Indonesia orders 42 Rafale jets from France

[randomradio]

I was reading up on the mess between Indonesians & koreans regarding kf21. It seems like the indons were dithering on their share of funds and would offer commodities in place of money (something that other south-east asian nations do as well). So, if this deal goes through, it seems unlikely that they would have money for kf21. Did they just ditch the project with the koreans effectively?

It's unlikely for the KF-21 to interfere with the Rafale or F-15. Both programs could finish delivering by the time F-33 (Indo's designation) deliveries begin. In the meantime, their share of the development cost is $1.5B, so it's not a lot. In fact I won't be surprised if their aim is to buy the KF-21 Block 2 with the LO + IWB options. That will give them plenty of time.

In any case, Indonesia confirmed their involvement in KF-21 in August last year, so they made their decision knowing fully well what they were getting into.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[kor4116]

You don't have to be a fan to understand that. In no way does f-15ex make sense for India. Forget all the export compliant downgrades to the f15's hardware and software, the entirely new supply lines & training will eat up a lot of money. Then comes the inflexibility regarding modifications for indian sub-systems that russians agreed to. All the new Indian A-to-A missiles and radars/maws/etc will never go onto f15.

I was reading up on the mess between Indonesians & koreans regarding kf21. It seems like the indons were dithering on their share of funds and would offer commodities in place of money (something that other south-east asian nations do as well). So, if this deal goes through, it seems unlikely that they would have money for kf21. Did they just ditch the project with the koreans effectively?

What are your views?

The KF-21 is a necessary project to achieve the target number of future fighters for the Indonesian Air Force. The F-15 and Rafale are very expensive fighters to fill that number. It is expected that Indonesia will not give up because the share of Indonesia's share in KF-21 development is very small compared to the F-15 or Rafale projects, which are close to $10 billion per project. However, some Koreans are concerned that Indonesia's future number of KF-21s, which may exceed the current target in the future, may be eroded by Rafale and F-15. Of course I don't think so.

 

[Lolwa]

Forget money, it wasn't even technologically suitable. An upgraded MKI will be superior due to airframe advantages.

Its More of the weapons suite. F-15 can use a bunch of standoff munitions and cruise missiles. We haven't really developed any equivalents of it on our own.

 

[randomradio]

Its More of the weapons suite. F-15 can use a bunch of standoff munitions and cruise missiles. We haven't really developed any equivalents of it on our own.

The MKI has more advanced and more diverse weapons options than the F-15, both operational and in development.

 

[Lolwa]

The MKI has more advanced and more diverse weapons options than the F-15, both operational and in development.

We don't have any operational equivalent of the.
Cbu-97
Jdam
Paveway
JASSM-ER
LRASM
Aim 120D
JSOW

Granted we have an aim120d equivalent under development. But we still haven't deployed any other capability as stated above. We won't be having any EW capability equivalent of the EPAWSS.

 

[randomradio]

We don't have any operational equivalent of the.
Cbu-97
Jdam
Paveway
JASSM-ER
LRASM
Aim 120D
JSOW

Granted we have an aim120d equivalent under development. But we still haven't deployed any other capability as stated above. We won't be having any EW capability equivalent of the EPAWSS.

I'd prefer the MKI's options over every single one of those. In fact, the F-15 has better weapons options than what you've mentioned, but still the MKI's weapons are better.

Simply put, the MKI has better BVR/WVR weapons (both next gen versus Aim-120D/9X combo), better PGMs (greater weight and better seeker options), better ARMs (Rudram-1 and KH-31) and better AShMs options (Brahmos and LRLACM), both current and upcoming. Only the LRASM stands out for the F-15, pretty much everything else favours the MKI.

 

[Lolwa]

I'd prefer the MKI's options over every single one of those. In fact, the F-15 has better weapons options than what you've mentioned, but still the MKI's weapons are better.

Simply put, the MKI has better BVR/WVR weapons (both next gen versus Aim-120D/9X combo), better PGMs (greater weight and better seeker options), better ARMs (Rudram-1 and KH-31) and better AShMs options (Brahmos and LRLACM), both current and upcoming. Only the LRASM stands out for the F-15, pretty much everything else favours the MKI.

Cbu-97 equivalent??

 

[_Anonymous_]

Cbu-97 equivalent??

Haven't we imported that from the US ?

 

[Innominate]

I'd prefer the MKI's options over every single one of those. In fact, the F-15 has better weapons options than what you've mentioned, but still the MKI's weapons are better.

Not even close.

Simply put, the MKI has better BVR/WVR weapons (both next gen versus Aim-120D/9X combo)

Be specific how they are better or it's just considered your opinion.

, better PGMs (greater weight and better seeker options), better ARMs (Rudram-1 and KH-31) and better AShMs options (Brahmos and LRLACM), both current and upcoming. Only the LRASM stands out for the F-15, pretty much everything else favours the MKI.

None of these ever tested in combat.

The F-15ex EW is more capable and more advanced that the french plane. Spectra isn't even an offensive EW and its AESA doesn't have EW capability I ca only imagine MKI being much worse in the EW realm.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes​

The U.S. Air Force’s new F-15EX—a 21st-century update of the classic Eagle fighter—isn’t just a potentially powerful, long-range shooter with plenty of underwing room for bigger air-to-air and hypersonic missiles.


It’s also a jamming platform. Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWSS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

In that capacity, the new Boeing fighter partially could complement the U.S. Navy’s EA-18Gs—the only dedicated radar-jamming planes in the American arsenal—and also partially and belatedly replace the Air Force’s last jammer, the EF-111. The flying branch retired the swing-wing EF-111 way back in 1998.

The BAE Systems EPAWSS is a radio-frequency receiver and jammer. It detects enemy radars, determines their frequency and shoots narrow beams of electronic noise at them. That can clutter their screens and hide the F-15 and surrounding aircraft.

A radar-jammer is not new technology. EPAWSS however could be more effective than older fighter-size jammers are thanks to new algorithms that help EPAWSS automatically target enemy sensors.

The jammer’s usefulness is obvious. Chinese- and Russian-made air-defenses are getting more sophisticated and more numerous.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes

Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWWS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

www.forbes.com

F-15ex has an overwhelming chance surviving chicom IADS than IAF MKI or french plane.

 

[Optimist]

The MKI has more advanced and more diverse weapons options than the F-15, both operational and in development.

LOL...Russia stronk

 

[_Anonymous_]

LOL...Russia stronk

He's not referring to Russia exclusively at all . Since the very conceptualization of the MKI the avionics have been a blend of Russian French & Israeli ones particularly the latter 2 with creeping indigenization since then .

Ditto for the armaments package minus the involvement of France & Israel. In certain aspects the MKI is one up on the F-15 EX like in the deployment of the Brahmos . In others it's in the same bandwidth although I wouldn't go so far as to say it exceeds the capacities of the EX here.

As regards it's avionics particularly it's radar & EW capabilities , there's a long pending upgrade which should've been duly signed off a few years back & is long overdue . Hopefully we should conclude it in this calendar year if not the next financial year.

Further , as to what would constitute the upgrade is a matter of endless speculation. We'd know once the agreement is duly inked though I'd venture to say that by no means would it be in any manner inferior to any of the 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen / 4.5 Gen + / 4.5 Gen ++ fighters around given that we have access to the best in technology minus US tech in that field.

 

[xxxxx]

Not even close.


Be specific how they are better or it's just considered your opinion.


None of these ever tested in combat.

The F-15ex EW is more capable and more advanced that the french plane. Spectra isn't even an offensive EW and its AESA doesn't have EW capability I ca only imagine MKI being much worse in the EW realm.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes​

The U.S. Air Force’s new F-15EX—a 21st-century update of the classic Eagle fighter—isn’t just a potentially powerful, long-range shooter with plenty of underwing room for bigger air-to-air and hypersonic missiles.


It’s also a jamming platform. Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWSS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

In that capacity, the new Boeing fighter partially could complement the U.S. Navy’s EA-18Gs—the only dedicated radar-jamming planes in the American arsenal—and also partially and belatedly replace the Air Force’s last jammer, the EF-111. The flying branch retired the swing-wing EF-111 way back in 1998.

The BAE Systems EPAWSS is a radio-frequency receiver and jammer. It detects enemy radars, determines their frequency and shoots narrow beams of electronic noise at them. That can clutter their screens and hide the F-15 and surrounding aircraft.

A radar-jammer is not new technology. EPAWSS however could be more effective than older fighter-size jammers are thanks to new algorithms that help EPAWSS automatically target enemy sensors.

The jammer’s usefulness is obvious. Chinese- and Russian-made air-defenses are getting more sophisticated and more numerous.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes

Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWWS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

www.forbes.com

F-15ex has an overwhelming chance surviving chicom IADS than IAF MKI or french plane.

查看主题 - 美国空军对SU-30MKI / MiG-21野牛的评估 - 现代军用飞机 (f-16.net)

 

[randomradio]

Cbu-97 equivalent??

Nobody even produces that anymore. It's been superceded by PGMs.

 

[randomradio]

Not even close.


Be specific how they are better or it's just considered your opinion.


None of these ever tested in combat.

Next gen electronics, next gen propulsion etc.

Take PGMs for example, new Indian and Israeli PGMs like glide bombs come with seekers, whereas Americans are still using non-seeker versions. The US has just one type called StormBreaker with a seeker, whereas India has it in all weight categories. The French Hammer is at the peak of all such PGMs and even that's an option on the MKI.

New BVR weapons come with dual pulse motors o ramjets and carry more advanced seekers, AIM-120 lacks both. Modern WVR weapons like MICA IR, Python V and ASRAAM can even hit targets behind the aircraft, the AIM-9X can't do that.

Don't really have to explain much about the superiority of ramjet in CMs, like Brahmos, LRLACM and KH-31.

 

[randomradio]

LOL...Russia stronk

Nope. India stronk. Israel and Europe too.

The MKI's upcoming weapons options are from across the world. Majority will be Indian, whereas we are gonna exercise various options for exotic tech from foreign shores.

 

[Lolwa]

Not even close.


Be specific how they are better or it's just considered your opinion.


None of these ever tested in combat.

The F-15ex EW is more capable and more advanced that the french plane. Spectra isn't even an offensive EW and its AESA doesn't have EW capability I ca only imagine MKI being much worse in the EW realm.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes​

The U.S. Air Force’s new F-15EX—a 21st-century update of the classic Eagle fighter—isn’t just a potentially powerful, long-range shooter with plenty of underwing room for bigger air-to-air and hypersonic missiles.


It’s also a jamming platform. Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWSS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

In that capacity, the new Boeing fighter partially could complement the U.S. Navy’s EA-18Gs—the only dedicated radar-jamming planes in the American arsenal—and also partially and belatedly replace the Air Force’s last jammer, the EF-111. The flying branch retired the swing-wing EF-111 way back in 1998.

The BAE Systems EPAWSS is a radio-frequency receiver and jammer. It detects enemy radars, determines their frequency and shoots narrow beams of electronic noise at them. That can clutter their screens and hide the F-15 and surrounding aircraft.

A radar-jammer is not new technology. EPAWSS however could be more effective than older fighter-size jammers are thanks to new algorithms that help EPAWSS automatically target enemy sensors.

The jammer’s usefulness is obvious. Chinese- and Russian-made air-defenses are getting more sophisticated and more numerous.

The U.S. Air Force’s New F-15EX Fighters Could Double As Jamming Planes

Fitted with the new Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, or EPAWWS, the twin-engine, two-seat F-15EX in theory could project a protective bubble of radar-muddling noise around itself and nearby warplanes.

www.forbes.com

F-15ex has an overwhelming chance surviving chicom IADS than IAF MKI or french plane.

Actually the Rafale still has better survivability simply because of a far lower RCS than the f-15 EX. The thing won't be able to enter Chinese ADS without getting lit up. All of f-15 shotdowns have been through SAM's

 

[Lolwa]

Haven't we imported that from the US ?

But we need an Indian equivalent of it. The cbu 97 can only be used on the jaguars. Considering the mki will be used as bomb trucks it makes sense the we integrate a cbu-97 equivalent. Although only U.S seems to have such a munition. No other country seems to have it from my limited knowledge.

 

[_Anonymous_]

But we need an Indian equivalent of it. The cbu 97 can only be used on the jaguars. Considering the mki will be used as bomb trucks it makes sense the we integrate a cbu-97 equivalent. Although only U.S seems to have such a munition. No other country seems to have it from my limited knowledge.

If the MKIs are supposed to do everything why do we have the Jaguars for ? The CBU 97 can also be carried by the Rafales subject to modifications. I see no pressing need to indigenize it's manufacturing or even develop it's substitutes. In any case you have a whole family of indigenous PGMs coming up . I'm sure one of them has been rigged to carry such sub munitions.

 

[Bon Plan]

Kf21 is going to be very expensive.

so is F15ex.