Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

[BlackOpsIndia]

Enormous push by the bureaucracy to engage in talks. Very few within army command are interested in any form of talks anymore. So everything now is being conducted at behest of bureaucracy. The idea of 500 police body kits being airlifted to leh is also apparently sourced from bureaucracy and shoved down the throat of the army.

Patrolling across the LAC could go on hold. It is too risky to send regular patrol units unarmed against premeditated ambushes. And the bureaucracy refuses to clear firearms and ammunition carry by Frontline patrol units. This could dangerously play into Chinese hands across the LAC while we try to figure out patrolling challenges.

Also pressure from MoD ministry to not reinforce the troops at LAC lest it escalates tensions. Laughable logic given that Chinese are now heavily reinforcing their front. The numerical imbalance at the front is now 2x-4x it was just 96 hours back.

Bureaucrats taking away your gun, forcing you to talk, are you serious? Political executive decide on these matters and army on operational matters.

MoD ministry is conveniently reduced to babus even when head is Minister who follows directions of PM and is stacked with people from armed forces.

We are now being told that a babu is not listening to either Defence Minister or Prime Minister or CDS under whom he works and is forcing India to lose and the boss couldn't do a thing, army is following orders of him. Welcome to new India.

Seems like a new enemy is being manufactured for upcoming surender.

 

[Sunnylol]

I see a lot of folks unjustifiably directing their ire towards bureaucrats in this thread. Also, a lot of misinformation is being peddled across about how they possess unbridled powers and can't be kicked out. Here are two facts:
1. The government can terminate the service of any bureaucrat with more than 25 years of experience or 50 years of age whichever is earlier practically without no reason. That is by rule and has been exercised by the Modi government like no other.
2. Defence Secretary is considered to be one of the most important/influential secretaries with him getting the best of perks/bungalows etc. He can easily be transferred to non-important ministries like woman and child development or worse still sent back to their cadre.
3. Also, the appointment of a CDS having direct access to the PM and DM has further reduced the bureaucrats's power. The DS, unlike CDS, don't have direct access to the PM.
The government has enough wherewithal to tame the bureaucrats and the Modi govt uses them too unlike Congress so stop sniping at bureaucrats for the fault of your favourite politician.
The Directors and the Secretaries can be tamed by Rule 1. For Joint Secretaries their careers can be screwed using 360-degree appraisal systems introduced by Modi. Also, a minister can suspend a joint secretary on flimsy grounds which will damage his career.
Today a lot of otherwise eligible IAS doesn't want a central deputation because of the indiscriminate use by Modi of the above provisions.
I am a Modi bhakt to the core and will again vote for him in 2024 but I am not going to give him a pass on this where he is to blame.
Thanks
Jai Hind!

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

What do you think about all border talks from now on being conducted with a bureaucrat side by side with an officer?

Yes as per many here and he is sold out to enemy and forcing army and PM to surender.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Bureaucrats taking away your gun, forcing you to talk, are you serious? Political executive decide on these matters and army on operational matters.

MoD ministry is conveniently reduced to babus even when head is Minister who follows directions of PM and is stacked with people from armed forces.

We are now being told that a babu is not listening to either Defence Minister or Prime Minister or CDS under whom he works and is forcing India to lose and the boss couldn't do a thing, army is following orders of him. Welcome to new India.

Seems like a new enemy is being manufactured for upcoming surender.

As per the Constitution, the Defense Secretary is responsible for the defense of India. Yes, you read this right.

Bipin Rawat is the new CDS, but defence secretary still in the picture

Any files related to defence policy issues would still have to pass through the Defence Secretary.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[jetray]

OT (mods please excuse, also delete if you think so)

FYI... I have a confession to make.

I once took IAS exam. My degree is in engineering but I took Sociology as subject paper, Heck got a degree from Sadhu Vaswani College, though I never took a single class and only sat for exams. Cleared Prilims Mains and when I was preparing for Interview this is what I was taught : NEVER Portray yourself as someone who has a strong opinion which is against established conventions. It will *censored* up your interview and EVEN if you got in, it will *censored* up your career. Full stop! To reach the coveted position of Principal Secy, you need to qualify early, and keep your record squeaky clean.

Went for interview. One question on strengths of materials. One question on Ghotul among Gonds, since I was a native of that region and claimed to have studied sociology. Then one question on current affairs, specifically Seventh Pay Commission. I opined that it should be mandetory for PSCs or Public Sector Bank employees to be paid in stock options after a certain point in cash with majority of vesting starting 5 years after end of service. The look from panel was interesting. There was just one comment. Indian Government don't pay in stock options. That was it. I knew I disqualified. Results was not surprising. Anyways, I was not exactly top ranker and without a smashing interview was not going to make it.

IAS selects and promotes for those who gel well with the system.

First you targeted the very system which is hiring you , hence they dont like you. It holds good every where. Even I am of the opinion as we move up the ladder in bureaucracy we should give govt bonds instead of high salary or facilities. If the govt does well so will the bonds. It will ensure that they wont go rogue and indulge in corruption. Any misdeeds arising after retirement will affect the value of bonds as well.

Its not just IAS every system does the same, they want to hire/associate ppl just like them. This is nothing but horrible inbreeding process which lead to system not able to introspect or be effective. Every one will be yes masters or follow the same culture. IAS recruitment is totally outdated, more or less it produces sheeps which can shout. Though there are few good ppl in the services they will soon be drowned by the system. The reason why this system exists is it benefits all the politicians and bureaucracy itself.

 

[randomradio]

At the very minimum, the brief for the IA would be to get the Chinese to vacate the entire Aksai Chin & then move further. If this doesn't remain a localised affair which I'm sure it wouldn't, go after Doklam, Kailash Mansarovar, Xigatse, etc as bargaining chips. Be prepared to throw everything you've into it.

From the looks of it, this is bound to end in a ceasefire at some point. Let it not be with us having lost like in 1962. A stalemate would suit our purpose too.

But it can also go the other way, with the Chinese taking even more territories, including South Doklam and Tawang.

We will also need quite a bit of financial aid from the West in order to keep fighting all the way until winter gets in the way.

 

[Lolwa]

Those bureaucrats would happily sell their country and will start Chinese bootlicking the moment the meetings start.
Also since India is not changing its tactics against China any time soon and wants to keep it limited to a melee why don't w start using medeivial tactics to fight the Chinese.

This is just an example but not practical in Tibetan climate. We could take inspiration from the expeditions of Sikh empire and Tibetan combat experience to better strategize in fighting a better melee brawl because by the tone of our Government they are trying to avoid getting into kinetic warfare. Slingshots and arrows should be given priority. Otherwise just do Jai Shree Ram and invade all of aksai chan and setup defensive trenches waiting for the PLA to invade..

 

[DivineHeretic]

Bureaucrats taking away your gun, forcing you to talk, are you serious? Political executive decide on these matters and army on operational matters.

MoD ministry is conveniently reduced to babus even when head is Minister who follows directions of PM and is stacked with people from armed forces.

We are now being told that a babu is not listening to either Defence Minister or Prime Minister or CDS under whom he works and is forcing India to lose and the boss couldn't do a thing, army is following orders of him. Welcome to new India.

Seems like a new enemy is being manufactured for upcoming surender.

Take it easy. You misunderstood what I said. The buck stops with the defence minister and the CCS. No doubt about it.

However it is the job of the bureaucracy and the army officers to help the defense minster in formulating a strategy or philosophy. This includes development and wargaming of scenarios (nor military, but geopolitical and philosophical. Military wargaming is exclusively the ambit of the armed forces though bureaucrats have tried often to intervene even in this space, sometimes quite successfully). There will be a debate, discussion where the bureaucrats will try and convince the minister of their views and positions. And in the history of independent India, barring a few exceptional bureaucrats, in every emergency meeting the bureaucracy has always pushed for the continuation of status quo. The army representatives don't help their case either with their dull, drab reports and stoic faces. You need someone charismatic in those meetings to swing the opinion in your favour when the entire group of bureaucrats are pushing in the other direction

In this specific case the bureaucracy absolutely wants to avoid doing anything that could trigger a change in status quo. And it's projections are alarmist, to say politely. This will have an impact on the minister of defence, and even though it is he and CCS which finally makes the decision, these reports and opinions play on the minds of the ministers and PMs when they decide the course of action.

 

[_Anonymous_]

But it can also go the other way, with the Chinese taking even more territories, including South Doklam and Tawang.

We will also need quite a bit of financial aid from the West in order to keep fighting all the way until winter gets in the way.

All along we've been told that in order to attack or sustain the offensive in high altitudes the Chinese would need a ratio of 3:1 to their advantage at the very minimum & that they didn't have those kind of resources deployed for such a purpose which sort of goes against the grain of what you're suggesting.

The world economy is flat. Even if it weren't, I don't see anyone financially sustaining us. We didn't enjoy this privilege even in 1962 where the Kennedy administration was backing us to the hilt. What hope now? We're in this on our own.

 

[Saaho]

I see a lot of folks unjustifiably directing their ire towards bureaucrats in this thread. Also, a lot of misinformation is being peddled across about how they possess unbridled powers and can't be kicked out. Here are two facts:
1. The government can terminate the service of any bureaucrat with more than 25 years of experience or 50 years of age whichever is earlier practically without no reason. That is by rule and has been exercised by the Modi government like no other.
2. Defence Secretary is considered to be one of the most important/influential secretaries with him getting the best of perks/bungalows etc. He can easily be transferred to non-important ministries like woman and child development or worse still sent back to their cadre.
The government has enough wherewithal to tame the bureaucrats and the Modi govt uses them too unlike Congress so stop sniping at bureaucrats for fault if your favourite politician.
3. Also, the appointment of a CDS having direct access to the PM and DM has further reduced the bureaucrats's power. The DS, unlike CDS, don't have direct access to the PM.
The Directors and the Secretaries can be tamed by Rule 1. For Joint Secretaries their careers can be screwed using 360-degree appraisal systems introduced by Modi. Also, a minister can suspend a joint secretary on flimsy grounds which will damage his career.
Today a lot of otherwise eligible IAS doesn't want a central deputation because of the indiscriminate use if Modi of the above provisions.
I am a Modi bhakt to the core and will again vote for him in 2024 but I am not going to give him a pass on this where he is to blame.
Thanks
Jai Hind!

Couple of things :
1. Government come and go, Dabbas are constant. Also, termination of Dabba selected by UPSC is no joke. They can go and fight in court and after some time they will be reinstated. There are too many precedences of this for courts to ignore. The get all the salary in arrears too.

2. These posts are political indeed. But where do they get the candidates from? Same damn pool of endless Dabba-Wallas. Only their favourites. Lastly, please read my post which has been moved to OT section. Dabbas do not revolt. They put things in due process to cover their posteriors. Meaning, things are never done.

3. CDS system is too new. Dabbas are too deep in the system.

4. Modi is NOT as "New" and "Revolutionary" as people make out of him. At the end of the day, he is a politician. Indian one. One thing people quickly learn in joining government AT any level is this : You cann't work in govt system as a outsider. You have to work with the system. So, to treat PM as different from this system is simple stupidity. RM/PM will HAVE to gel well with the entire set up.

The only point that separates politicians from Dabba-Walla is skin in the game. Dabbas never have any, politicians have it a little bit. Not too much but little bit. After all every 5 years they have to face the public in earnest.

 

[jetray]

At the very minimum, the brief for the IA would be to get the Chinese to vacate the entire Aksai Chin &

No chance we might be biting more than we can chew. We need to aim to push them to karakoram range and get a truce immediately. Thats also a place we might have more chance to hold. If we move any further we might stretch our troops and also war might drag on. We need a quick & short skirmish not a extended one. We capture some land and then start a bargain on far back we can go.

What you are suggesting is more optimistic one but I dont think govt has the stomach for it. For those type of operation we certainly would need more preparation. I am very much sure media will reach there early inside tibet and pitch the tents while we are mobilizing the troops.

 

[_Anonymous_]

No chance we might be biting more than we can chew. We need to aim to push them to karakoram range and get a truce immediately. Thats also a place we might have more chance to hold. If we move any further we might stretch our troops and also war might drag on. We need a quick & short skirmish not a extended one. We capture some land and then start a bargain on far back we can go.

What you are suggesting is more optimistic one but I dont think govt has the stomach for it. For those type of operation we certainly would need more preparation. I am very much sure media will reach there early inside tibet and pitch the tents while we are mobilizing the troops.

View attachment 16483

Perhaps. But whether you push them beyond the Karakorum or go on to claim what in your opinion is your legitimate territory, the import of that & it's repercussions would be the same.

The Chinese will view it as a loss of their legitimate territory. What I'm trying to drive at is the more the land in your position the better the bargain you can arrive at.

 

[Sanglamorre]

New solution from Mudi and Babu's: ban soya sauce. This is what's going to happen at the end.

If hard actions aren't taken, someone will end up getting ripped to shreds. Either Mudi and his Kadi Ninda cabinet or Babus. Talks and talks with result in just more deaths and fancy speeches. If they don't have the balls, I dunno about others, let me go. Me and others will go with rocks and sticks. Not like the govt is letting our forces to carry anything else anyway. Will we do anything? Not likely. Well run out of breath. At least we'll die trying instead of babus tying our hands. Will this mount pressure? Who knows. Those babus aren't human like the rest of us. Otherwise they couldn't have airlifted riot gear now instead of doing it 5 years ago.

Tbh, there isn't anything stopping us from reaching there ourselves.

Maun Mudi will address Yoga on 21st and build consensus to collectively hang up the forces to dry on 19th over samosas with all parties.

If anything else happens, I'll post a long sorry message here, and seek forgiveness from any member who felt hurt. I won't say a word against babus either. But I doubt jack will happen.

 

[Saaho]

Bureaucrats taking away your gun, forcing you to talk, are you serious?

Lemme ask you one thing. How did the 1993/96 treat come into being? Who put together a treaty in which we agreed to terms of holding LAC as sacred, not bringing guns within 2 kms etc etc etc while NOT agreeing to vital point : What is LAC?

This didn't come out of Rao or Bajpei. These details and devil which go with them come out of Dabbas of south block and MEA.

Not to absolve Rao or Bajpei or Modi, but Rao and Bajpei and Modi are still removeable parts of the system. The rusty nuts and bolts are elsewhere.

 

[jetray]

Take it easy. You misunderstood what I said. The buck stops with the defence minister and the CCS. No doubt about it.

However it is the job of the bureaucracy and the army officers to help the defense minster in formulating a strategy or philosophy. This includes development and wargaming of scenarios (nor military, but geopolitical and philosophical. Military wargaming is exclusively the ambit of the armed forces though bureaucrats have tried often to intervene even in this space, sometimes quite successfully). There will be a debate, discussion where the bureaucrats will try and convince the minister of their views and positions. And in the history of independent India, barring a few exceptional bureaucrats, in every emergency meeting the bureaucracy has always pushed for the continuation of status quo. The army representatives don't help their case either with their dull, drab reports and stoic faces. You need someone charismatic in those meetings to swing the opinion in your favour when the entire group of bureaucrats are pushing in the other direction

In this specific case the bureaucracy absolutely wants to avoid doing anything that could trigger a change in status quo. And it's projections are alarmist, to say politely. This will have an impact on the minister of defence, and even though it is he and CCS which finally makes the decision, these reports and opinions play on the minds of the ministers and PMs when they decide the course of action.

Look every where its the same thats how the management and power structure works. But quite often the decision process is hijacked by vested interests who want to maintain their influence. Now this happens when the person at the top is not knowledgeable or does not have considerable experience or has to depend on ppl too much. Effective leaders typically have feel for the entire system and try to keep in touch most parts of the system. Obviously the bureaucracy will bat for status quo other than that what else do they know? Bureaucracy is just motion no progress. It is the minister who has to take charge and lead the way. If he is just a pen pusher or a big mouth then we should not expect much change from the past.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

As per the Constitution, the Defense Secretary is responsible for the defense of India. Yes, you read this right.

Bipin Rawat is the new CDS, but defence secretary still in the picture

Any files related to defence policy issues would still have to pass through the Defence Secretary.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Yeah you should hear more that he functions under political head.

 

[randomradio]

ppl keep asking that they need to buy computer that will be latest & last for 10 years. Obvious answer is that nothing will remain latest and every thing will keep getting old as new tech keeps coming in.

As such our modernization will never get completed after 4/5 years we will have more requirements or updated technology. Then it will move to 2030 and the goal post will keep shifting. Truth is you fight a war with military you have not wait for one you want. Second is that we need to aim for minimum needs not 5 year or 50 year plans. These are all vestiges of our bureaucratic culture which is used to 5 year plans and who are more into the process than result. Good employment generator at the best.

Right now, we're going to have to fight with what we have.

 

[jetray]

Perhaps. But whether you push them beyond the Karakorum or go on to claim what in your opinion is your legitimate territory, the import of that & it's repercussions would be the same.

The Chinese will view it as a loss of their legitimate territory. What I'm trying to drive at is the more the land in your position the better the bargain you can arrive at.

Yes you are right more land we capture greater the bargaining power. But do we have the ability to do that without much preparation? I doubt so.
This govt is already calculating the economic cost than devising security strategy. I am sure ambani will make more calls to PM than chinese.

Right now, we're going to have to fight with what we have.

yup make best use of what we have. Fight tactically and smartly , send the message across that economy or no economy they will get a response.

 

[screambowl]

There is no difference between the PLA and Xi

That's incorrect, most Indians are not aware of the power play within the communist congress in China , like the previous 18th CCP politburo and the 19th politburo the current one.
PLA is more leaned towards Jiang ideology of expansion, 'the three principle's where Xi is towards economic expansion through soft power.
In 18th congress the CCP was surprized when Xi made Wang Qishan the vice premiere and was considered as second most powerful man after Xi until his retirement. The CCP was expecting Li Keqiang( the current premier and also the director of National defence mobilization commission) to head that particular anti corruption directorate. Li Keqiang is actually the political ally of Hu Jintao.It was expected that after Hu Jintao, it was Li Keqiang to succeed him as the party leader but was outranked by Xi in standing committee.

How do you explain away HK and Taiwan? How do you explain away Xi telling his army to get ready for war?

The Hong Kong issue is not new, it been there since the era of Jiang regime. It actually started in then. The politburo is only continuing it.

 

[Saaho]

First you targeted the very system which is hiring you , hence they dont like you. It holds good every where.

I have challenged entire business model of my current employer when I joined them, CEO was more than happy to entertain that thought.