Indian Army Artillery Systems : News and Updates

_Anonymous_ said:
It's been 2022 from 1st Jan 2022 this yr & will end on 31st December this year . The rest is all storytelling . Like for instance the reaction in # 1211 is an expression of wonderment at the number of RFI's / RFP's being floated , unlike the explanation offered in #1213.

The concrete roadmap was unveiled in MP's tenure . That was in 2016 when the Rafale G2G was signed & the MMRCA 1.0 declared dead after being comatose since 2012.

MRFA RFI should've been issued immediately . Further 36 Rafales should've been procured by now . Neither happened then nor till date . In fact IAF which was fast asleep since 2016 finally woke up in Dec 2021 promising to release the RFI in a year though what exactly was novel about the tender documents is till date a big mystery since the usual suspects are participating once again with the addition of the F-15 . Plus no trials . It's since been pushed to 2023 not 2022 as was originally planned .

MRCBF decision expected by end 2022 hasn't yet materialized. It'd happen in 2023. MKI MLU pending since 2015-16 with the decision to go in for local upgradation / modernization taken some time back except it was made public this year . In the event the final upgraded variant will only debut in 2026. Once more 2022 fail. AMCA CDR not yet frozen nor funds alloted. Mk-2 was initially due for taxi trials in July Aug 2022 with first flight to follow in exactly a year's time . Now it's shifted to 2023-24 & 2024-25 respectively. Additional Funds allocated this yr for Mk-2 pending since God knows when ? Probably the only take away of 2022.

No official decision taken yet on IAC -2 . Likely will be taken in 2023. It's very likely that no such long lead procurements of either program has occured or that it may have occurred last yr or the yr before last or even next yr . There's nothing to say either way . Nothing was decided in 2021 or 2020 or even in 2022 as the evidence in the public domain & as documented here proves. Who would've guessed that 2022 would be like any other yr after everything under the sun was promised & since nothing spectacular materialized it's back to one's favourite occupation cum hobby once more - story telling. Attempting to Spin things off on an extremely unhelpful surface.

IA's attempts at a non ATAGS tender is it's second in the past 7-8 yrs & it's still an RFI. The only good news is the ATAGS cleared the PSQRs.

The world order is in the process of being changed & it's a saga which is a continuation of the events of 1990 namely the collapse of the ex SU . What's happened this year was foretold by the events of 2014. China's been in trouble since end 2019 when the Wuhan virus first made it's appearance. What's happening now is only the continuation of that story . Ditto for Pakistan whose tryst with 9 lives began in 1947 . Since then it's been dying & resurrected every other decade if not every decade.

If 2019 onwards was bad for them , every successive yr has proven worse with 2022 being the worst till date in recent memory & going by the trends 2023 will be worse than 2022.

The rest of the achievements listed are the kind we see every yr . Why would 2022 be an exception ? In fact the CAG report castigating DRDO should prove why 2022 is some sort of annus horribilis ( no sweetie , it's not what you think it is . @Innominate )

Sadly the scoreline still reads -

PKS - 7-8/10
Resident ST - 0/10.

Just one prediction true would've made that a cent percent strike rate . Unfortunately it wasn't to be . One can still try for 2025 , now that a lot of decisions will happen next yr but since one didn't quite project 2023 in the same light , one can't now suddenly jump on to the 2023 bandwagon . Henceforth , one could / should just declare - 2025 is the new 2022.
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Sir, with all respect, @randomrmakes puts in a lot of effort to analyze all available information and makes best gueses, informed judgements and reasoned calls and contributes positively to this forum. Its easy to to criticise, grt personal, carry on contributing pure negativity and discrediting and not to mention comment sarcastically in hind sight.

PKS is as good or as bad as any if the gurus here in all matters except in the area of what capital equipment would be selected only here he scores 7/8 out of 10.
(Btw he has confirmed on his blog the f18 would be purchased for the 26 mrcbf and it could still be a possibility. )

Again, sir no disrespect meant towards you as a senior member and my sincere apologies for any hurt I may have caused by my comments. but I am hoping good people won't be leaving this forum as some have in the past due to constant personal attacks or harsh criticism.
 
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Sathya said:
K9 still waiting for follow on orders.

Talked about 200/100/40 numbers but nothing signed yet.
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The dealing hand knows better, if the necessity arises it will be ordered. I think there is no hard and fast rule that you need trials before deploying any weapon when there is war.
 
AllStirFry said:
Sir, with all respect, @randomrmakes puts in a lot of effort to analyze all available information and makes best gueses, informed judgements and reasoned calls and contributes positively to this forum. Its easy to to criticise, grt personal, carry on contributing pure negativity and discrediting and not to mention comment sarcastically in hind sight.

PKS is as good or as bad as any if the gurus here in all matters except in the area of what capital equipment would be selected only here he scores 7/8 out of 10.
(Btw he has confirmed on his blog the f18 would be purchased for the 26 mrcbf and it could still be a possibility. )

Again, sir no disrespect meant towards you as a senior member and my sincere apologies for any hurt I may have caused by my comments. but I am hoping good people won't be leaving this forum as some have in the past due to constant personal attacks or harsh criticism.
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Don't take him that seriously, he has difficulty acting his age, but he conflates his age with wisdom, hence all the condescension. Neither of us take tu-tu, mein-mein seriously, or at least I don't.

Back in 2017-18 or so I had claimed that because of prior committments, lack of govt foresight and budget limitations, it will take until 2022 to resolve these niggles before long term deals are signed. This prediction was simply based on how our bureaucracy worked when we used to make our goals based on 5-year plans. So my point was not to expect long term deals until 2022. That only small deals like Rafale will be signed to plug gaps. This went into overdrive after 2019. So my point was to forget about the 2017-2022 period, 2022-2027 will be the era for new deals, as is happening now.

As predicted, after signing various small short-term deals like Apache/Chinook, M777, Rafale, a few hundred tanks and BMPs etc during this period, our first long term deal signed in years was the license production of C-295, signed a few months before 2022. Basically, it was the start of these long term deals.

It was just Ignorants' meddlesome nose-poking antics unique to him that he got hung up on 2022. And it just so happened that in 2022 all these very important and crucial programs were finalised. So he deserves the credit, not me. I simply played along. After all, us folks in the younger generation have been taught to play along with the antics of the older generation out of respect for them.
 
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This is what I wrote in 2019 arround 3 yrs ago about the SOP of Resident storyteller back in the day when we were pals . Have things changed ? Absolutely not . Will 2022-27 be the golden age for Indian defense ? Absolutely not ? Will it prevent Resident ST from claiming it to be the golden age of Indian defence ? Absolutely not.

This isn't to say that our personnel policies procedures procurements & platforms will be absolute disasters . No , far from it . It's rather going to be a reflection of the maturity we have gained thru decades of painful experience , of our relative economic prosperity & of our response to the impending threat across the LAC .

Yet there would be a few major areas where our responses would be found sorely lacking & I'd pin point the IAF as the chief culprit here not so much as to the other programs but as to the MRFA / Rafales saga & how they're going about their preparations to meet the PLAAF head on in the 2030s .


Meanwhile enjoy the tales of Resident Story Teller who used to be known as resident optimist then . Since then he's received several upgrades to his status like one does from member to senior member to elite & on & on ..

Post in thread 'Indian Economy : News,Discussions & Updates' Indian Economy : News,Discussions & Updates
 
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All I hear are excuses by a civilian who has no clue how the military or the MIC works. Can't really argue against people who idolise Prasun da. :ROFLMAO:

The forces know best.
 
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Civilian? I sincerely hope that being associated with a DPSU doesn't qualify one to be an ex serviceman . Wind bag did that to get professional status in P D F.

I actually love PKS for his mullings on aliens . Everything else is a distant 2nd , more like no 10 on the list. But I think I can see the need to diss him. 😁

It happens when one is so hopelessly off the mark.

Who denies it? @ forces know best. All that's being questioned is the strange mythical abilities of some members to have an in depth idea about how the forces think without any shred of evidence,make predictions (instead of offering them as ones opinions) , fall flat on once face when the exact opposite happens like in the HTT episode & then pretend to be inspecting the flooring like claiming to always support the HTT from the beginning.

Sort of a reiteration of what I posted about the SOP in #1225.
 
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The issue wasn't the signature of the contract & deliveries at all rather it was the selection of it in the first place over the Pilatus which was vehemently denied offering all sorts of justifications bordering on the ludicrous at times .

More a case of shifting goalposts confirming what I've been describing above , thus conforming to the SOP I've been detailing here . 😁
 
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AllStirFry said:
Sir, with all respect, @randomrmakes puts in a lot of effort to analyze all available information and makes best gueses, informed judgements and reasoned calls and contributes positively to this forum. Its easy to to criticise, grt personal, carry on contributing pure negativity and discrediting and not to mention comment sarcastically in hind sight.

PKS is as good or as bad as any if the gurus here in all matters except in the area of what capital equipment would be selected only here he scores 7/8 out of 10.
(Btw he has confirmed on his blog the f18 would be purchased for the 26 mrcbf and it could still be a possibility. )

Again, sir no disrespect meant towards you as a senior member and my sincere apologies for any hurt I may have caused by my comments. but I am hoping good people won't be leaving this forum as some have in the past due to constant personal attacks or harsh criticism.
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This is absolutely correct. @randomradio is by far the best poster of this entire board. He is not perfect, but then no human is! Love his posts🙂
 
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Ashwin said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1606645203322142721

Good thread
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Plains will get a lot of MGS. Towed guns used in the plains will need to be Himalayas-friendly, so many of the MGS will stay back post major operations along the Pak front.

As for indigenisation percentages, Sharang is at 100%, Dhanush is at 81%, ATAGS is at 75% with a roadmap to get to 88% and K9 is at 50%. ATHOS was gonna be 70% with the order for 400 guns. And the Israelis claim 100% of the gun will eventually be manufactured in India for the remaining 1180. So the indigenisation of ATHOS will be higher than our own guns. So ATHOS will eventually be more Indian than ATAGS. Kalyani was supposed to build the 400 guns we wanted, although now I believe Adani is the new partner. And all this at almost half the cost of the ATAGS while also meeting requirements, the latter being most important to the IA and the former being most important to the MoF. So you can see why the IA prefers ATHOS over ATAGS.

Parade GTV is not the same as combat GTV. Parade GTV moves at the same speed as soldiers marching, whereas combat GTV is expected to do 80-100 Kmph during sustained operations.
 
randomradio said:
Plains will get a lot of MGS. Towed guns used in the plains will need to be Himalayas-friendly, so many of the MGS will stay back post major operations along the Pak front.

As for indigenisation percentages, Sharang is at 100%, Dhanush is at 81%, ATAGS is at 75% with a roadmap to get to 88% and K9 is at 50%. ATHOS was gonna be 70% with the order for 400 guns. And the Israelis claim 100% of the gun will eventually be manufactured in India for the remaining 1180. So the indigenisation of ATHOS will be higher than our own guns. So ATHOS will eventually be more Indian than ATAGS. Kalyani was supposed to build the 400 guns we wanted, although now I believe Adani is the new partner. And all this at almost half the cost of the ATAGS while also meeting requirements, the latter being most important to the IA and the former being most important to the MoF. So you can see why the IA prefers ATHOS over ATAGS.

Parade GTV is not the same as combat GTV. Parade GTV moves at the same speed as soldiers marching, whereas combat GTV is expected to do 80-100 Kmph during sustained operations.
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ATAGS is 95 percent indigenous .
 
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Chain Smoker said:
ATAGS is 95 percent indigenous .
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Unfortunately not enough knowledgeable critics to correct in-house manchild just a lot of fanboys hanging on to every word like it's the Gospel.

Wonder where's @Milspec these days or even @Sancho ?

Besides the cost & weight part have been explained innumerable times to the electric drives & 25 litre chamber. Knock that off & you'd easily get a > 15 ton ATAGS on par with the ATHOS. We aren't doing an apple to apple comparison at all.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Unfortunately not enough knowledgeable critics to correct in-house manchild just a lot of fanboys hanging on to every word like it's the Gospel.

Wonder where's @Milspec these days or even @Sancho ?

Besides the cost & weight part have been explained innumerable times to the electric drives & 25 litre chamber. Knock that off & you'd easily get a > 15 ton ATAGS on par with the ATHOS. We aren't doing an apple to apple comparison at all.
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There was always a plan for 300 more Dhanush 52. If not that, then something else cost effective. This is meant for the interim. I strongly feel that this is for that only.

This doesn't cut into 1400+ orders of ATAGS.

Why tinker with ATAGS. By the time 300 guns are delivered, we will be at 4 trill figure. Then 20 crore unit for a gun won't affect. And trucks for pulling 20 tons capability are going to be bought.
 
“In most Indian defence platform, usually the electronic is all coming from outside, but in our case, we earlier had electronics coming from outside. But in this COVID period we were able to develop everything here. So now it's a 100% indigenous gun. And the advantage of this is, now, we can keep making it. This is, let's say over Mach I, Mach II will be even a greater performance. We are expecting this gun fires 48 kilometres.”
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businessworld.in

We Are Hopeful Of Not Only ATAGS To Be Inducted But Garuda And Light Weapon Also—Baba Kalyani, CMD Bharat Forge

Kalyani Strategic Systems, the defence arm of Bharat Forge is aiming to be the leading Indian OEM of the world in Defence & Aerospace. KSSL is developing an entire range of field Artillery for Army: Bharat 52/ 45, Garuda 105 and ATAGS with DRDO. Fact that in decades, Indian Army could only...
businessworld.in businessworld.in
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
There was always a plan for 300 more Dhanush 52. If not that, then something else cost effective. This is meant for the interim. I strongly feel that this is for that only.

This doesn't cut into 1400+ orders of ATAGS.

Why tinker with ATAGS. By the time 300 guns are delivered, we will be at 4 trill figure. Then 20 crore unit for a gun won't affect. And trucks for pulling 20 tons capability are going to be bought.
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It's not as simple as that. If you recall I had expressed doubts if this backdoor entry for ATHOS was at the behest of the IA or MoD or way up & ended with a statement - let's see whom Elbit collaborates with.

Well if it's Adani, you can expect them to take half the orders & they've everything going for them from a proven system to "100% indigenization "to better costs to faster deliveries to lower weight, etc which means after all that effort put in BF & Tata SPD get something like 400 pieces each & a big d*ck as thank you for services rendered.

OFB can't be touched because of the resultant public outcry by the opposition & their media cohorts so they'd get their share of 3-400 nos as & when they can leisurely deliver it. The sacrificial lamb here would be ATAGS.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
It's not as simple as that. If you recall I had expressed doubts if this backdoor entry for ATHOS was at the behest of the IA or MoD or way up & ended with a statement - let's see whom Elbit collaborates with.

Well if it's Adani, you can expect them to take half the orders & they've everything going for them from a proven system to "100% indigenization "to better costs to faster deliveries to lower weight, etc which means after all that effort put in BF & Tata SPD get something like 400 pieces each & a big d*ck as thank you for services rendered.

OFB can't be touched because of the resultant public outcry by the opposition & their media cohorts so they'd get their share of 3-400 nos as & when they can leisurely deliver it. The sacrificial lamb here would be ATAGS.
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I understand your concern, but ATHOS isn't coming. Remember the 10 crore or something similar figure was for 1st 400 units which were to be directly imported (no local assembly meant no GST).

The lowest cost 52 cal potential is Dhanush 52 actually if produced correctly. The 2nd cheapest is 155/52 towed unit (a variant of the ULH system by Kalyani). And then there's bharat 52.

There is no way to build a system in India while paying a share to elbit per unit at a cheaper cost than what idiots at OFB are doing now.

And why only Elbit? Mahindra and Mahindra has a tieup with BAE and they have actually invested in buying up foreign barrel manufacturing techniques and equipment. If say elbit can get to MoD with a few agents, think what M&M can do. And why forget the Trajan ? Tata's have worked with them.

If ATHOS is given an entry through 1 partner, so will be the French and Americans. They are actually the least powerful politically to wrestle a deal.
 
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