Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

Be a part of an active alliance against China and keep hitting them on LAC
Whenever they intrude

Actively boycott their products

Raise Tibet issue and establish Relations with Taiwan

So that basically implies doing nothing.

An active alliance against China doesn't work in our favour, for one. I had already touched upon the subject. In order to have an active alliance, we need to buy American gear in order to become compatible with their alliance in the Pacific. That is both unaffordable and definitely doesn't suit our interest because the Americans will retain control over their gear, particularly communication gear, which implies Americans are going to be sitting in Indian bases in India. But more importantly, we will be called to fight American wars all over the world. At the same time, they most likely will not and do not have the capability to fight for India in the Himalayas when we are involved in a fight with China.

Boycotting their products does little because we are highly dependent on most of those products. At best, of the massive import bill we have with them, only a few billion worth can benefit from import substitution programs. Any such plan will take a decade to meet our expectations. We can start somewhere at the very least, but this doesn't really hurt them, unless a lot of countries join in.

I agree with Tibet, but that's a very long term game plan. Ultimately, it's only posturing since the Tibetans themselves have no power to change anything on the ground.

Taiwan agrees with China when it comes to the border issue. Even they are technically our enemy on this subject.

As for "keep hitting them on the LAC", you need to specify the scale. If we get into localised shooting matches with them, they can also retaliate the same way. Both are more or less on par, but they have the ability to outspend us in this department. And we will both get an endless stream of bodies. The only benefit for us is there will be tremendous social impact in China with parents and grandparents losing their only child. But that's not something the CCP is going to care much about given the relatively small body count compared to the size of their population. CCP will most likely send the undesirable sections of their population as cannon fodder to face us, like their prisoners, minority groups etc, like what Pakistan does in Kashmir, which will benefit the CCP in the long run.

Now do you see some of the problems? I'm quite interested in knowing how the govt will actually react, but there are not as many options that will be visible to the general population. A lot of the retaliatory work will have to happen behind the scenes instead. Unless the govt thinks we can fight a limited war with China and get away unscathed.
 
No.

That's not how Administrative services are designed. You won't even know Indian Defence Secretary's name even when he holds immense power.

Sorry to rain on parade where we are manufacturing new enemies when we run out of blaming politicians, congress, army, communists and all by calling them dabba wala or whatever clownish names.

They don't stand to lose a damn thing if war breaks out infact they get elevated among peers, can sway emergency purchase for commissions and all.
If there's no India, or a huge backlash that threatens a reformation of beureucracy if India loses. That's what they fear. If there's a result like '62 (not going to happen, just trying to explain their view), there'll be calls for reforming the systems that hamper acquisitions etc.
 
MoD and MEA babus sitting pretty with their salaries and cushy lives. If wars really start in earnest, won't military take a more frontal space? Won't their postings and standings hurt?

Before Chinese, a certain other class of red tapers need some love from dandas and gangajal.
Why blame Babus only. Whole society is rotting. Can’t you see failure of army and intelligence agencies times and again to enemy movements and manoeuvres.
We have not learned anything from Kargil and Doklam. And are repeating mistakes after mistakes. And look at the Rumor of army army airlifting riot gear as if we are preparing to with the war by stopping riots. It’s like hireups are in brain freeze.
What’s next ? Airlifting BPJs when Chiks start shooting at you
Or airlifting bunkers when they will start shelling at you
 
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If there's no India, or a huge backlash that threatens a reformation of beureucracy if India loses. That's what they fear. If there's a result like '62 (not going to happen, just trying to explain their view), there'll be calls for reforming the systems that hamper acquisitions etc.
I have never heard of any such view from them, where you get that?

And acquisitions are hampered either during trial, changing goal posts, inability to decide or GoI unwillingness to pay.

It's either the end user unclear what they want or decision makers unwillingness that hampers it, "babus" here are neither of them.
 
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hold Aksai Chin.
starting a war is easy ending on your terms is what matters. We certainly can push them back but can we hold them for longer period of time ? Unless we can force a immediate truce fight will go on. We should push them back and invite world powers attention to maintain status quo. Thats the only way we can ensure that we will come out with positives.
 
If wars really start in earnest, won't military take a more frontal space? Won't their postings and standings hurt?
Beaurocracy 101 : Dabba-Wallas are not responsible for anything. Dabba-Wallas are recruited by UPSC or are on deputation from god knows where. Lastly, Dabba-Wallas dont care, they made their fat commissions, homes in South Delhi etc. So they give a damn about rest of the India. At worst they will take VRS and live happily ever after.
You won't even know Indian Defence Secretary's name even when he holds immense power.
Ugh... nope.

Current one is Ajay Kumar.

Past all seccys are :


Indian govt is surprisingly open when it comes to lot of things... Weird kind of pride runs in these guys.
 
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sizing up each other.

Enormous push by the bureaucracy to engage in talks. Very few within army command are interested in any form of talks anymore. So everything now is being conducted at behest of bureaucracy. The idea of 500 police body kits being airlifted to leh is also apparently sourced from bureaucracy and shoved down the throat of the army.

Patrolling across the LAC could go on hold. It is too risky to send regular patrol units unarmed against premeditated ambushes. And the bureaucracy refuses to clear firearms and ammunition carry by Frontline patrol units. This could dangerously play into Chinese hands across the LAC while we try to figure out patrolling challenges.

Also pressure from MoD ministry to not reinforce the troops at LAC lest it escalates tensions. Laughable logic given that Chinese are now heavily reinforcing their front. The numerical imbalance at the front is now 2x-4x it was just 96 hours back. Edit: my wording was flawed. Troop reinforcement to the front,I.e. the LAC are being discouraged by MoD. But as of now no restructions on build up on troop levels at base HQ and rear areas.
 
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Also pressure from MoD ministry to not reinforce the troops at LAC lest it escalates tensions.
wow thats congress party in action. Are bureaucrats present to enable or disable the military? If they cannot manage it they need to be sent home. Its not Military's responsibility to make their task easy. After few years they will retire and pass on the problem and the same attitude to next gen.
You want to fix India? Make Dabba-Wallas pay for their *censored* ups.
We need to have accountability & responsibility , we dont need these ineffective ppl who are burden to the system. They need to be removed and sent home. Whats the point in having them if the end result will be same with or without them?
 
Enormous push by the bureaucracy to engage in talks. Very few within army command are interested in any form of talks anymore. So everything now is being conducted at behest of bureaucracy. The idea of 500 police body kits being airlifted to leh is also apparently sourced from bureaucracy and shoved down the throat of the army.

Patrolling across the LAC could go on hold. It is too risky to send regular patrol units unarmed against premeditated ambushes. And the bureaucracy refuses to clear firearms and ammunition carry by Frontline patrol units. This could dangerously play into Chinese hands across the LAC while we try to figure out patrolling challenges.

Also pressure from MoD ministry to not reinforce the troops at LAC lest it escalates tensions. Laughable logic given that Chinese are now heavily reinforcing their front. The numerical imbalance at the front is now 2x-4x it was just 96 hours back.
Thats a large number of chinese rods captured by Indian army.. Looks like quite a few chinese heads were busted open.. Now I like it..
As expected they have come bloody well planned & prepared. If we keep following the stupid rules we set for ourselves then the world will laugh at us. Its high time we provide autonomy to the military to manage the border instead of power hungry arm chair bureaucrats pulling the string. Send them to the border from their cosy chairs in delhi.
 
Enormous push by the bureaucracy to engage in talks. Very few within army command are interested in any form of talks anymore. So everything now is being conducted at behest of bureaucracy. The idea of 500 police body kits being airlifted to leh is also apparently sourced from bureaucracy and shoved down the throat of the army.

Patrolling across the LAC could go on hold. It is too risky to send regular patrol units unarmed against premeditated ambushes. And the bureaucracy refuses to clear firearms and ammunition carry by Frontline patrol units. This could dangerously play into Chinese hands across the LAC while we try to figure out patrolling challenges.

Also pressure from MoD ministry to not reinforce the troops at LAC lest it escalates tensions. Laughable logic given that Chinese are now heavily reinforcing their front. The numerical imbalance at the front is now 2x-4x it was just 96 hours back.
This is a big mistake. I don't think anything stops us from building up force levels if not at the LAC then at the rear & acclimatise them. Go the whole hog & cancel leaves, summon up your reserves, put the IA, IAF, IN & all the para militaries on full alert.

By now, it's amply clear, the Chinese did what they did on 15th June to provoke an Indian response so that they could then claim India is the aggressor. This wasn't a localised incident or something which was unauthorized by Beijing.

If the Modi government thinks this is going to be resolved by talks & the Chinese are going to withdraw they're sadly mistaken & I think they're aware of it.

I'm not sure if we've gamed a response. Of course, as a layman I've no way of ascertaining what the IA has gamed for. But at this rate, it's evident the Chinese will attack if we don't accept their fait accompli. It's only a matter of time. It's clear they're playing for time. It's also clear we are aware what their game plan is. I'm just not sure what our game plan is.

I can understand the dilemma of this government but if we don't have a choice in this matter, we don't have a choice in this matter. We prepare & fight with what we have. For if this government is thinking of conceding to Chinese demands, all this drama was unnecessary. They could've silently acceded to it like the UPA & spared us the unnecessary losses.

I think a larger game is afoot as far as India is concerned. I just can't seem to put my finger on exactly what it is.
 
Indian govt is surprisingly open when it comes to lot of things... Weird kind of pride runs in these guys.
govt apparatchiks who take sadistic pleasure in ordering you around by creating & playing with mundane rules. Sole intention is indirectly concentrate power and abuse it.
 
starting a war is easy ending on your terms is what matters. We certainly can push them back but can we hold them for longer period of time ? Unless we can force a immediate truce fight will go on. We should push them back and invite world powers attention to maintain status quo. Thats the only way we can ensure that we will come out with positives.

We will have to gain tactical advantages in a lot of places if we are to end the war on our terms.

I have no clue whether we have the ability to take the fight deep inside China, which is what ultimately matters. At the very least, I know for sure that our modernisation program must complete, which could take as long as 2028 for the army, with infantry modernisation and new comm system being key. The air force will take decades, but that's okay.
 
This is a big mistake. I don't think anything stops us from building up force levels if not at the LAC then at the rear & acclimatise them. Go the whole hog & cancel leaves, summon up your reserves, put the IA, IAF, IN & all the para militaries on full alert.

By now, it's amply clear, the Chinese did what they did on 15th June to provoke an Indian response so that they could then claim India is the aggressor. This wasn't a localised incident or something which was unauthorized by Beijing.

If the Modi government thinks this is going to be resolved by talks & the Chinese are going to withdraw they're sadly mistaken & I think they're aware of it.

I'm not sure if we've gamed a response. Of course, as a layman I've no way of ascertaining what the IA has gamed for. But at this rate, it's evident the Chinese will attack if we don't accept their fait accompli. It's only a matter of time. It's clear they're playing for time. It's also clear we are aware what their game plan is. I'm just not sure what our game plan is.

I can understand the dilemma of this government but if we don't have a choice in this matter, we don't have a choice in this matter. We prepare & fight with what we have. For if this government is thinking of conceding to Chinese demands, all this drama was unnecessary. They could've silently acceded to it like the UPA & spared us the unnecessary losses.

I think a larger game is afoot as far as India is concerned. I just can't seem to put my finger on exactly what it is.
They are obviously going to present us a fait accompli, given what happened at doklam we should have been smart. But seems that bureaucrats have as usual advised extreme caution to placate the aggressor. After some time these monkeys are going to gloat that they defused tension and brought peace to the region at the cost of national security. Then these rogues will travel to beijing have another round of talks and assure them India will keep bowing to them. Same old story.
 
We will have to gain tactical advantages in a lot of places if we are to end the war on our terms.

I have no clue whether we have the ability to take the fight deep inside China, which is what ultimately matters. At the very least, I know for sure that our modernisation program must complete, which could take as long as 2028 for the army, with infantry modernisation and new comm system being key. The air force will take decades, but that's okay.
At the very minimum, the brief for the IA would be to get the Chinese to vacate the entire Aksai Chin & then move further. If this doesn't remain a localised affair which I'm sure it wouldn't, go after Doklam, Kailash Mansarovar, Xigatse, etc as bargaining chips. Be prepared to throw everything you've into it.

From the looks of it, this is bound to end in a ceasefire at some point. Let it not be with us having lost like in 1962. A stalemate would suit our purpose too.
 
Ghanta response. MoD babus killing our troops and people here bootlicking then.

Yes, stop pretenses. Anyone taking side of babus and peaceniks right now is a either a Chinese or a beaurecracy bootlicker. There will be no response since these jackass babus and peaceniks have their kids in cushy schools and colleges and sitting at homes while a certain other Babu risks his life for us at the border.

Targeted l****ing of these beurecrat Babus is what's needed.
 
What do you think about all border talks from now on being conducted with a bureaucrat side by side with an officer?
NO! Thats not how it works. Because that will put responsibility on Dabba-Walla, not to mention put him in danger.

Talks will be done by military on orders of Dabbas.
 
We will have to gain tactical advantages in a lot of places if we are to end the war on our terms.

I have no clue whether we have the ability to take the fight deep inside China, which is what ultimately matters. At the very least, I know for sure that our modernisation program must complete, which could take as long as 2028 for the army, with infantry modernisation and new comm system being key. The air force will take decades, but that's okay.
ppl keep asking that they need to buy computer that will be latest & last for 10 years. Obvious answer is that nothing will remain latest and every thing will keep getting old as new tech keeps coming in.

As such our modernization will never get completed after 4/5 years we will have more requirements or updated technology. Then it will move to 2030 and the goal post will keep shifting. Truth is you fight a war with military you have not wait for one you want. Second is that we need to aim for minimum needs not 5 year or 50 year plans. These are all vestiges of our bureaucratic culture which is used to 5 year plans and who are more into the process than result. Good employment generator at the best.
 
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They are obviously going to present us a fait accompli, given what happened at doklam we should have been smart. But seems that bureaucrats have as usual advised extreme caution to placate the aggressor. After some time these monkeys are going to gloat that they defused tension and brought peace to the region at the cost of national security. Then these rogues will travel to beijing have another round of talks and assure them India will keep bowing to them. Same old story.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Those bureaucrats aren't the enemies of the nation, they may just have an alternative view. After all, can you imagine a situation where in the army, any army, requests the government for talks.

If any army does so they aren't fit to be in the army for the principal duty of the army is to fight whatever the odds . That's how they're trained & that's how they think.

At the moment, even if we prevail over the Chinese today, there are larger ramifications - principally the Chinese would up the ante across sectors, step up co operation with the Paxtanis & the next time you can bet we will be presented with a 2.5 front for which we're certainly unprepared unless we're willing to play madman & unleash the bomb.Countering this involves investing totally on our security with all development related spending being severely curtailed or stopped.
 
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