Indian Political Discussion

[Saaho]

Your trying to downplay the power of sentiments driving this uproar will not gel.

I am not. Sentiments are those of Muslims who are feeling hurt that they could not do a single damn thing about Kashmir or Ayodhya or Triple Talaq. Even those sentiments are more "Twitter wala sentiment". Rest are just riding with them, for social media ofcourse.

Trust me I know.

Don't ask how or from whom. My links now extend to the NCP as well. Though I remain to the day I die a Sainik.

There is no coming back of the BJP in its current avatar into any grassroot level political alliance in Maharashtra.

They were always seen as bamman party.

Now they are seen as north Indian and even worse, Gujrati.

There's no coming back from there sir. Sorry.

Cheers, Doc

Doc, all I will say is this : Power and Politics make strange bed-fellows. Rest, you are my senior and perhaps wiser than me.

 

[vsdoc]

I openly criticize Modi Government on poor economics and lack of discipline in bottom rung political cadre. But this entire minority under threat is something I am still trying to understand? You keep alluding to this fear, What exactly is the fear? Please elucidate.

Let's keep business houses out of this, their loyalties are to money and no one else. Remember Anil Ambani and Amar Singh? Dhirubhai and Rajiv? let's not forget who Radia was and how everyone from Bal Thackeray to Ananth Kumar to Ratan Tata has all run through the gambit.

As far as one community keeping quiet, Most of India remains quiet all the time.

take an example of the student protest right now, do you not see a particular type of campus involvement and the agenda behind it? Take an example of Pune, FTII students came out to protest, only FTII. not bharti, not COEP, not MIT, not Cummins, not DY Patil, not PICT, not VIT, not AIsSMS, not VIT. Just FTII. ever wondered why?

O beesee, you studied here? When?

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

Oh well, anyone who wants to seriously comment on current situation, should stop comparison with hitler or Nazi Germany. BJP is no Nazi party and India is no Germany. Problem with this line of thought is that it short-circuits serious thought and brings forth a comic relief that sabotages argument.

So millions who think the same, both Indians living in India, and increasingly "woke" expats, not to mention most of the western world watching on horrified as their favourite brown nation model plummets to anarchy and mediocrity, are all comedians.

Only serious people are the bhagwadharis breeding peacocks from lacrimal secretions and microbrewing gaumutra beers and shampoos.

Please note this is not the first Nobel laureate saying this. Nor the first INDIAN Nobel laureate either.

But of course they are both comedians.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

So millions who think the same, both Indians living in India, and increasingly "woke" expats, not to mention most of the western world watching on horrified as their favourite brown nation model plummets to anarchy and mediocrity, are all comedians.

Only serious people are the bhagwadharis breeding peacocks from lacrimal secretions and microbrewing gaumutra beers and shampoos.

Please note this is not the first Nobel laureate saying this. Nor the first INDIAN Nobel laureate either.

But of course they are both comedians.

Cheers, Doc

Trouble with Noble Laureates are that they think that they are expert at everything. Especially the thing that they know nothing about. The guy may know a lot about economics-schiconomics but he knows nothing about Nazi or Hitler or BJP for that matter. His very comparison tells you that. The very defining charecterstic of Hitler was absolute refusal to be removed out of power as seen in his early speech in 34

"At the risk of appearing to talk nonsense I tell you that the National Socialist movement will go on for 1,000 years! ... Don't forget how people laughed at me 15 years ago when I declared that one day I would govern Germany. They laugh now, just as foolishly, when I declare that I shall remain in power!"

BJP and Modi have not entered into power first time. They have done it in the past and have relinquished power when they lost the elections. The very Maharashtra election in which they went out of power even while being the largest party is testament to this phenomenon. Had they been real Nazi, you would not even have the ability to have the map on your profile that you are having right now. Voting them out of power would not been ever possible.

Oh, BTW, as far as people go, there are more people who disagree with the fact that Modi is Hitler or BJP is Nazi party. Sooner this stupid comparison dies the better. It makes any meaningful discussion very very hard.

So, yes, this comparison is childish to say the least. Nobel or Bell(Ghanta).

 

[Milspec]

So millions who think the same, both Indians living in India, and increasingly "woke" expats, not to mention most of the western world watching on horrified as their favourite brown nation model plummets to anarchy and mediocrity, are all comedians.

Only serious people are the bhagwadharis breeding peacocks from lacrimal secretions and microbrewing gaumutra beers and shampoos.

Please note this is not the first Nobel laureate saying this. Nor the first INDIAN Nobel laureate either.

But of course they are both comedians.

Cheers, Doc

millions?

 

[vsdoc]

Trouble with Noble Laureates are that they think that they are expert at everything. Especially the thing that they know nothing about. The guy may know a lot about economics-schiconomics but he knows nothing about Nazi or Hitler or BJP for that matter. His very comparison tells you that. The very defining charecterstic of Hitler was absolute refusal to be removed out of power as seen in his early speech in 34



BJP and Modi have not entered into power first time. They have done it in the past and have relinquished power when they lost the elections. The very Maharashtra election in which they went out of power even while being the largest party is testament to this phenomenon.

Oh, BTW, as far as people go, there are more people who disagree with the fact that Modi is Hitler or BJP is Nazi party. Sooner this stupid comparison dies the better. It makes any meaningful discussion very very hard.

So, yes, this comparison is childish to say the least. Noble no No-Bell.

They are continually testing the waters.

Pushing further each time.

Then backing up just a bit if the frog (India junta) squeals too loud.

Then finding another way to push.

Then pushing some more.

No one is a fool. How come these comparisons to the Nazis and Hitler never came up in Vajpayee's time?

Now even BJP Wallas are worried.

The same traits they abused the Congress for, are being seen in the BJP top leadership.

Complete centralisation of power.

Senior leaders seen as threats to power equation marginalised.

Senior leaders reduced to sound bytes on the news and TV debates.

Every institution infiltrated with their inner men.

State machinery used against the state and its people to further agenda of political consolidation.

Economic, legal and media victimisation.

Yes men culture. Absolute intolerance to any challenge to supreme leader/s.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

millions?

I have quit talking about facts to Doc. Doc's arguments are fact free pure arguments.

Shabdon pe mat jayiye, Bhavano ko samajhiye.

 

[vsdoc]

millions?

Millions.

Indian Hindus alone number over a billion.

Barely 30 odd percent of all Indians voted for Modi at his peak.

A peak he is nowhere close to in 2020.

Is it difficult to do the simple math?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

They are continually testing the waters.

Pushing further each time.

Then backing up just a bit if the frog (India junta) squeals too loud.

Then finding another way to push.

Then pushing some more.

No one is a fool. How come these comparisons to the Nazis and Hitler never came up in Vajpayee's time?

Now even BJP Wallas are worried.

The same traits they abused the Congress for, are being seen in the BJP top leadership.

Complete centralisation of power.

Senior leaders seen as threats to power equation marginalised.

Senior leaders reduced to sound bytes on the news and TV debates.

Every institution infiltrated with their inner men.

State machinery used against the state and its people to further agenda of political consolidation.

Economic, legal and media victimisation.

Yes men culture. Absolute intolerance to any challenge to supreme leader/s.

Cheers, Doc

You are telling me that this guy is Nazi Hitler incarnate but he needs to do his power capture in stepwise manner so every one will be able to criticize him. He is a dictator who wants to ensure that his opponents also get fair chance. You know what hitler did once he had the level of support that Modi enjoyed in Feb-May 2019? He ensure ALL his political opponents are in prison. The CPIs, CPMs, Congress etc would not have been forming Mahagathbandhans. Rise of dictators like Hitler are marked by capturing power and not validating it with people.

 

[vsdoc]

You are telling me that this guy is Nazi Hitler incarnate but he needs to do his power capture in stepwise manner so every one will be able to criticize him. He is a dictator who wants to ensure that his opponents also get fair chance. You know what hitler did once he had the level of support that Modi enjoyed in Feb-May 2019? He ensure ALL his political opponents are in prison. The CPIs, CPMs, Congress etc would not have been forming Mahagathbandhans. Rise of dictators like Hitler are marked by capturing power and not validating it with people.

I don't think that Modi is Hitler. He is but one man. A charismatic totem (though the sheen has dulled, sounding shrill and vacuous).

I do think the parivar and it's ideology are pure Nazi.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

No one is a fool. How come these comparisons to the Nazis and Hitler never came up in Vajpayee's time?

All my cohort used to call the dean Hitler. It meant nothing. No wonder this comparison feels stupidly childish.

 

[Gautam]

The funniest thing about this conversation is the randomly popping numbers and the absolute assertions of views as universal truths. Push on any of the "truths" hard enough they all seem to fizzle away. I believe a bagpipe or a tuba would serve as the perfect theme song for this conversation.

 

[vsdoc]

All my cohort used to call the dean Hitler. It meant nothing. No wonder this comparison feels stupidly childish.

Bro, I don't mean to weaponise your place of residence but you do not suffer two disadvantages

1) You do not come across as a non Hindu (I don't like the word minority )

2) You do not live in India

Both of these allow you to see the "funny" side of things which are totally lost on me.

For me this is my country and people. It's a daily life affair. It's not news across a vast ocean. It impacts me. I see it. Hear it. Feel it. Even sometimes smell it.

It's all around.

I live on the streets of India. Urban India sure. But not in an isolated conclave.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

I don't think that Modi is Hitler.

Good that we can agree on one point. Modi is no Hitler.

I do think the parivar and it's ideology are pure Nazi.

'Parivar' is too nebulous to be Nazi. There are too many factions of this Parivar. Even Shiv Sena (lol SS) is considered to be an extended part of Parivar.

Nazi had a very tightly knit SINGLE ideology and loyalty to single persona. Parivar has many many many poles. Your Uddavji is one of them too.

 

[vsdoc]

Good that we can agree one one point. Modi is no Hitler.


'Parivar' is too nebulous to be Nazi. There are too many factions of this Parivar. Even Shiv Sena (lol SS) is considered to be an extended part of Parivar.

Nazi had a very tightly knit SINGLE ideology and loyalty to single persona. Parivar has many many many poles. Your Uddavji is one of them too.

Not true.

The sangh is very clear and centralised in it's ideology and dogma and world view.

Very very very non Hindu.

Which is why I and other Sainiks have been berating them for over 5 years now.

And the inevitable split has happened, which most here and on other forums used to laugh and poke me about when I would calmly predict it in the preceding years.

Well it's happened.

And the template is set for the rest of India.

A construct that has always been about kingdoms.

Unlike Persia ...

Or China.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saaho]

1) You do not come across as a non Hindu (I don't like the word minority )

Au contraire, I have to spend a sizable time in "hostile territory" -- the present USA and southern states. That said I do not consider Trump Hitler or Republicans Nazi. I have seen the hard side of government very recently at ironically named "Peace Arch".

2) You do not live in India

I have lived enough in India. Infact till 2017, I was very much here.

The sangh is very clear and centralised in it's ideology and dogma and world view.

I humbly disagree. Sangh's basic architecture is based on Shakha. And Shakhas have too much freedom for itself. Sangh is very much a distrubuted entity, else it would have not survived till now. Or grown for that matter.

BTW, Parivar is bigger than Sangh.

 

[vsdoc]

Single uniform across India.

Very similar till recently to Hitler's brown shirts.

Cadre structured along the lines of the infamous Hitler Youth.

The nazi salute. Which is a direct copy of an European fascist salute.

The fountainheads and their tomes are out there for anyone to read. It's not even a stretch to see where they got their ideological roots. Much as the Sangh has stayed quiet on the really nasty bits. Trying to distance themselves from it.

Cheers, Doc

 

[_Anonymous_]

Shubhendu (@BBTheorist) Tweeted:
I feel really bad for the Srivastava family from Bihar.
'पूत सपूत तो क्या धन संचय,
पूत कपूत तो क्या धन संचय'

@Ranojay4 once wrote about the sociology behind being a rebel and why the small town middle class students (who come to metros to study) develop such tendencies. Shubhendu on Twitter (

https://twitter.com/x/status/1214438733631520769

)

I think this is what being woke means. You come from a one horse town to a metropolis to study & are independent . You suddenly have the freedom to explore what would've been taboo in your hometown. You land up with a group of anarchists who don't have any constructive solutions to offer but are ready to rebel with or without a cause. Since you're rootless after having shrugged off small town morality & attached yourself to a cause you know little about you need to prove yourself.You confuse hedonism for freedom, rebelliousness without a cause to protests against patriarchy, responsibilty as blind obedience & since you're self identified as a rebel what you're rebelling against automatically becomes authoritarian or fascist.

 

[Saaho]

The funniest thing about this conversation is the randomly popping numbers and the absolute assertions of views as universal truths. Push on any of the "truths" hard enough they all seem to fizzle away. I believe a bagpipe or a tuba would serve as the perfect theme song for this conversation.

I tried to use facts and numbers but I guess the centre piece of this discussion and present protests is about sentiments. Sentiments are amiable to reason but are never bounded by facts.

 

[vsdoc]

I tried to use facts and numbers but I guess the centre piece of this discussion and present protests is about sentiments. Sentiments are amiable to reason but are never bounded by facts.

Everything in life is about emotions and perceptions.

Facts did not bring the BJP to power.

Emotions did. Perceptions neatly engineered did.

The same will sweep them out.

Cheers, Doc