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Disagreed on an incorrect view sir
IAF and IN follow the doctrine that when a strike goes out and returns, we fly defensive CAP to take on any enemy fighter which might be coming behind them. The returning strike is normally low on fuel and if the airfield is taken out, may not be able to divert. PAF had used their best in that raid and they did not have defensive CAP for returning strike aircraft. We could have easily shot them down.
 
Who are these people paid handsomely to make such assumptions? How were they so sure that PAF would definitely fail to intercept Balakote strike formation and if they succeed even partially, it would not be a start of see and shoot from that very moment?

Firstly, the number of casualties that the intelligence estimates have been able to verify on ground, went higher than what was possible for the enemy to deny. The operations were planned on the premise of the enemy denying a strike. Please recollect my post in the other forum in the aftermath of the Pulwama attack wherein I categorically stated a strike will come, designed in such a way so as to allow GoP to deny yet public enough. And through air.

Secondly, the only reason PAF was tasked to launch a strike was, if you recollect, the inability of GoP and DG ISPR to be able to deny IAF intrusion into the Pakistani Airspace. Please recall that DG ISPR had denied any strike taking place initially. Only when the local people started putting in the 'evidence' in Social Media, was the tack changed.

Thirdly, the failure of PAF to intercept Balakot strike package was because of multiple strike packages being launched all across the Western Border. PAF was simply hard put to accurately guess the real strike. Perhaps, there was flexibility in the strike package itself, with anyone who has any clue knowing fully well that there will be secondaries planned. So, perhaps Bhawalpur was secondary or maybe Balakot? Who knows?

The Pakistani assessment was probably for Bhawalpur, hence the diversion of PAF CAPs towards South on the 'expected' strike package which proved to be the feint.

In our village, if a guy comes home after slapping the other, he sleeps with desi katta (local made gun) overnight expecting the other guy to strike back. And these guys were resting after violating sovereignty of an enemy and then mocking them in broad day light next day on TV?

Where is my pessimist guy in all these planners?

Point? No one was not expecting a strike.



For me it was the only thing went well, if it does actually. By grace of him, we can say we retaliated to fighters which came to strike our military installations, otherwise where is the response?

There is a difference between a street brawl where you claim getting a jab on the other as a victory and the conduct of warfare. What he did, was put the mission in jeopardy, handover a psy-op victory to the enemy and set an example wherein transgression of orders is taken to be rewarding.


Our military installation must hold more sanctity than balakote. If the later can draw a response, why should not former?

There is a difference between reaction and responding. The latter is preferred.



It can happen to our own, but the problem is how many SAMs were fired on the real enemy? Do we have the counts?

Into PAF aircrafts in their side? ROE? Have you forgotten the GoI ROEs?

Sad state. For me it was a military let down, our economic and diplomatic clout is compensating for it.

That is your view. You have the right to it. But it is bereft of military logic and rationale.
 
Why should GOI take all the blame. As a military response was involved, IAF top brass was involved in the planning, and gauging the Pakistani response to the balakot strikes..


Guys, I feel like this is PDF ver 2.0 - my going round and round on the same point.

RULES OF ENGAGEMENTS WERE ISSUED BY GOVERNMENT OF INDIA!!!!

THE RULES SPECIFICALLY ASKED IAF TO TAKE DEFENSIVE MEASURES AS PREVALENT WHICH DID NOT HAVE WEAPONS FREE STATUS!
 
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I said same things after 27th and was branded as traitor and what not. It was such a dismal performance by IAF that next time when such opportunity for strike arrive any PM will consider other options, even no response than trusting IAF with things these important.

When Minty Agarwal was asked what she felt after seeing so many PAF aircraft headed towards India the otherwise soft spoken girl got shine in her eyes and couldn't hide her killing instincts and said "ye aa to gaye hain apni marzi se, ab wapas jayenge humari marzi se, aur wapas jayenge ki bhi nhi wo bhi hum hi decide karenge'.


So the order to stand down or no response would have been relayed by top brass. This was high alert time, even in peace time if there is some headed towards India IAF immediately scramble jets and have shot couple of things down, even a ballon from Pakistan on Independence day if you remember few years ago.

Because there was NO INTRUSION within Indian Airspace. Technical violations, yes. And the enemy fighters were flying away from LC, exiting the no fly zone, when IAF fighters came on scene. Shooting into their airspace with potential landing of a hit well across the no fly zone buffer i.e. 10 kms ... was a sure recipe for diplomatic disaster for GoI. What is so difficult to understand here?

And she was briefed to say precisely what she said.

Rest all of your post is screambowl ver 2.0. No logic, mere assumptions and comfort zone in it.
 
What you say might be partly true. The only way to stop stand off weapons from being launched is by shooting off SAMs and AAMs across the loc/border. GOI/IAF top brass would have known on the morning of the 26th that a PAF response was coming, since DG ISPR promised a response. The fact that SAMs were not fired even at the PAF aircraft in the 10 km buffer zone, even after AAMs were fired by PAF shows that GOI wanted IAF to stand down.
I am also not inclined to buy the argument that PAF was targetting open spaces. There was also no way that Pakistan would have agreed to even a symbolic strike on Pakistan proper, after Pulwama, because it dilutes Pakistan's full spectrum deterrence aspiration . If you remember, they did not allow for a symbolic strike even after a much graver provocation after 26/11. Pakistan had to go for a disproportionate response, to deter Indian adventurism. They went for it, but missed the targets, due to IAF mig-21s giving them a surprise, and also due to jamming of the H4 SOWs..


Already dealt with. Stupid to assume that you should engage an aircraft exiting the no fly zone on their side and shooting it down and then being able to prove that they were in violation. All the best if that is your appreciation.
 
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There is a lack of clarity in this matter.

-He crossed due to his Rcomm was jammed by PAF or even the our own Su which was protecting the area?
-Is he deliberately crossed over since his R-73 seeker locked on F-16?


The bold. He found a chance to get a kill, crossed, got separated from his wingman and luckily got a missile in. In the process getting shot out of the sky, and probably nixing the next phase of plans we had that day.

It is not a joke that PM Modi was prepared to strike Pakistan that night, if he was not returned. There is no doubt of the news. Confirmed and true.

Sometimes, for the larger objective, you have to hold yourself in check.
 
Already dealt with. Stupid to assume that you should engage an aircraft exiting the no fly zone on their side and shooting it down and then being able to prove that they were in violation. All the best if that is your appreciation.
Come on... By the time the PAF aircraft was in the 10 km buffer zone, they had already violated the ROE by firing across the loc, and trying to bring down IAF aircraft. We didn't have to prove anything, after PAF fired those AAMs.
 
Already dealt with. Stupid to assume that you should engage an aircraft exiting the no fly zone on their side and shooting it down and then being able to prove that they were in violation. All the best if that is your appreciation.
What if they were successful in their attempt of downing a Su 30 while violating the 10kms barrier and sticking to their side of the border? I wonder if the Pakistanis indulge in as much hair splitting as we do. Sometimes, it's better to stick to a black & white version instead of getting into the grey zone. They attempted to shoot down our AC. They failed. They attempted to bomb the Srinagar AIr base. They failed. They attempted to bomb brigade HQ. They failed. We didn't retaliate. We failed, I think this episode should end with this denouement. Anything else is besides the point best argued by lawyers & diplomats.
 
Coincidentally, I had checked today with IAF retired officer on this and his inputs were, PAF was able to jam communications between IAF's controller & jet. That's where everything started collapsing. After this, no comments.


I spoke to a former AWACS Officer, who said there was no AWACS on station. :)

Then I introduced him to his junior who was the pilot of AWACS that day .... :D

All the best if you think you will get the correct news from them. Recall the Heli shootdown? Ask @nair what I told him on 27th Feb evening ... confirmed to him that we downed it :D

But till as such time GoI did not come out with official leaks and statement, I requested him to keep a lid on it.
 
Absolutely! This I pointed out in the first comment itself! Why did the IAF not induct longer-range AAM even after 7 years of PAF procuring AMRAAM is something IAF leadership should answer. Hopefully, MoD bureaucrats will take them to task for this!


Because IAF can buy stuff right off the shelf and MoD is just waiting for them to send a proposal and next day weapons fly in

*sarcasm off*
 
Of all the emotionally charged and idiotic comments/opinions being posted by keyboard warriors in this thread, this is the most repulsive and abhorrent I have come across. If this is the opinion of a rationalist then god save this country. I just hope that such an opinion is not widespread.

Welcome to the real world son. That statement is true. Militarily and diplomatically.
 
Pakistani Calculations are As Follows

They believe That Now and Henceforth there will only be Limited Conflicts

So In such Conflicts , They will be Able to Spin their OWN Narrative and Manipulate their Own Agenda , as they Did in February

So unless we Go for a Large Scale Conflict
Where we can Cause them Undeniable Losses And Damages , They will Again get away with all their Bag of Lies


Bhai tum lado, humey na ladna hai. The day you go and fight .. let me know. Will pull out my chair and cheer you on. Till then, spare us.

You do not kill a nation by a large scale conflict, where, the enemy unites in face of defeat as we have seen since independence. You kill the nation by allowing it to kill itself. That is complete victory.

Do mukke do laat mein khush ho jate ho yaar. :mad:
 
Sure, you are free to have your opinion and thoughts. But that rationale has no bearing on my opinions and thoughts. Since, the armed forces are so adamant at keeping the civilians out of the loop during such incidents, my opinions will be formed accordingly. If the leadership of this country has the same line of thinking then I guess having no expectations from the armed forces at all is the best solution here.

So, how about this-
From my perspective (this is coming from someone whose family member is a Wing Commander in the Air Force), if my family members or I join the armed forces and somehow a random jihadi manages to blow my body apart including lets say the death of those 1000 other soldiers you mentioned, should we expect no escalation to war? Whats the point of these deaths then? Will these armed forces escalate if and only if some criterion are fulfilled? Who sets these arbitrary numbers as redlines? Will 2000 deaths suffice? or 5000? Or next you are gonna say that since there is no objective to be achieved with war, we should let these deaths go. Imagine telling the families that their husband's/son's life is really not worthy enough to go to war. What is the incentive here to join the armed forces? You do realize the signal that you are giving to the civilians here?

I get your point that PA are irrational actors, but are you telling me that those 1000s of strategists still haven't found a way to humiliate PA? Alright, if revenge cannot be a motive then start capturing land for every death that occurs. Step by step start eating up POK for every terrorist attack they orchestrate. How about publicly displaying the dead body of every infiltrator? That must have a psychological effect on general pakistani populace. Start a propaganda campaign to show the pakistani civillians the dead bodies of their fellow countrymen laying on LOC. All we get is a pathetic video once in 2 years or so. The whole of Pakistan can't be irrational, right? How about letting modi go to a world stage like UNGA and start displaying thousands of photos/videos showing pakistani bodies littering the LOC

Since I am a civilian and I have no basis to give such lectures/sermons, I'll stop lecturing the armed forces on what to do and how to do it. Enough people are already being paid to devise such strategies. But the least I expect the whole *censored*ing system to do, is to avenge those deaths somehow and present some tangible proof of the same. But even that is too much to ask while being branded a traitor.

The fact is that we are a nation that is larger than pakistan by a magnitude of several times and we still couldn't make it too expensive for them to sponsor terrorism in India. If we have failed at deterring them then its our complacency not theirs. Your explanation that that they are irrational and its not our fault, seems to me, is the result of same warped mindset. If we are still willing to take a sucker punch to our faces and not willing to retaliate, we really can't blame them if they keep punching us again and again. Which self respecting nation would let the death of 1000 soldiers slide like that?(paraphrasing you)

Somehow, my extremely subjective and pessimistic opinion is that, what we blame the PA for, is the same problem we have. After all, armed forces are comprised of humans, and humans everywhere have the same weaknesses. Nobody is innocent. After reading the incidents about IB being complicit with kashmiri politicians for milking the central govt., maybe just maybe, some higher ups in our chain of command have vested interests in keeping this shitshow in a status quo. I hope to god that this isn't so.

rant over /s.

This is precisely what you have admitted ..... a rant

Let me be very clear. No body has forced you or your family members to join the forces. Be very clear on that. I am ... :)
 
We never expected PAF to fire from within their own territory. And we did not have many fighters like M2K and SU-30MKI ready and loaded with AAMs. We were on defensive CAP with no intention of retaliatory action in case of a strike by PAF.

Sir. Again. Your view point. Not what actually was going on.
 
Yes you were prepared no doubt but PAF was little bit more prepared. They knew you were not expecting BVRAAMS!


My Dear Resident Military Expert.

No, no one in IAF was there who was not expecting a strike with use of BVRAAMs. That is why aircrafts had jammers and A-50 was on sector jamming mission. Mann kiya tha is liye le gaye was not the reason to carry around the jammers.

Please exercise those grey cells at times.

Regards
An Exasperated Me.
 
Sir. Again. Your view point. Not what actually was going on.
I would like to know what are your views. PAF played well that day. They stayed more than 10kms away from LOC and fired BVRAAMs from altitude advantage. Any fighter which is airborne for defensive or offensive ops will carry suitable armament and jammers.
 
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