Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Rajput Lion]

He might be referring to HSTDV.

If he was referring about future, then definitely.

If Sharurya can be called hypersonic then Agni can also be.

Most ballistic missiles reach Mach 20+ in their terminal phase. Shaurya remains below that ballistic threshold and retains Mach 7+ speeds inside our atmosphere. That's a big difference, IMO

Pralay is not a Shaurya with booster.

Just the opposite. Pralay "is" Shuarya/K-15 "without" booster. Despite our previous debates, you continue to refuse all the facts given by me regarding this.

Ok, so since I'm RO2 here, hence no one believes my uber "optimistic" or nationalistic theories. Fine. Let me give some more evidence about Pralay being Shaurya minus booster:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1607815787687079937

^^ Do you believe him??

No worries, I've got more:

Both the Pralay and the SMART have a common ancestor—India’s first submarine launched ballistic missile, the K-15, which equips the Arihant class SSBNs. The K-15 (now renamed the B-05) is a 10-metre long two-stage solid-fuelled manoeuvering ballistic missile with a range of 750 km.

Link: The ‘K’ factor in the recent missile tests

All BMs are hypersonic in terminal phase. Pralay is a manoeuvrable quasi BM. Possibly land launched version of K-15 or a derivative of it .

"In terminal phase". Shaurya/K-15 can remain Mach 7+ throughout their within atmospheric flight and maneuver. That's the difference.

 

[marich01]

Just the opposite. Pralay "is" Shuarya/K-15 "without" booster. Despite our previous debates, you continue to refuse all the facts given by me regarding this.

I do not mind that derived from part, it happens often & very reasonable. But I am not sure on the claim that a projectile derived from another projectile can retain all its previous flight characteristics including flight speed even though propulsion system can be similar. AKA, Pralay with main characteristic of Shaurya but without certain parts like the booster obviously suggest that it is intended for a role that does not require it to be send up so the next stage can kick in and sustain the flight. At higher altitude it(shaurya) will be of top speed at mach 7 range, this also is in no doubt. But that speed characteristic is not needed for the missions Pralay is intended for. So we cut down on booster & rocket motor propulsion a bit & give it a ballistic/quasi ballistic trajectory with good accuracy instead, since a tactical missile would be of useful that way?

Frankly, a 150-500km strike intended missile does not need that Shaurya like long distance high speed propulsion imo, way overkill for the cost of weapon system vs target profile. At 700-1900km reach of Shaurya, its perfect to do a time bound mission.

 

[Arpuism]

I do not mind that derived from part, it happens often & very reasonable. But I am not sure on the claim that a projectile derived from another projectile can retain all its previous flight characteristics including flight speed even though propulsion system can be similar. AKA, Pralay with main characteristic of Shaurya but without certain parts like the booster obviously suggest that it is intended for a role that does not require it to be send up so the next stage can kick in and sustain the flight. At higher altitude it(shaurya) will be of top speed at mach 7 range, this also is in no doubt. But that speed characteristic is not needed for the missions Pralay is intended for. So we cut down on booster & rocket motor propulsion a bit & give it a ballistic/quasi ballistic trajectory with good accuracy instead, since a tactical missile would be of useful that way?

Frankly, a 150-500km strike intended missile does not need that Shaurya like long distance high speed propulsion imo, way overkill for the cost of weapon system vs target profile. At 700-1900km reach of Shaurya, its perfect to do a time bound mission.

Even rudram 2 with lower range is hypersonic. In current scenario of dense AD, hypersonic speed is not an overkill.

 

[Ashwin]

Most ballistic missiles reach Mach 20+ in their terminal phase. Shaurya remains below that ballistic threshold and retains Mach 7+ speeds inside our atmosphere. That's a big difference, IMO

Nope, that's just terminal phase, Very short time.

There were so many missiles that do this in cold war times. Nothing special.

Here is north korean:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1375211922472198144

Just the opposite. Pralay "is" Shuarya/K-15 "without" booster. Despite our previous debates, you continue to refuse all the facts given by me regarding this.

Ok, so since I'm RO2 here, hence no one believes my uber "optimistic" or nationalistic theories. Fine. Let me give some more evidence about Pralay being Shaurya minus booster:

Indrani is saying it's developed from K-15 not that's it's pralay is without booster. Ofcourse it is, it's a missile with similar characteristics. Thus taking stuff from already proven missile is the way to go.

All air to air missiles will be derived from Astra. But you cannot say SFDR is Astra with new propulsion. Its a new missile that is designed for different requirements.

 

[marich01]

Even rudram 2 with lower range is hypersonic. In current scenario of dense AD, hypersonic speed is not an overkill.

R2 is air launched at high altitude & all we got is peak speed in a poster. A ground launch canisterised missile would be different to its predecessor if it sheds an important part like the first stage booster. Even with range factor, I can not see Pralay keeping Shaurya profile.

 

[_Anonymous_]

R2 is air launched at high altitude & all we got is peak speed in a poster.

Is R2 hypersonic ? That's quite a revelation. Why do we have Brahmos then since mission profile matches ?

A ground launch canisterised missile would be different to its predecessor if it sheds an important part like the first stage booster. Even with range factor, I can not see Pralay keeping Shaurya profile.

You guys are simply over analysing a simple issue. Pralay in depressed trajectory is still bound to have the characteristics of a BM , hence it's flight pattern which is a function of it's mission profile has been described as quasi ballistic which by it's very definition will be hypersonic either throughout it's flight or in it's mid to terminal phase .

The only unique feature is it's manoeuvrability like ATACMS. Nobody seems to be discussing that .

 

[marich01]

Is R2 hypersonic ? That's quite a revelation. Why do we have Brahmos then since mission profile matches ?

All of it because they showed peak speed being 5.5M which is probably like for small duration, and terminal speed was not revealed, just shown as supersonic. R2 got both arm & ground attack role with different seekers so nature of the enemy structure to destroy & reach of it will be via jets only, angle of attack will be different for each role. Brahmos is way more heavy so use will probably depend on target profile and can be ground launched as well.

You guys are simply over analysing a simple issue. Pralay in depressed trajectory is still bound to have the characteristics of a BM , hence it's flight pattern which is a function of it's mission profile has been described as quasi ballistic which by it's very definition will be hypersonic either throughout it's flight or in it's mid to terminal phase .

The only unique feature is it's manoeuvrability like ATACMS. Nobody seems to be discussing that .

Yeah that is because I have not seen its flight path shown clearly like R2, but I am guessing they will use good maneuvering trajectory & keep BM characteristics.
Debate started due to no clear info on whether its propulsion is hypersonic itself like Shaurya, because if it is it will almost certainly need the large booster to go up first. Since it does not have that, it can still keep Shaurya like maneuver ability flight path at lesser speed to evade AD but will need to do 80 deg angle of attack/top attack to be fully effective like gravity induced BM.
A true quasi ballistic trajectory I think allows for both top attack, as well as 40-45deg attack, in the latter case terminal speed will be slightly lower. You need maneuver ability when your speed is not too much subsonic supersonic below 1.8-2.5 mach, if you got hypersonic speed you are reaching your target way before enemy ad can react.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Nope, that's just terminal phase, Very short time.

There were so many missiles that do this in cold war times. Nothing special.

Here is north korean:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1375211922472198144

Indrani is saying it's developed from K-15 not that's it's pralay is without booster. Ofcourse it is, it's a missile with similar characteristics. Thus taking stuff from already proven missile is the way to go.

All air to air missiles will be derived from Astra. But you cannot say SFDR is Astra with new propulsion. Its a new missile that is designed for different requirements.

Yes, both are similar not same. Even the elimination of booster first stage would affect speed/altitude/range etc.

However the width of K-15/Shaurya and Pralay is the same at 0.74m. So they are very very similar if not the same. Indranil and India Today article both explicitly alluded this fact too.

 

[marich01]

Oh they use the same dia rocket motor that is why. DRDO Veda also uses the 2 meter dia motor (Daisy II ?) like the Agni but likely different application.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Oh they use the same dia rocket motor that is why. DRDO Veda also uses the 2 meter dia motor (Daisy II ?) like the Agni but likely different application.

Read the tweet by Indranil. He explicitly said that Pralay is developed from Shaurya by removing the first stage(for lesser range/lower cost etc.). This tweet clears it all:




(NOTE: I disagree with him here as both Pralay and Shaurya are two stage missiles. I think difference is only the booster and its omission in Pralay like I previously said).


Rest all are independent missiles which serve different purposes. But to defeat Chinese PLA formations we need Pralay and to destroy their military and other non-military critical infra we need Shaurya(with conventional warhead). Both are absolutely essential in huge numbers to defeat the Chinese.

 

[marich01]

Read the tweet by Indranil. He explicitly said that Pralay is developed from Shaurya by removing the first stage(for lesser range/lower cost etc.). This tweet clears it all:

View attachment 27075



Rest all are independent missiles which serve different purposes. But to defeat Chinese PLA formations we need Pralay and to destroy their military and other non-military critical infra we need Shaurya(with conventional warhead). Both are absolutely essential in huge numbers to defeat the Chinese.

I do not doubt that part, this is how same airframe can serve multi purpose development & spring into variants. I am just not sure its flight characteristics remains the same & unaffected. Not just range/speed that would be affected. Same terminal guidance can be used, but mission profile would dictate a slower paced tactical missile is created to serve quick deployment. Enemy formations/troop housing can be time critical targets where Pralay can do great job.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I do not doubt that part, this is how same airframe can serve multi purpose development & spring into variants. I am just not sure its flight characteristics remains the same & unaffected. Not just range/speed that would be affected. Same terminal guidance can be used, but mission profile would dictate a slower paced tactical missile is created to serve quick deployment. Enemy formations/troop housing can be time critical targets where Pralay can do great job.

Pralay replaced solid fuel Prithvi -3 because IA was not happy with its slow burn rate. Pralay has high energy solid propellant which makes it much faster than conventional solid fuel missiles.

The best explanation of Pralay was done way back in 2018 by our respected Prasun Da. Let me quote him to explain what is Pralay and why it's important for us plus how IA intends to use it:

Although the DRDO had in the previous decade developed a solid-fuelled Prithvi-3 Precision-guided SS-BSM with a CEP of 30 metres at its maximum range of 600km (through the adoption of RLG-INS units imported from the TAMAM Division of Israel Aerospace Industries), the IA was dissatisfied with its solid-propellant’s low burn rate of 10 millimetres per second and instead had specified a solid-propellant with a burn rate of minimum 70 millimetres per second. This became available only in 2015 from the DRDO’s Nashik-based Advanced Centre for Energetic Materials (ACEM), following which it was decided to develop the Pralay precision-guided SS-BSM as a derivative of the cannister-encased, land-mobile Shaurya SS-BSM, which can carry a 1-tonne nuclear warhead over a distance of 750km, weighs 6 tonnes, has a diameter of 0.74 metres and is 10 metres long.

The Shaurya’s solid-fuel, two-stage solid-fuelled rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40km (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its on-board fuel. The Shaurya has already demonstrated a CEP of 30 metres out to a range of 750km.

The Pralay on the other hand has been designed to have a maximum strike range of 500km and weighs 5 tonnes. With a 1,000kg all-conventional payload (five types of warheads are available), it can travel a distance of 350km and if the payload is halved, then the Pralay will be able to go as far as 500km. In both cases, the CEP attained will be 30 metres. The time taken from missile-launch till warhead detonation over-target will be considerably lesser than that attained by either the Prithvi-3 or Shaurya, primarily due to the usage of higher energetic solid-propellants with high burn-rate.

But it needs to be noted that the Pralay will NOT be used by the IA to hit targets located 500km or 350km inside hostile territory. Rather, the Pralay’s MALs will be located in the IA’s rear-areas—typically located 150km inside friendly territory—and will be used over a frontage of up to 70km in depth and 120km wide inside enemy territory, with the width and depth of the frontage being determined by the integral ISTR capabilities of the IA Strike Corps’ Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS) network, comprising both land-based optronic sensors and MALE-UAV assets using land-mobile SATCOM-based VSATs for battlespace network connectivity.

Link: From Prithvi To Pralay

Conclusion: Pralay= Game-Changer.

 

[marich01]

Whole threads in timeline all are good. I hope people would no longer be sad about no atgm any more

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638942405415309312

 

[_Anonymous_]

But to defeat Chinese PLA formations we need Pralay and to destroy their military and other non-military critical infra we need Shaurya(with conventional warhead). Both are absolutely essential in huge numbers to defeat the Chinese.

Shaurya is with SFC . We desperately need a 750 kms , 1000 kms , 1500 kms 2000 kms & 2500 kms conventional BM . Why aren't we going in for it inspite of having it in our inventory is beyond me.

While the 2000 & 2500 kms would possibly suffice in a few hundreds ( say 250 each ) the others are required in numbers of at least 1000 -1500 per item at the very minimum .

The 2000 & 2500 kms conventional BM would be purely for deterrence to signal to China that if they target the mainland we have the wherewithal to retaliate , whereas the others would definitely have a huge part to play in our abilities to waging war .

 

[marich01]

Shaurya is with SFC . We desperately need a 750 kms , 1000 kms , 1500 kms 2000 kms & 2500 kms conventional BM . Why aren't we going in for it inspite of having it in our inventory is beyond me.

It could be that they have specific nuke delivery role penciled in for it? I mean in the event of such a situation, you will need something that the enemy will have no or little idea about to engage and shoot it down aka you will be firing something with 100% probability of successful strike. We do not have any imported weapon system that can do this role yet, unless we buy nuke delivery capable french air launched missile with Rafale.

 

[Bali78]

Shaurya is with SFC . We desperately need a 750 kms , 1000 kms , 1500 kms 2000 kms & 2500 kms conventional BM . Why aren't we going in for it inspite of having it in our inventory is beyond me.

While the 2000 & 2500 kms would possibly suffice in a few hundreds ( say 250 each ) the others are required in numbers of at least 1000 -1500 per item at the very minimum .

The 2000 & 2500 kms conventional BM would be purely for deterrence to signal to China that if they target the mainland we have the wherewithal to retaliate , whereas the others would definitely have a huge part to play in our abilities to waging war .

I’m not sure about the utilities of 750-2500 km BMs. Are there any valuable targets in that range?

 

[_Anonymous_]

I’m not sure about the utilities of 750-2500 km BMs. Are there any valuable targets in that range?

Check out for how far Chengdu is for a start from say Assam or AP or even Lanzhou or say Kashgar & Urumqi are from Leh . Why these places in China? Coz they're vital air bases of the WTC of Chinese Theatre Commands.

The reason being all our front line or even main bases are within 4-500 kms of the LAC in many cases. Whereas the same is located in the hinterland as far as China is concerned & they'd definitely be targeting our bases in a war.

We need missiles upto 1500 kms in numbers for actual use. Beyond that upto 2500 kms would be needed to signal deterrence . But I fear we're going to do nothing of the sort. They're already operating with a defensive mindset convinced that building up infrastructure on the LAC & bringing in forces en masse would be deterrence enough. They've not or refuse to consider what happens if the Chinese aren't deterred.

 

[marich01]

Those of you followed the previous programs, what is RTRS rocket motors & where is it used? it does mention P-AD in the designation.

 

[marich01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639295722259628032

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639297724871737346

 

[Rajput Lion]

Those of you followed the previous programs, what is RTRS rocket motors & where is it used? it does mention P-AD in the designation.

View attachment 27102

Something like this:



To study interception of high velocity( read supersonic) aerial targets on ground via a high speed rail track. Looks like we've this facility too. Nice