If weight is the issue then they should be going for Caesar otherwise Tata SED is also an option.
If weight is the issue then they should be going for Caesar otherwise Tata SED is also an option.
It is simple actually. Buying 1,580 howitzers from outside is impossible now.
Also, Army artillery long term plan is for around 3,200 guns if I remember correctly. So 155/52 is around half of it.
It is a bit funny.
Athos is a 155mm/52 caliber gun that was developed from the M71 Soltam 45 Caliber Gun.
Bharat 52 is a 155mm/52 caliber gun that was developed from the GC45
Both the M71 Soltam and the GC 45 are derivatives of the GHN45 Gerrard Bull Gun.
This GHN45 has tried to enter Indian Army in so many shapes and form, it has been quite amusing.
T6 turret on the Bhim SPH, was also based on a GHN45
Israel has tried to sell the Atmos to India which was based on a GHN45
And now the Athos which is too has roots based on a GHN45
Kalyani has tried selling the Bharat52 which is based on a GHN45
FYI Bharat52 is 15 ton gun.
155mm 52 cal gun, with automated loading system and soft recoil. also making it c130 capable per @randomradio.
Exactly same capability, made in India, all IPR indian, wonder why would Indian Army select an Israeli gun then?
155mm 52 cal gun, with automated loading system and soft recoil. also making it c130 capable per @randomradio.
Exactly same capability, made in India, all IPR indian, wonder why would Indian Army select an Israeli gun then?
Interesting thing Kalyani stands to gain from this either way. Only difference is in the level of profit margin. So I am inclined to believe it is a done deal . Very disappointing and pathetic to say the least. Make in India my foot.
Irony is army and airforce both of which are pathetic when it comes to adopting or supporting development of indigenous technology , except since 1 / 2 years that too in name , is now lecturing navy on procurement who has been always pro indigenous .
Well the only good thing to come of this shittty news is that it has finally managed to motivate me to quit forumbazzi
Good luck to you guys and wish me too
I could use the same
And take care
Irony is army and airforce both of which are pathetic when it comes to adopting or supporting development of indigenous technology , except since 1 / 2 years that too in name , is now lecturing navy on procurement who has been always pro indigenous .
Well the only good thing to come of this shittty news is that it has finally managed to motivate me to quit forumbazzi
Good luck to you guys and wish me too
I could use the same
And take care
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The tender is kinda, sorta older than Dhanush, ATAGS or Bharat 52. If I recall correctly, it started in 2011, when the other three guns were only on paper. Normally the tender should have been done by 2014 or 2015 and deliveries should have started by now. But this is India.
But the issue between ATHOS and Bharat 52 is the fact that ATHOS is battle proven and the supplier is known to be reliable, versus Bharat Forge's lack of experience as well as a relatively new and unproven design. With ATAGS, the army is already taking a risk with a new design, so it's obvious they want something they know is reliable as an alternative.
Can't argue for Dhanush being an alternative since it's less advanced, and now it turns out is also more expensive than the ATHOS. In fact ATHOS is more advanced than the ATAGS.
In simple terms:
Bharat 52 - Not proven and risky.
ATAGS - Heavy and requires Mk2 modernisation.
Dhanush - 45 cal right now, requires range extension and modernisation.
ATHOS - Battle proven, technologically advanced, fully autonomous, cheapest of all other options. Possible advanced ammunition options that do not exist in India.
So the IA is doing a good job balancing it out with a mix of proven and development models. Just guessing, but I think ATHOS will likely end up with the strike corps and other very important units, like offensive IBGs, while the ATAGS and Dhanush will likely end up with other units.
babaji,
battle-proven and the supplier is known to be reliable, versus lack of experience as well as a relatively new and unproven design.
The above-stated sentiment negates 50% of your posts on this and other forums that I have come across, you sure you want to flog that donkey?
Next: per design,
conversion of a 45 cal to 52 cal is one of the most simple changes as long as carriage can support it.
Given both M71 and GC45 are based on the GHN45 system, there is not much difference in the design.
Next there are no foreign operators for ATHOS
There are foreign operators for the M71gun and Atmos SPH based on the M71. Thus I am guessing you are claiming "battle proven".
On M71 less than 300-400 units exists in foreign operations.
If you apply the same rationale to Bharat 52's base gun i.e GC45, G5, GHN45 and SPH T6, PLZ45, there are probably close to 5 times the number of units out there based on the M71 which itself is btw based on GC45 gun. If anything praising M71's design just reinforces the business case for the Bharat 52.
It's like buying the IWI Jericho 941 while ignoring the CZ75.
This is where I disagree with you. If he's realistic, you have a problem. If he's in his elements, you've a problem then too. He gives you three different perspectives , self confessedly. From the developer, manufacturing & user PoV. And you've only criticism to offer. Koi kare toh kya kare? Think of his plight.What would he do or rather what should he do? Something, Like this..
Soltam isn't a first-time designer of guns. M-71 gave birth to ATHOS, ATHOS gave birth to ATMOS, and the M-71 is in turn based on the M-68, which in turn is based on a European original design, all done by the same company. So the current ATHOS's development spans 4 generations. IIRC, the ATHOS itself is a modernised M-71, and its cousin ATMOS has been in operation for nearly 15 years. So yeah, it is a proven design. To claim something is proven, you have to get into the nitty-gritty of the design and not just look at what it has been inspired by.
Logically, we "do not need" the ATHOS, but realistically the IA has been burned far too many times in the name of indigenisation. Especially when it's well-known that ATHOS is a bird in the hand while ATAGS is still a bird in the bush. DRDO is currently pushing for the IA to lower weight and accuracy requirements for the ATAGS in the new PSQR. The army is suggesting making a Mark 2 while making smaller inductions of the current "Mark 1". Furthermore, Midhani is working on titanium barrels for ATAGS, which means a rise in costs.
Given all such risks, I don't think the IA will cancel the existing order of 400 ATHOS, even if the licensed production of 1180 guns is cancelled in favour of ATAGS. Purely in terms of paper specs of moving parts, the ATHOS is most definitely inferior to ATAGS, so the future of ATAGS is much better as long as the concerns are addressed. For example, the ultimate goal is to bring the ATAG's weight to 12T and increase the range to 60Km.
The Dhanush is also under risk of increasing weight. The 45 cal version already weighs about 13T. So it's unknown to what extent the weight will increase once upgraded to 52 cal, unless a push is made towards using titanium here as well.
Any procurement should be considered from the PoV of the user and not the industry. Take the Kalyani ULH for example. They made a titanium version of the ULH at 4.5T, but the army was willing to accept an all-steel version at 7T, all paid for by the army, and now Kalyani has both versions available. So they do make concessions where possible. Maybe the IA will change their minds once the inital lot of 150 ATAGS are in operation. However they are keeping all their options open.
Except:
M68 and M71 were derived from a finnish 122mm K60, where M68 was a 155mm 33 cal gun and 71 an extended 39 cal gun
Then came the 45 cal upgrade named 845P (and a 39cal variant 839p, which did not find a buyer) both based on the GHN45/GC45
Finally 852P gun is the 52 cal gun
Both Soltam Athos and Atmos guns are actually 852 guns based on the 845 and not the original 39cal M71 gun. Wiki is actually wrong and Soltam is not quite open about publicizing that.
Soltam has developed ATMOS as a modular system with multiple options for tube selection and firing control (SUP) systems. ATMOS can be mounted on a suitable tactical truck of 6 × 6 (or 8 × 8) configuration with a total weight of 17 to 22 tons.
ATMOSU has been preceded by a number of artillery system development projects that demonstrate the continued progress and follow-up of recent global artillery trends. Thus, as part of the Israeli army's artillery units, the M71 hauler is 155 mm in caliber and a barrel length of 39 caliber. The self-described caterpillar version of the same cannon is called Rascal. The Slammer system is a dome version of the 155/52 mm top-hood on the Merkava tank chassis. Soltam also developed a modernization package on a 155 caliber American M114 howitzer and a Russian M46 cannon (originally in 130mm caliber). M71 hood variants have also been developed, namely the Model 839P with an auxiliary engine, the Model 845P with a 45-caliber tube and the 852P with a 52-caliber tube.
The 852P elevator mass, which is offered as part of the ATHOS traction artillery system (852P with added firing controls), has also been applied to the ATMOS system. Like ATMOS, ATHOS can be equipped with an automatic charger and advanced electronic equipment such as a ballistic computer, navigation system or radar to measure the initial velocity of a missile. The latest towing version, ATHOS 2000 is available on the international market and in the face of fierce competition, seeks to take the job away from competitors from Europe, South Africa and the US.
Samovozni topnički sustav ATMOS - Hrvatski vojnik
The Model 839P is a version of the Soltam M839 howitzer, fitted with an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for self-propulsion and various gun services such as opening and closing the trail legs. It was first demonstrated in 1983. It was followed in 1984 by the Model 845P, which was similar but was fitted with a 45 calibre barrel in place of the 39 calibre barrel of the Model 839P. In many ways the Model 845P is similar to the Model 839P. The M845P is also available without the APU in which case total weight is 9,400 kg.
In 1995, Soltam stated that guns with a 155 mm 52 calibre NATO standard barrel could be supplied by special request. As far as is known the 155 mm/52 calibre model has yet to enter production. This has been developed for the export market.
This Soltam 155 mm system, when fitted with a 45 or 52 calibre ordnance and an APU has also been referred to as the TIG 2000.
Army Guide
SRS GC-45 / Noricum GHN-45 155mm Towed Field Howitzer - Canada
AFAIK, the ATHOS 2052 is an upgunned M-71. But it also used tech from the GC-45 family when it came to design the APU and the new barrel which was done under the TIG 2000 family, the 839, 845, 945 etc. Meaning, the ATHOS isn't just a modernised GC-45 or GHN-45.
But if ATHOS is indeed an MKIzed GHN-45, which Bharat Forge now owns, then this is basically Israeli additions to an "Indian owned" gun.
The only difference being that Athos being a proven platform and Bharat 52 is not. This and that it seems that the French gun was superior than the Israeli one. The Israelis underbid the French and I think it seems that Israeli guns are cheaper than Dhanush too which is why the Army seems eager for this. Otherwise it's the Israeli kickback the Officers are waiting for...
Given that Kalyani group has tech partnership with Elbit, they are not going to rabble rouse this issue. Kalyani's Beas program for up gunning 130mm m46 comes from elbit. And Kalyani might also get to be IWI's Indian license production partner.
As far as pricing is concerned, Dhanush is 14 cr iirc.
ATAGS is a game-changer and will remain in contention for a much larger order. As long as Indian Army is getting some guns, it should come as a good news for all.
As far as pricing is concerned, Dhanush is 14 cr iirc.
ATAGS is a game-changer and will remain in contention for a much larger order. As long as Indian Army is getting some guns, it should come as a good news for all.
Stick a couple of Bharat 52's in the deolali proving grounds and kick the snot out of it; unless Bharat Forge has made a mess out of the gun it should do fine as GC45 is pretty good platform. Even if the Indian army picks up 100 units it gives the domestic manufacturer teeth to bite the competition globally. It seems like Bharat 52 is competing in KSA for an order.
With Bharat52 and Bharat 45 you have an Indian Private manufacturer offering two long-range platforms, Kalyani's MARG-ER, Marg-ET; two versions of 155mm in 52 and 39 cal Light and ultralight guns.
Then you have DRDO-Tata Power SED- Kalyani two variants of the ATAGS
and then DRDO FH77 45 cal gun
A country which cannibalized half of its FH77 fleet now has internal resources for 7 different guns.
Not a bad problem to have at all.
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The artillery which we have we are not using it properly and you want more for what? This is the only reason why I don't really have to post professionally. Because there is no point. 5 years back I stopped following procurement news and defence related updates.
You have one tejas which you could have deployed at forward bases as they require less fuel. But you didn't do. Whats the point of having ti in inventry then? And what hell are you testing in South India , did any one tell them that Pakistan lies on the south and not west of India?
You are hiding the capabilities of your weapons, okay, but do you yourself know what they are capable of unless until they get tested in real time scenarios?
You have bofors and light field gun which solves the purpose as it has been tested, you haven tested Tata SED at the front, nor ATAGS and you want to go for western stuff. Because its proven. Well then decommission Tejas and Arihant as well because both of them aren't proven.
I have been saying this that since ages that test in real time scenario or else don't ask DRDO to have high standards all the time and changing the requirements every year before giving clearance.
In coming 3 years, India really need to speed up it's procurement and should have atleast 700 more artillery units 52 cal. So what you have and can immediately build at home, perfect it.
You have one tejas which you could have deployed at forward bases as they require less fuel. But you didn't do. Whats the point of having ti in inventry then? And what hell are you testing in South India , did any one tell them that Pakistan lies on the south and not west of India?
You are hiding the capabilities of your weapons, okay, but do you yourself know what they are capable of unless until they get tested in real time scenarios?
You have bofors and light field gun which solves the purpose as it has been tested, you haven tested Tata SED at the front, nor ATAGS and you want to go for western stuff. Because its proven. Well then decommission Tejas and Arihant as well because both of them aren't proven.
I have been saying this that since ages that test in real time scenario or else don't ask DRDO to have high standards all the time and changing the requirements every year before giving clearance.
In coming 3 years, India really need to speed up it's procurement and should have atleast 700 more artillery units 52 cal. So what you have and can immediately build at home, perfect it.