India - Pakistan Standoff 2019

[Jaymax]

Well a unit will be for 68k, but when you buy in large qty. ofcourse it won't price you that much, but still costly enough.

Shri Screambowl ji to Raytheon execs - "Bhaiya theek theek laga lo... 2000 lene hain". Next will you suggest an all cash transaction to avoid sales tax?

My assessment is Pakistan has acquired/stolen Ex-Cal rounds from US which was leftover in Afghanistan. You think they did not? I can't prove it but to me it makes sense that they have at least tried to get it who knows they have or not. May be MI knows. In late 80's Pakistan had got stinger missiles from the leftover which they used in Kargil to down two of IAF aircrafts one was heli. India for 8 years was unaware of this fact, till some of those missiles were destroyed by the ISI.

The stingers were handed over to the Afghans and made their way to Pak. That is not the case with Excalibur. Or you think Pakistan made some mission impossible like heist at Bagram Airbase?

 

[screambowl]

This is tin foil hat conspiracy. You know US can lockout all its GPS enabled weapons individually. Once it loses its inventory? C'mon.

What if US did not want to it back. The same with Stringers, CIA knew Pakistanis have it. There is a machinery working in Pakistan as well, they also have intelligence , military. As if they are not working. Let's not be in LaLa land oh all is perfect. I never said they have got their hands on Ex-Cal, but there is a possibility. Just like they surprized us by firing the AMRAAM which IAF did not expect.
We also did not expect that they will use drones to ferry the weapon across IB into Punjab. But they did and BSF came to know only when one of them was spotted and only after that there is a high alert, oh teri yeh kya hua.

Again I mean they don't Cuz NATO, we don't cuz incompetent... wow... whereas both are buys from the same manufacturer. I mean you really don't sound logical. I mean this line of reasoning is so Pakistani-esque, and an insult to human evolution. (I don't want to demean you but this way of thought is just point blank asinine)

My point was the countries you have mentioned are part of NATO they will build them when required. By the way they share technology with eachother as both of them signatory to NPT and have been part of wassenar arrangement and I am not sure, if ex-Cal what India is agetting is through wassenar arrangement or not, because India is signatory to it.

Compared to India they are not even close to copying. Pakistanis have the intellect and technological capacity that is only slightly better than Afghanistan, heck even they would do better... Pakistani's have an average IQ is a 2 million year backward somersault on human evolution. Idiots have managed to ruin their country's science education by linking basic physics to religion. Those nut cases are only good at two things. Collecting toll on roads and painting weapons green. and in future they will only be repairing Punctured tyres.

I was talking about China, the copy master.

The stingers were handed over to the Afghans and made their way to Pak. That is not the case with Excalibur. Or you think Pakistan made some mission impossible like heist at Bagram Airbase?

The Afghans were armed by Pakistanis from Gotkhi airbase, supplied by US for the Nuristan region of Afg.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

This Thread has is Now FUBAR
BECAUSE OF @screambowl

 

[Sulla84]

What if US did not want to it back.

Please give ur conspiracy theories a break..

 

[Golden_Rule]

During UPA time its was more of such dhanda and this gets exploited by others, they know that to get a defence deal done, lure the babus and their generals, give admission to their kids in their country or give a job, things get done easily

Just imagine "there is no money for Rafale" - the Defencing puppet Anthony's son studied at Stanford.

 

[jetray]

Google Search Shows EXCALIBUR round price as 68 K USD

We can hardly afford 2000 such rounds

And who will Authorise Using this round on the Battlefield , LT Gen Rank or Major General Rank

Thats damn expensive for an artillery shell, we are simply funding their defence research.
Again it uses gps ...., why dont we learn lessons ?

 

[jetray]

It not about economy it is about economies of scale and there are only a handful of countries those have Excalibur rounds Australia, Canada, Netherlands and Sweden. All made in USA are you of the opinion that the above assessment is correct on why these countries also do not make the rounds ?

I dont think that holds good here. Artillery shell is used quite often and over a period of time with better refined technology costs will generally come down making it more affordable for the army. Given that we will be fighting land battles against two big enemies this is the technology we need to invest it. Next thing is once we start investing & developing such programs , seller will reduce the price.

 

[jetray]

Hmmmm....................China started funding the unis and R&D institutions around the world to get the best of the technology and Chinese have mastered the industrial espionage , but still importing jet engines from Russia . Quite interesting !!

Whether you like it or not chinese are nearly there, they may be lacking jet engines but I am certain with intent & discipline they have showed they will soon do it. It may be not the best engine but some thing which saves them a ton of money.

China has nearly 80-85% of the modern technology that west has which is a great achievement for a country doing it alone. They have built an ecosystem of univs & companies and are trying to make them commercially viable. If china had allies like america has then they will win hands down.

 

[Ashutosh]

I dont think that holds good here. Artillery shell is used quite often and over a period of time with better refined technology costs will generally come down making it more affordable for the army. Given that we will be fighting land battles against two big enemies this is the technology we need to invest it. Next thing is once we start investing & developing such programs , seller will reduce the price.

Look at it this way : There is no point in reinventing the wheel. Excalibur is not just a technologically advanced shell it is a precision guided weapon in itself. Then again it is not a defense critical technology. It is not being denied to us. There is no need to make them here. They aren't replacing conventional warheads and shells they are Special rounds for specific tasks. Pinaka Precision Guided MBRL (which is also categorized under artillery) have demonstrated such precision. These give us an edge to launch precision ammunition from mountain tops especially for M777 guns from where we cannot position a MBRL Battery.

 

[jetray]

Look at it this way : There is no point in reinventing the wheel. Excalibur is not just a technologically advanced shell it is a precision guided weapon in itself. Then again it is not a defense critical technology. It is not being denied to us. There is no need to make them here. They aren't replacing conventional warheads and shells they are Special rounds for specific tasks. Pinaka Precision Guided MBRL (which is also categorized under artillery) have demonstrated such precision. These give us an edge to launch precision ammunition from mountain tops especially for M777 guns from where we cannot position a MBRL Battery.

Right there is no point in re-inventing the wheel but we are paying an arm and leg for the same. Compared to nuke subs & fighter jets, this is a low hanging fruit which can be given to private companies. If we are going to use these type of shells for next 20 years then it makes more sense economically (amortization of cost) & strategically to produce inside the country.

You can say the same about drones, that they will never replace the fighter jets. But they are becoming a major part of advanced warfare. The technology has two dimensions , one it will advance further and become more sophisticated. Second it will reduce the costs further once the technology is mastered & refined.

Today it might not replace the conventional shells but tomorrow they might become core component of the artillery. What if US says they will no longer export it due to more demand by US forces or advanced technology involved. Then we will have to start from scratch and master the technology which is time consuming.

If you take a look at our armed forces interaction with enemy , majority of them take place at the lower level. Most of them involve medium calibre guns, artillery firings on land area. This section is where we need to invest more for better results as they are always in contact with enemy.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

Stand off is over I guess, whatever hope Pakistan had to use terrorists is killed today by FATF. Directly they can't flight, proxies option is closed.

 

[Paro]

Stand off is over I guess, whatever hope Pakistan had to use terrorists is killed today by FATF. Directly they can't flight, proxies option is closed.

They are going to stay there forever. One of the 4 main tasks is to establish a central bank terror finance investigations department to assist foreign agencies in investigations on terror money laundering. The latest report says the central and state banks don't have the capability or skill level to investigate such transactions and this cannot happen within a year or two. It's a long term skill building commitment that cannot happen under a security state like Pakistan.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Look at it this way : There is no point in reinventing the wheel. Excalibur is not just a technologically advanced shell it is a precision guided weapon in itself. Then again it is not a defense critical technology. It is not being denied to us. There is no need to make them here. They aren't replacing conventional warheads and shells they are Special rounds for specific tasks. Pinaka Precision Guided MBRL (which is also categorized under artillery) have demonstrated such precision. These give us an edge to launch precision ammunition from mountain tops especially for M777 guns from where we cannot position a MBRL Battery.

Conventional 155 Mm shells cost 1000 USD per shell , So the question is whether an Excalibur
Really Worth it at 68 K per shell

 

[Milspec]

There you go, we are still dependent on american ammo

GPS guided excel or laser guided copperhead are just more accurate 155 mm ammunition, that does not mean that regular 155mm ammunition has lost its place. OFB has been making significant amount arty ammo for the forces.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Does ANYBODY know Why an Excalibur is So expensive

@randomradio @Milspec

 

[Milspec]

Conventional 155 Mm shells cost 1000 USD per shell , So the question is whether an Excalibur
Really Worth it at 68 K per shell

Depends on its application, similar is the price difference between a 1000lb air dropped bomb and a PGM.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Depends on its application, similar is the price difference between a 1000lb air dropped bomb and a PGM.

But a Spice Bomb will cause a Lot of Destruction

A 68 K Shell is Worth it if it can Knock out a
A Single 155 mm Gun , which is nearly worth 2 Million dollars

 

[Milspec]

Does ANYBODY know Why an Excalibur is So expensive

@randomradio @Milspec

Guidance kit that can sustain very high acceleration.

and by very high i mean the Order of Magnitude (acceleration) of 152 210 m/s2, i.e rating of 15,500g's not kidding 15,500g'ss. These are extremely well-engineered mems accelerometers which in their COTS format are rarely even capable of being rated above 2000g's. Along with the redundant Triax, it needs g rated control surfaces, an actuation mechanism, internal microcontroller circuits that can sustain such high forces.

 

[Milspec]

But a Spice Bomb will cause a Lot of Destruction

A 68 K Shell is Worth it if it can Knock out a
A Single 155 mm Gun , which is nearly worth 2 Million dollars

You can knock out a 155 mm gun with your mortar if you wanted to, provided you have a good mechanism for triangulation. GPS is not the secret to success, especially with mobile targets.

Now if you have drone that is feeding you realtime targeting info, then your option widen up, with realtime GPS coordinated a good gunner can get to the target with his own counter-battery volley, then there is active lasing and copperhead type round which are cheaper than gps guidance. etc.

 

[jetray]

Depends on its application, similar is the price difference between a 1000lb air dropped bomb and a PGM.

Irrespective of what it does or worth , whatever product is sold by US is always going to be expensive for us. US sells product from a value added perspective to make more money not from economy of scale.

Even if they sell two goats or biryani out of goat, it will still cost more than elsewhere.