While I consider those who abandon their culture, principles and values in the face of threat, as cowards and opportunists. To each his own.
Indian Political Discussion
- Thread starter Parul
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While I consider those who abandon their culture, principles and values in the face of threat, as cowards and opportunists. To each his own.
What personal attack ? He/She called himself/herself a "low" caste and abused Hinduism.
I am not seeking your character certificate. Support issues on merit, not on your foolish understand of human nature and personal relationship.
I have replied to her above.
I can do without your opinion on whats foolish or otherwise. Its always on truth.
Here is a basic fact: Any 'new' system is taken up first by those who are disenfranchised from the old one. Certain portions of society were indeed marginalized who decided to abandon the present established system in medieval India.
BTW, It wasn't just simple logistical ability but a systematic setup by those in political power to retain their place. If you refer to previous discussions in this forum itself, one of the core tenant of this caste system is immutability of a person's birth-caste: which is still present BTW. For you to be 'promoted', you need to be born again. Sure as hell some folks saw through this bullshit and decided to have an out. Islam provided it back then. BTW, these things happen to this day. Especially in places like Kerala. IIRC there were mass conversions by Christian missionaries back in 90s or may be 2000s. Most of those were Dalits. And it happens in the other way round as well, but thats a tangent for another discussion.
And? Do you think my ground is 'Islam' if I am challenging BS that I see being spread by Hindu 'nationalists'? Just because my name sounds Muslim, you think I believe that Islam is inherently better than Hinduism -- or 'perfect'? Lemme say it explicitly, my 'high ground' does not comes from my 'faith'. Heck, besides spirituality and family-ties nothing for me comes from my 'faith'. I believe the only 'high ground' comes from reality and facts.
The fact is a guy who is claiming Hindus to be a minority because in a single year births of Muslims were more than Hindus is a BS-vendor and a demagogue. It is not grounded in reality and hence I am very, very much on a 'high ground' to challenge him.
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I come from a family of farmers and understand the economics of farming pretty well. The suicide of farmers is a much more complicated issue, than it appears in media.I have soft corner for Farmer's as they've been exploited by System. I want their conditions to improve, so that they don't needs Loans. I am against Government Waiving off Loans but can't see them committing Sucidies.
CPIM been leading charge and promoting it on Social Media. This March might be Politically Motivated:
A simple question is how come most farmer suicide cases are reported from rich states like Andhra, Maharastra and Punjab where traditionally the farmers are well off compared to other parts of India. If it's only a case of economic distress, then how come relatively fewer cases are reported from poor states like Odisha, Jharkhand and Chatisgarh?? Logically, poor farmers should commit suicide first, isn't it? But in reality it's the other way round.
Btw, if crop failure is a compelling reason for suicide, then most people from my ancestral village would have grown up as orphans. Till 1970s, every year the flood damaged the monsoon season rice crop and then people grew raggi to compensate for rice. Inspite of crop failures being a routine affair, I never heard of anybody committing suicide because of that.
As I mentioned earlier, the actual reason is a lot more complicated. If you analyze the loan amounts, you will find that many loans can not be paid back even with bumper crops for multiple years!! That means the loans were never meant for farming to begin with. But hey who will ask these difficult questions?? Farmers have the highest percentage of votes and no political party will dare to even remotely touch the issue. Few years back, a collector in Telangana talked to media explaining the real reason behind the suicides. He got his transfer orders within no time!!
As usual Media is not bothered about truth and anyway they get their TRPs from the juicy stories!! Remember " Pipli live" ?
Btw, did it ever occur to you that farmers are human beings and can commit suicide for other personal reasons as well? Then why every case is linked to loans and crop failures??
True. With power, People always tend to corrupt. And to give a leg up to their future descendants over and above others is fact, that you and I see to this day. Its got a name "caste system" around here. Its called inherited business and dynastic politics in other places. This has by and large, in most of India been changed without any resisting decrees of blasphemy. The redeeming part is, there is no "absolute" rule book. As something organic and evolving with no impediments, it has every chance at bettering itself. To make it clear, I believe the untouchables were the only ones done a large injustice-basic dignity was denied. And it is something to be worked and set right by all the others.
My position is, considering the realities of fertility around India,from a statistical standpoint, its very likely that the kids are indeed a minority. A high probability. Or will be pretty soon. Maybe he isnt supplying enough data. But you are lying to yourself if you convince yourself that it isnt likely sooner than later.
Now the source of this angst is our warped secularism. Revenue from temples go to the state not the centre. An important point.
but somehow the state of J and K gets the revenue from a small minority of temples but the majority population does nada. Again the case of Punjab with 38.5% hindus manages to mop up revenues from temples but the gurudwaras of the majority are free to manage themselves.
When the revenue goes to the state, why is the majority still getting benefits, especially, in a federation? The same argument could be extended to the educational institutions.
Do the Math. Data provided by the Economics & Statistics Dept. Kerala
More muslim kids are born, more Hindus die everyday.
More muslim kids are born, more Hindus die everyday.
WRONG.
Any new system is taken up by someone who stands to GAIN more from the new system.
SO such people become muslims under islamic rule and become christian under british rule.
The whole lot Hindus who remains Hindus are the real people who got disenfranchised by both the islamic rule and the xtian rule.
"Caste system" was something the british invented and the constitution enshrined. Don't blame the Hindus for it.
The vaste majority of christian conversions in kerala happened under the British rule.
It is your ground in islam that gives you your world view. Its your back ground as an islamist that makes your parrot the "caste system" and "dalit empowerment" to justify islamic conversion. Not a world on Jazia.
I am the only person here providing statistics, the while lot of "caste" BS was provided by you. LOL at your counter claim and lolwa at your 'high ground'.
Here is another fact. I do not know if it applies to Kerala in particular or not because age based data is not available for Kerala to me atleast.
Younger populations grow faster. Muslim all over India are relatively younger --at a median level. AFAIK. Infact growth rate among Muslims have declined much faster all over India. I believe similar will be the case with Kerala.
Lastly these are two very distinct positions:
1. Muslims are growing faster in Kerala at a pace which is unsustainable.
2. Hindus are a minority in Kerala and it is against their own well being.
One is real and another is not. One needs us to consider the cause and effects. Other is at best a possibility. The issue with BS-vending like which happened in this thread is it diverts attention from the real issue. 1 is a real issue, IMHO. 2 is a diversion and BS.
Finally, 50 years is a time too far. 50 years back, India was a centrally planned economy with license raj. What disrruptive changes will fundamentally affect socio-political dynamics in fifty years hence are I believe unknowable unknowns.
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Ha ha!
Marginal utility. Thats all I will say. Marginal utility for upliftment is biggest for the most downtrodden.
The only fact we have from your 'statistics' is that in year 2016 Muslims produced marginally more babies than Hindus in Kerala. Thats all!
Did that make Hindus minority? Nope.
Will it make Hindus a minority in Kerala? If current growth rates remains sustained for 50 years, may be. If other variables change, may be not.
Will the babies born among Hindu families today be a religious minority? Nope, not atleast till 50 years.
So yes, you are BSing.
Continuing on why it is important that the current minority-majority separation is revisited and his point is important.
Consider this. Muslims are 13%- Burning their holy book is illegal and punishable by our own special masked blasphemy law aka hurting religious sentiments. Christians are 2% - burning their book and cross is illegal. The sentiments are, both, admirable to me personally. And this is all done interpreted automatically as such by the courts of this country. No necessity of special laws required. Nothing. The Malerkotla incident is interesting. Muslims are 1.9% in the state, but still the hurting religious sentiments law applies. No voting required. Straight forward interpretation in the courts.
‘Muslim-hater’ among 3 held for Quran sacrilege at Malerkotla
But magically, when its for the hindus, cows are banned in states where majority are against it. And killing allowed where the offended hindus are in a minority. The religious sentiments being hurt now doesnt apply. Special laws need to be passed. Magically, Padmavati is a kosher subject because now the offended % numbers are now counted. But you can bet the courts would apply hurting religious sentiments if Aisha or Mary come in the firing line. The most vexing part is , other hindus dont get the inherent bias in the application of these blasphemy laws, as long as it doesnt affect them. They cheer on being able to eat beef, etc not realizing that their cherished beliefs will also, automatically, be thrown under the bus in this system, when their time comes. In effect, all of Hinduism is second class.
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You have to realize that younger population than others basically means that they are multiplying more than others. More babies drive the average down. It is a function of the fertility rate. As long as the fertility rate is high, the average of the population will grow younger.
My argument is not so much a question of "Islam is dangerous and so must be controlled". It is more about revisiting the principle of majority and minority benefits in the constitution. As of now , its a farce, which is why I am showing you examples, when we are on the question of population %.
You are stuck on arguing that Hindus are not a minority, which invariably you are right as of now, as there are a lot of the older generation still. But the larger point is his demand for minority benefits and how they apply. Say, if they really are minority ,would they be given benefits in the current India? when it is already not given in JK, Punjab, Nagaland etc? Do you think our process is matured for that? But you are tunnel visioning on the technicality , that for now Kerala doesnt apply. And calling the point BS. Its like saying the hare and tortoise cannot talk to each other and the story of the race is BS. The moral of the story applies. Same way, The moral of his demand for minority-majority still applies.
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To be honest, I am against any kind of 'religious' laws. Mostly, because it allows open-ended interpretation on what I can and cannot do freely in the country. A kind of legislation by proxy.
That said, I believe if one burns say Ramayan or Gita the same law can be invoked.
This is interesting. I believe by 'cows are banned' you mean 'cow slaughter being banned'. Now I am not a lawyer, and I may be incorrect, but please bear with me. When a person does something and it is percieved if a law is being violated, an important point which comes forth is 'intent'. When cow is slaughtered, what was the intent. IMHO it was to eat meat. You can kill a cow and eat its mean. When you burn Quran or Bible or Gita, what is the intent? I believe the only possible one is to hurt religious sentiments of others. This is the reason why you cann't compare 'cow slaughter' and 'burning quran'. Their intents are different. Sure as hell, if someone burns a Quran to ward off hypothermia in some remote location in Tibet, he will not be charged under the law.
I will say this: In Islam, consumption of alcohol is proscribed but if you are consuming alcohol, will you consider it to be 'hurting religious sentiments' of Muslims? I will not. Your intent was not that.
As far as 'Padmavati' is concerned, remember the latest brouhaha on the Kerala movie song? I am fairly sure, if Owaisi and his kind push it in court, they will be defeated.
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LOL.... 70% of all officials in mughal court and administration were muslims.
ALL jobs in british govt . including railways were reserved for whites, then angle Indians and then christians. Schools and colleges were provided for christians for free.
LOL at your upliftment of "down trodden". Statistics in Kerala show that the poorest group in Kerala are the lower caste Hindus, then comes the hindus.
The riches group are the xtians and the muslims. They are the largest land owners as well as business owners as well as people who control the govt. and the capital. The gulf nation has employed more xtians and muslims than hindus.
The christian church is the largest land owner in India and they are only 2% of the population.
The syrian church is the largest land owner in kerala and the largest rubber estate owner. Combine that with the statistics of muslim growth from all over India over this 70 years and everyone will get a clear idea that this is not a one time aberration but just the beginning of the new normal, the trend.
All of which are FACTS.
Your attempts at dismissing the rights of Hindus are BS.
Who will run for those jobs and court positions the most? Those who had jobs and position of political power else where or those who have none!
Alas, Our courts fail us even with your technicality, that "intent was not to hurt". The youth congress of Kerala slaughtered a calf in a video heckling the hindus to stop them if they could. You have to do some real mental gymnastics to deny that this isnt a classic case intending to offend. Our courts were mysteriously whistling at the other direction. Same with the intentional dare sent, when periyar followers invited for a beef banquet in IITM for the express purpose of showing a *censored*-you. To add injury to insult- the rioters were arrested- the opposite occured in the malerkotla case. You get my point? Even when there is clear intent to hurt and it is done in an exaggerated fashion with brouhaha.
Very simply put, the barometer for the bias is pretty easy. In public , I will be arrested for snidely saying that i burned a holy book or used it as toilet paper. Everybody knows and so nobody dares. But you hear snide comments of eating beef all the time, with no fear of any repercussion. Goes to show.
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The most capable of the converted, that's who.
After all the eunuch Hazar Dinari Malik Kafur was made the general despite being a eunuch and after converting to islam under Allauddin Khilji.
This is where you are wrong.
Here is a simple simulation which I did on Excel.
Current population (assuming 100000)
Current Birth rate Assuming 2.4% (which is indeed birth rate of Muslims in Kerala.
Current Death rate Assuming 0.5% ( ditto)
Avg age (assuming 20 years but you can choose anything else)
Avg Age of death among population: 65
New population each year = current population * (100 + Birth rate - Death rate) / 100.
New avg age =
Current Pop * Current Avg Age //Total Age of population in past year
+ Current Pop*(100 - Death Rate) /100 //1 year increment in age for living
- Current Pop*65*DeathRate/100 //Removing age of those who died
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Population as calculated above
Results
Year Pop Birth Rate % Death Rate % Avg Age
0 100000 2.4 0.5 20
1 101900 2.4 0.5 20.21099117
2 103836.1 2.4 0.5 20.41804825
3 105808.9859 2.4 0.5 20.6212446
4 107819.3566 2.4 0.5 20.82065221
5 109867.9244 2.4 0.5 21.01634172
6 111955.415 2.4 0.5 21.20838245
7 114082.5679 2.4 0.5 21.39684245
8 116250.1366 2.4 0.5 21.58178846
9 118458.8892 2.4 0.5 21.76328603
so on an so forth
The population will grow older as an average with time and growth rate will hence slow reaching an equilibrium. Fertility drops remarkably after the age of 26-27. The effects are even more pronounced due to higher attainment of education with each subsequent generation -- which delays marriage and limits children.
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Were they arraigned in the court? If they were, the case would have gone into hearing atleast. In kerala IIRC cow slaughter is legal as per state law. But yes, hurting religious sentiment charges could be pressed if they deliberately slaughtered a calf while mocking Hindus.
Dont Worry ; We will Put AFSPA in Kerala
And Bring Soldiers from North India if Hindus are threatened
And Bring Soldiers from North India if Hindus are threatened