduces drag by nearly 47%, thereby allowing range enhancements to at least 40%.

 

[randomradio]

Yes
That would result in a self inflicted wound

Indian electronic systems within the zone of the blast though physically protected will still be put into harm's way and certain components might suffer functional failure due to induced transient currents and voltage spikes. EMP safeguards are enforced in only critical systems , other systems have resistance built in but not foolproof countermeasures , too expensive.

Also all homeside communication channels would be severely effected due to the resulting ionisation of a nuke blast, however small the nuke is and will spread gradually and persist for some time before diminishing.

Can't really help it. The choice is between you stopping a larger nuke with a smaller nuke or risk losing everything you have in the region regardless.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Those are silly questions to ask. If something has the capability, you use it.

Or what, if an SRBM is headed your way, you as the commanding officer of an Akash battery are gonna say, "Yeah, the system can stop the missile, but I'm not gonna do it because Akash's 'primary purpose' is air defence. So the air base can go to hell".

Anyway, Akash has been designed to carry a nuclear warhead, so yeah, it has been designed for this role. The commander's gonna deal with any threat as he sees fit. All you have going for you is your own opinion. So yes, you do bring up topics that prolong stuff unnecessarily.

And no, LGBs and SRBMs are entirely different things. The ability to stop an LGB in no way correlates to being able to stop an SRBM. Rather it's the opposite.

Let's examine your statement . This is what you wrote

Emergency BMD.

SAMs meant to defeat aircraft have inferior accuracy against BMs. But a nuke has the blast radius necessary to veer warhead off course even if the SAM is not very accurate.

The choice is between an explosive and a nuke. So Akash comes fitted for but not with.

Then you come up with this -

Firstly, there's nothing extraordinary about what Akash does. An SRBM is not very different from an aerodynamic target, only the target is really small. Even Barak does the same. You consider it "extraordinary" because you are ignorant about this.

Only to end up with this -

Anyway, Akash has been designed to carry a nuclear warhead, so yeah, it has been designed for this role. The commander's gonna deal with any threat as he sees fit. All you have going for you is your own opinion. So yes, you do bring up topics that prolong stuff unnecess

Pray, Why so many flip flops ? Just to justify this -

No, I am talking about nukes in Akash.

Going by your statement of Akash being designed to also carry sub kiloton nukes, every contemporary SAM must reflect similar capabilities. In which case, going back to the period between 60's-80's when detection systems weren't accurate not were the SAM, the US & USSR ought to have equipped every second SAM system they deployed with such capabilities . But, myopic as they were, they did not. Evidently they didn't have an epiphany unlike you.


I'm told we have the Nation's Security managers viz serving & retired Defence personnel, serving & retired scientists from the Atomic establishment as well as DRDO and for all you know the NSAB, NSC, DPC, etc also visit this site infrequently.


May I take the opportunity to appeal to them that we have this wonderful strategic thinker in our midst and that by not inducting him in, they'd be doing this nation and his talent a grave disservice.

 

[Sulla84]

Anyway, Akash has been designed to carry a nuclear warhead, so yeah, it has been designed for this role.

Is there an online article which mentions this..? Or did it come from some authoritative person at an informal meeting..

 

[randomradio]

Let's examine your statement . This is what you wrote




Then you come up with this -



Only to end up with this -




Pray, Why so many flip flops ? Just to justify this -

Nothing's changed. It all looks different to you, but the same to me.

Going by your statement of Akash being designed to also carry sub kiloton nukes, every contemporary SAM must reflect similar capabilities. In which case, going back to the period between 60's-80's when detection systems weren't accurate not were the SAM, the US & USSR ought to have equipped every SAM system they deployed with such capabilities . But, myopic as they were, they did not. Evidently they didn't have an epiphany unlike you.

Radars were not advanced enough for BMD role from the 60s to the 80s. Now there are far more advanced ways to kill warheads, but did not exist when we designed the Akash. Missiles like the Patriot and David's Sling are far more advanced with HTK capability whereas the Akash doesn't even have a seeker. Also the threats we face is very different from the threats other advanced countries face. That's why the US is importing the Iron Dome from Israel, they never felt the need to develop such a system earlier.

I'm told we have the Nation's Security managers viz serving & retired Defence personnel, serving & retired scientists from the Atomic establishment as well as DRDO and for you know the NSAB, NSC, DPC, etc also visit this site infrequently.


May I take the opportunity to appeal to them that we have this wonderful strategic thinker in our midst and that by not inducting him in, they'd be doing this nation and his talent a grave disservice.

Oh, don't worry, they already have such people, that's why Akash can carry nukes.

Nuclear-capable Akash missile test fired | India News - Times of India
The multi-target missile with a strike range of 25 kms and capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of 50kg was test fired from a mobile launcher, defence sources said.

BEL to get Rs 4,279-crore IAF order for Akash missiles
The SAM is also capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads, with a payload of 60 kg.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Is there an online article which mentions this..? Or did it come from some authoritative person at an informal meeting..

Speaking strictly for myself, I have such crystal clear thoughts after I consume a full bottle of whisky. Not always though. And never in the mornings.

 

[_Anonymous_]

That's why the US is importing the Iron Dome from Israel, they never felt the need to develop such a system earlier.

Is the Iron Dome meant for smaller projectiles like rockets, mortar shells etc or is it meant to tackle BMs & CMs?

Oh, don't worry, they already have such people, that's why Akash can carry nukes.

No, I absolutely insist. In fact I'd bat for you and Sancho as a team up there at the very top of our Apex decision making body anyday & anytime.

Nuclear-capable Akash missile test fired | India News - Times of India
The multi-target missile with a strike range of 25 kms and capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of 50kg was test fired from a mobile launcher, defence sources said.

BEL to get Rs 4,279-crore IAF order for Akash missiles
The SAM is also capable of carrying conventional as well as nuclear warheads, with a payload of 60 kg.

Those links you're quoting from are from 2007 & 2013 respectively. Given the pathetic state of defence reporting standards prevalent today, one can only wonder what it was then. However, I'm not denying the capability being in built for Akash . Having said that, let's test your hypothesis. Deploying Akash with a tactical warhead in Tier 2 & Tier 3 cities would be a logistical nightmare apart from one from a security & Command & control point of view. It's the equivalent of deploying Nasrs in the field which for all of Pakistan's tall talks, they haven't accomplished. For good reason too.Which brings us back full circle to what you first posted & my response that the cure is worse than the disease .

 

[Golden_Rule]

we can launch 124 plus satellites in one launch, we can restart the fouth stage motor to vary the orbit of satellites to be launched and you are asking, "Did we ever test MIRV"? how funny?

Do you still doubt after launching of 101 satellites and multiple satellites on different trajectories. The bus is already validated. And if I am not wrong Agni 3 itself has 3mirved warheads....

I could infer it based on the facts you cited. I am sure it also does convey message to our adversaries about our capabilities. And I can imagine, once the MIRVs are separated, they would inherit the source and destination coordinates for the kill. However, our messaging is firm when demonstrated similar to "Operation Shakti"

 

[screambowl]

Akash has been reported to have the capability to take on an LGB too. So, targetting an SRBM shouldn't be an issue. But is that the primary purpose of the Akash? Has that what the Akash has been designed for? You stir up sterile debates, quite unnecessarily.

LGB flies at 1000km/hr or the speed at which it is dropped.
SRMB RV re enters at 3-4 km/s

And when we bring Pakistan into dynamics of nuclear war, one thing they can do is they will opt for that option where they don't have to deliver with their wepons to avoid retaliation by India. They might simply pass off to Kashmiris or some radicals in India and from there they will try to hurt. This has been the most severe threat right now.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

If Mig29s are facing large number of single engine emergency landings, how come JF-17 fleet is not facing significant accident rate due to engine failures?

As I said, our Bisons fly more.

They claim that they have flown an rd93 for 7000 hours. The OEM guarantees 2200 hours only, and jf17 airframe has only 4000 hours.... It's mostly lies which comes from there. And no need to be an expert to expose them, just be alert.

 

[Bali78]

As I said, our Bisons fly more.

They claim that they have flown an rd93 for 7000 hours. The OEM guarantees 2200 hours only, and jf17 airframe has only 4000 hours.... It's mostly lies which comes from there. And no need to be an expert to expose them, just be alert.

That 7000 hrs claim is pure BS. However, even if they are flying less no of hrs, just 2 accidents for a fleet of this size ( ~100) is pretty good. Is it possible because of better maintenance compared to Indian Mig 29s?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That 7000 hrs claim is pure BS. However, even if they are flying less no of hrs, just 2 accidents for a fleet of this size ( ~100) is pretty good. Is it possible because of better maintenance compared to Indian Mig 29s?

2 accidents were reported. Doesn't mean there's only 2. Extra 12 Block 2 have been ordered after the block 2 production was over. Keep that in mind.

Even our few remaining non UPG Mig29s fly much more.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I could infer it based on the facts you cited. I am sure it also does convey message to our adversaries about our capabilities. And I can imagine, once the MIRVs are separated, they would inherit the source and destination coordinates for the kill. However, our messaging is firm when demonstrated similar to "Operation Shakti"

We had to do Op Shakti as we did not have proven technology. Shakti was more of a test of technologies and also to generate data for future technologies. In case of Missiles, We have proven the technology and also tested it as Agni-5.