India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[BlackOpsIndia]

The pount brought out by @DivineHeretic is what I also stated just after 27th Feb. please read my posts of that time. IAF just went clueless with options and they did not know what to do? They not only failed misrably to analyse the build up of fighters in Pak airspace but when the battle started, they even failed to respond in a way whichwas supposed to be their copy book response. IAF was stunned by what PAF did, but I know from my days as a fighter pilot that counter strikes are done without waste of time and when such fprmations are returning for landing, they are to be targeted and destroyed. IAF did not launch any such counter strike and called their failure a success. What stopped IAF from such counter strikes and who could have stopped them. It was ther sheer incompetence and nothing else.

I said same things after 27th and was branded as traitor and what not. It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important.

When Minty Agarwal was asked what she felt after seeing so many PAF aircraft headed towards India the otherwise soft spoken girl got shine in her eyes and couldn't hide her killing instincts and said "ye aa to gaye hain apni marzi se, ab wapas jayenge humari marzi se, aur wapas jayenge ki bhi nhi wo bhi hum hi decide karenge'.


So the order to stand down or no response would have been relayed by top brass. This was high alert time, even in peace time if there is some headed towards India IAF immediately scramble jets and have shot couple of things down, even a ballon from Pakistan on Independence day if you remember few years ago.

This is one of the reason it feels like pre agreed, to let PAF attack some empty fields to pacify domestic audience and Abhi just messed this arrangement. Lack of counter attack also indicates same, I can't ever believe that IAF will not fight Pakistan, even if they are at disadvantage. It's in our blood to sacrifice ourselves before letting enemy violate territorial integrity, we just can't help it no matter what top brass thinks.


If things comes to public too many top people will be striped naked (maybe up to PMO?), how these sell outs/planners preferred a drama over integrity of nation and reduced IAF to a joke.


In Pathankot attack too attack was let to happen and some casualties of Indians were desired to make it a big spectacle and extract diplomatic leverage. Who was in control and micro managing from Delhi? We all know. How lives of Indians were treated as just another thing to trap Pakistan, there will be justifications to these criminal acts. Like we sacrificed few to stop other attacks and saved more, but did we? Did we achieved anything in absolute terms, attacks happened after that too, only just bigger in magnitude.


At least with congress we knew traitors are ruling us and forces will still take revenge, now some Patriots and strong leaders are incharge of things our soldiers, integrity, respect is fed silently to enemies and other nation and we took it on ourselves to whitewash lies in unison, I am guilty of doing this myself couple of times now I don't care if I am branded traitor or what I will say what I feel with whatever logic and facts available.

 

[Paro]

I said same things after 27th and was branded as traitor and what not. It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important.

When Minty Agarwal was asked what she felt after seeing so many PAF aircraft headed towards India the otherwise soft spoken girl got shine in her eyes and couldn't hide her killing instincts and said "ye aa to gaye hain apni marzi se, ab wapas jayenge humari marzi se, aur wapas jayenge ki bhi nhi wo bhi hum hi decide karenge'.


So the order to stand down or no response would have been relayed by top brass. This was high alert time, even in peace time if there is some headed towards India IAF immediately scramble jets and have shot couple of things down, even a ballon from Pakistan on Independence day if you remember few years ago.

This is one of the reason it feels like pre agreed, to let PAF attack some empty fields to pacify domestic audience and Abhi just messed this arrangement. Lack of counter attack also indicates same, I can't ever believe that IAF will not fight Pakistan, even if they are at disadvantage. It's in our blood to sacrifice ourselves before letting enemy violate territorial integrity, we just can't help it no matter what top brass thinks.


If things comes to public too many top people will be striped naked (maybe up to PMO?), how these sell outs/planners preferred a drama over integrity of nation and reduced IAF to a joke.


In Pathankot attack too attack was let to happen and some casualties of Indians were desired to make it a big spectacle and extract diplomatic leverage. Who was in control and micro managing from Delhi? We all know. How lives of Indians were treated as just another thing to trap Pakistan, there will be justifications to these criminal acts. Like we sacrificed few to stop other attacks and saved more, but did we? Did we achieved anything in absolute terms, attacks happened after that too, only just bigger in magnitude.


At least with congress we knew traitors are ruling us and forces will still take revenge, now some Patriots and strong leaders are incharge of things our soldiers, integrity, respect is fed silently to enemies and other nation and we took it on ourselves to whitewash lies in unison, I am guilty of doing this myself couple of times now I don't care if I am branded traitor or what I will say what I feel with whatever logic and facts available.

I have an undifferentiated opinion on the whole fiasco. But we will be branded as gaddars for saying it out loud.

 

[Cole_phelps]

I said same things after 27th and was branded as traitor and what not. It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important.

When Minty Agarwal was asked what she felt after seeing so many PAF aircraft headed towards India the otherwise soft spoken girl got shine in her eyes and couldn't hide her killing instincts and said "ye aa to gaye hain apni marzi se, ab wapas jayenge humari marzi se, aur wapas jayenge ki bhi nhi wo bhi hum hi decide karenge'.


So the order to stand down or no response would have been relayed by top brass. This was high alert time, even in peace time if there is some headed towards India IAF immediately scramble jets and have shot couple of things down, even a ballon from Pakistan on Independence day if you remember few years ago.

This is one of the reason it feels like pre agreed, to let PAF attack some empty fields to pacify domestic audience and Abhi just messed this arrangement. Lack of counter attack also indicates same, I can't ever believe that IAF will not fight Pakistan, even if they are at disadvantage. It's in our blood to sacrifice ourselves before letting enemy violate territorial integrity, we just can't help it no matter what top brass thinks.


If things comes to public too many top people will be striped naked (maybe up to PMO?), how these sell outs/planners preferred a drama over integrity of nation and reduced IAF to a joke.


In Pathankot attack too attack was let to happen and some casualties of Indians were desired to make it a big spectacle and extract diplomatic leverage. Who was in control and micro managing from Delhi? We all know. How lives of Indians were treated as just another thing to trap Pakistan, there will be justifications to these criminal acts. Like we sacrificed few to stop other attacks and saved more, but did we? Did we achieved anything in absolute terms, attacks happened after that too, only just bigger in magnitude.


At least with congress we knew traitors are ruling us and forces will still take revenge, now some Patriots and strong leaders are incharge of things our soldiers, integrity, respect is fed silently to enemies and other nation and we took it on ourselves to whitewash lies in unison, I am guilty of doing this myself couple of times now I don't care if I am branded traitor or what I will say what I feel with whatever logic and facts available.

The game is much bigger than 40 CRPF soldiers, Abhinandan, Mig21 etc. Civilians shouldn't be in possession of such knowledge.

 

[Sulla84]

This is one of the reason it feels like pre agreed, to let PAF attack some empty fields to pacify domestic audience

What you say might be partly true. The only way to stop stand off weapons from being launched is by shooting off SAMs and AAMs across the loc/border. GOI/IAF top brass would have known on the morning of the 26th that a PAF response was coming, since DG ISPR promised a response. The fact that SAMs were not fired even at the PAF aircraft in the 10 km buffer zone, even after AAMs were fired by PAF shows that GOI wanted IAF to stand down.
I am also not inclined to buy the argument that PAF was targetting open spaces. There was also no way that Pakistan would have agreed to even a symbolic strike on Pakistan proper, after Pulwama, because it dilutes Pakistan's full spectrum deterrence aspiration . If you remember, they did not allow for a symbolic strike even after a much graver provocation after 26/11. Pakistan had to go for a disproportionate response, to deter Indian adventurism. They went for it, but missed the targets, due to IAF mig-21s giving them a surprise, and also due to jamming of the H4 SOWs..

 

[Deathstar]

What you say might be partly true. The only way to stop stand off weapons from being launched is by shooting off SAMs and AAMs across the loc/border. GOI/IAF top brass would have known on the morning of the 26th that a PAF response was coming, since DG ISPR promised a response. The fact that SAMs were not fired even at the PAF aircraft in the 10 km buffer zone, even after AAMs were fired by PAF shows that GOI wanted IAF to stand down.
I am also not inclined to buy the argument that PAF was targetting open spaces. There was also no way that Pakistan would have agreed to even a symbolic strike on Pakistan proper, after Pulwama, because it dilutes Pakistan's full spectrum deterrence aspiration . If you remember, they did not allow for a symbolic strike even after a much graver provocation after 26/11. Pakistan had to go for a disproportionate response, to deter Indian adventurism. They went for it, but missed the targets, due to IAF mig-21s giving them a surprise, and also due to jamming of the H4 SOWs..

If we resort to asking for symbolic strikes then its better we disband our whole nation. No point in losing lives unnecessarily and spending billions on defence. Such a sad state of affairs if at all such things happen

 

[rockstarIN]

3. The only thing that went wrong that day was the Wg Cdr Abhinandan, VrC episode. He got away because of shooting down a F-16 (confirmed from AWACS and IADS 'captures') and also because of being in public eye.

There is a lack of clarity in this matter.

-He crossed due to his Rcomm was jammed by PAF or even the our own Su which was protecting the area?
-Is he deliberately crossed over since his R-73 seeker locked on F-16?

 

[Sulla84]

If we resort to asking for symbolic strikes then its better we disband our whole nation. No point in losing lives unnecessarily and spending billions on defence. Such a sad state of affairs if at all such things happen

Manmohan via McCain had asked for it after 26/11, Pakistan had instead said that they would respond to any strike..

 

[Sunnylol]

Guys make up your mind first as to why India didn't respond. Was it that GOI wanted to give Pak a symbolic face-saving and help ease tension or the top brass of IAF was caught off guard? It can't be both.

IMHO it would be absurd to believe that IAF actually thought PAF won't respond after ISPR accepted the Balakot strikes. Also, the GOI was raring to go for escalation had Abhindandan not been released. What else do you folks want with the elections just a month away? Yes, there can be debates about not foreseeing the use of AMRAAM and not procuring longer-range AAM's. Please also cut IAF some slack the IAF also lost 3 aircraft in the first 2 days of Kargil but later subsequently made amends for them.

Please remember what MODI said the day Abhi was released--"yeh toh trailer tha.............." . And the first glimpse of that, we have seen in Abrogation of article 370. So a bigger game plan was already at play. Have some patience and trust this man, he is in it for the long haul, there is no point winning small battles while detracting from the bigger strategic goals. Also, notice activities have picked up In Balochistan, KPK, FATA.


There is no point fighting a battle of attrition with the PAF. We need to humiliate them royally and that will only be possible after S400 and Rafales come in! Pak is not awaiting any strategic induction into their armed forces in the short term, unlike India. So a huge power disparity will be created in the next 3/4 years. Let that happen first.

 

[Deathstar]

Manmohan via McCain had asked for it after 26/11, Pakistan had instead said that they would respond to any strike..

Then MMS was a pathetic and a coward tbh. They killes 200+ and we beg them a face save wow

 

[noksss]

I said same things after 27th and was branded as traitor and what not. It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important.

When Minty Agarwal was asked what she felt after seeing so many PAF aircraft headed towards India the otherwise soft spoken girl got shine in her eyes and couldn't hide her killing instincts and said "ye aa to gaye hain apni marzi se, ab wapas jayenge humari marzi se, aur wapas jayenge ki bhi nhi wo bhi hum hi decide karenge'.


So the order to stand down or no response would have been relayed by top brass. This was high alert time, even in peace time if there is some headed towards India IAF immediately scramble jets and have shot couple of things down, even a ballon from Pakistan on Independence day if you remember few years ago.

This is one of the reason it feels like pre agreed, to let PAF attack some empty fields to pacify domestic audience and Abhi just messed this arrangement. Lack of counter attack also indicates same, I can't ever believe that IAF will not fight Pakistan, even if they are at disadvantage. It's in our blood to sacrifice ourselves before letting enemy violate territorial integrity, we just can't help it no matter what top brass thinks.


If things comes to public too many top people will be striped naked (maybe up to PMO?), how these sell outs/planners preferred a drama over integrity of nation and reduced IAF to a joke.


In Pathankot attack too attack was let to happen and some casualties of Indians were desired to make it a big spectacle and extract diplomatic leverage. Who was in control and micro managing from Delhi? We all know. How lives of Indians were treated as just another thing to trap Pakistan, there will be justifications to these criminal acts. Like we sacrificed few to stop other attacks and saved more, but did we? Did we achieved anything in absolute terms, attacks happened after that too, only just bigger in magnitude.


At least with congress we knew traitors are ruling us and forces will still take revenge, now some Patriots and strong leaders are incharge of things our soldiers, integrity, respect is fed silently to enemies and other nation and we took it on ourselves to whitewash lies in unison, I am guilty of doing this myself couple of times now I don't care if I am branded traitor or what I will say what I feel with whatever logic and facts available.

You started with IAF's dismal performance

It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important. .

And ended with blaming PMO/Strong leadership

If things comes to public too many top people will be striped naked (maybe up to PMO?), how these sell outs/planners preferred a drama over integrity of nation and reduced IAF to a joke. .

Not sure , if the above comments are because of ur below logic

I will say what I feel with whatever logic and facts available

 

[RISING SUN]

There is a lack of clarity in this matter.

-He crossed due to his Rcomm was jammed by PAF or even the our own Su which was protecting the area?
-Is he deliberately crossed over since his R-73 seeker locked on F-16?

Coincidentally, I had checked today with IAF retired officer on this and his inputs were, PAF was able to jam communications between IAF's controller & jet. That's where everything started collapsing. After this, no comments.

 

[Yashpatel604]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1181476345764663297

 

[rockstarIN]

There is no point fighting a battle of attrition with the PAF. We need to humiliate them royally and that will only be possible after S400 and Rafales come in! Pak is not awaiting any strategic induction into their armed forces in the short term, unlike India. So a huge power disparity will be created in the next 3/4 years. Let that happen first.

then whats the point of 250+ Sus and 100+M2k/Mig 29? Isnt enough? we should not de escalate till we get their air asset down on air at LoC.

 

[Sunnylol]

then whats the point of 250+ Sus and 100+M2k/Mig 29? Isnt enough? we should not de escalate till we get their air asset down on air at LoC.

The point of those 250 Su 30 MKIs is to fight a full-fledged war and demolish PAF if required. The attrition cost will only make sense in a full-fledged war or even in a proper border conflict like Kargil. For short skirmishes like on 26/27th Feb you need planes and systems which have a significant technological arbitrage over Pakistanis.

It makes no sense escalating to a full-fledged war for avenging the death of 40+ CRPF soldier neither would it make sense to say lose 4 SU 30's in lieu of 8/9 F-16's considering a best-case scenario given the fact they are the same generation fighters. You can't expect F-16's falling down from skies like mosquitoes while having Su-30s intact. That's more like a PeeDeeF dream in reverse. The above scenario though can be a reality when we have those 36 Rafales, S400 and enough hardened blast pens near LoC.

 

[rockstarIN]

The point of those 250 Su 30 MKIs is to fight a full-fledged war and demolish PAF if required. The attrition cost will only make sense in a full-fledged war or even in a proper border conflict like Kargil. For short skirmishes like on 26/27th Feb you need planes and systems which have a significant technological arbitrage over Pakistanis.

It makes no sense escalating to a full-fledged war for avenging the death of 40+ CRPF soldier neither would it make sense to say lose 4 SU 30's in lieu of 8/9 F-16's considering a best-case scenario given the fact they are the same generation fighters. You can't expect F-16's falling down from skies like mosquitoes while having Su-30s intact. That's more like a PeeDeeF dream in reverse. The above scenario though can be a reality when we have those 36 Rafales, S400 and enough hardened blast pens near LoC.

The point is, unlike those F16, we could have managed to buy higher range R77s for Mig29s and Su MKIs and deploy the same. Then this would not have happened at all.

 

[Sunnylol]

The point is, unlike those F16, we could have managed to buy higher range R77s for Mig29s and Su MKIs and deploy the same. Then this would not have happened at all.

Absolutely! This I pointed out in the first comment itself! Why did the IAF not induct longer-range AAM even after 7 years of PAF procuring AMRAAM is something IAF leadership should answer. Hopefully, MoD bureaucrats will take them to task for this!

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

It makes no sense escalating to a full-fledged war for avenging the death of 40+ CRPF soldier

Of all the emotionally charged and idiotic comments/opinions being posted by keyboard warriors in this thread, this is the most repulsive and abhorrent I have come across. If this is the opinion of a rationalist then god save this country. I just hope that such an opinion is not widespread.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

We should be Happy that the Feb 26 - Feb 27 Events HAPPENED

AT LEAST we were able to Realise Ours AND the Enemy's Capabilities and Weaknesses

 

[DivineHeretic]

Of all the emotionally charged and idiotic comments/opinions being posted by keyboard warriors in this thread, this is the most repulsive and abhorrent I have come across. If this is the opinion of a rationalist then god save this country. I just hope that such an opinion is not widespread.

Actually I'm in agreement with this specific comment that you've quoted. Though I am somewhat confused by the debate my comments triggered. My intentions were something else. Oh well.

War with Pakistan for the sake of avenging even a 1000 soldiers doesn't make sense. In fact any war aimed at avenging anything with Pak doesn't make sense, not from a tactical perspective and definitely not from a strategic perspective. The pointed reason is that Pakistan is an irrational state.

Pakistan, and PA in particular, has always been a nation of half truths and selective interpretation of the truth. It is a ideological entity which defines victory as merely not being destroyed. Cristina Fair got it absolutely right about the PA. It will always be victorious as long as it can avoid utter destruction, a degree of action we as a nation are unwilling to commit to. As such any military action, even crushing defeat, merely strengthens its grip on power within Pakistan and within the minds of the deluded citizens.

And by God are Pakistan is deluded, perhaps outside of Imperial Japan in 1940s, no nation has been this divorced from reality in the history of civilization. You only need to look at the Pakistani newspaper reports on FATF or any other global engagements mentioning Pak. You'll find the Pakistani reports are at 180 degree odds with the reporting in every other country. They've bought into their own propaganda and now live in a cocoon of their own truths. Reality be damned.

How do you go to war for revenge against this entity? Kill soldiers you might say. They'll willingly cart a hundred thousand soldiers to their deaths. The PA never cared about it's soldiers. Cannon fodder would be an understatement of the degree to which an ordinary soldier is valued.

If you're planning to go to war with Pakistan, the motive can't be revenge. It can't even be teaching them a lesson. The objectives have to be strategic: destruction of key capabilities, the capture of territory.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Pakistani Calculations are As Follows

They believe That Now and Henceforth there will only be Limited Conflicts

So In such Conflicts , They will be Able to Spin their OWN Narrative and Manipulate their Own Agenda , as they Did in February

So unless we Go for a Large Scale Conflict
Where we can Cause them Undeniable Losses And Damages , They will Again get away with all their Bag of Lies