Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

I disagree with you here. Face of loss is death to the Chinese. Anyway time will tell.

They are pragmatic. Any loss of face is dependent on what they are willing to lose in exchange. If they are hellbent on avoiding war, then they will swallow any loss of face.

Bringing in our airforce and navy into the equation is where the scale tilts to our favour. They don't want to involve navy or airforce, we can and will force them to, if we can inject this scenario into their calculations, then situation can turn our way. A short war may not OR may favour them. A full fledged war will expose them.

They will just sit out of it, like Pakistan did during Balakot strikes. Their jets will go underground and their ships will stay on their side of the SEA island chain.
 
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Take it easy. You misunderstood what I said. The buck stops with the defence minister and the CCS. No doubt about it.

However it is the job of the bureaucracy and the army officers to help the defense minster in formulating a strategy or philosophy. This includes development and wargaming of scenarios (nor military, but geopolitical and philosophical. Military wargaming is exclusively the ambit of the armed forces though bureaucrats have tried often to intervene even in this space, sometimes quite successfully). There will be a debate, discussion where the bureaucrats will try and convince the minister of their views and positions. And in the history of independent India, barring a few exceptional bureaucrats, in every emergency meeting the bureaucracy has always pushed for the continuation of status quo. The army representatives don't help their case either with their dull, drab reports and stoic faces. You need someone charismatic in those meetings to swing the opinion in your favour when the entire group of bureaucrats are pushing in the other direction

In this specific case the bureaucracy absolutely wants to avoid doing anything that could trigger a change in status quo. And it's projections are alarmist, to say politely. This will have an impact on the minister of defence, and even though it is he and CCS which finally makes the decision, these reports and opinions play on the minds of the ministers and PMs when they decide the course of action.

So can we conclude that the bureaucrats reports and opinions didn't play into the mind of modi which is why he said the killers will not go unpunished ? . Cant believe how much our jawans blood will be boiling for not able to do something to these PLA *censored*s , If modi backtrack from this , I for once don't mind if IA does something in the border without taking the political leadership into confidence just like the IAF commander who built the DBO strip without the permission from government . I still cant believe that we are negotiating with the barbarians who mutilated our soldiers and there many talking about Chinese will do this and that and we shouldn't escalate .Let them do whatever the fcuk they want we cant stay silent when our honor is at stake 😡😡
 
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You are factually incorrect the Central government can "forcibly retire", which is basically fire any bureaucrat above 50 years of age or has more than 25 years of experience and is working under it. Modi has done this to hundreds of IAS, IRS and CSS and nobody has been reinstated yet.
The rule you are stating is this that no IAS, IPS etc can be fired on the basis of any criminal charges until they run out of legal recourse i.e. proven guilty in the Supreme Court.
Here is a reference link for you along with the relevant clauses in the CCS: After IRS, Modi govt wants to forcibly retire IAS, IPS officers, review tainted ones monthly
I am well aware of that rule, what you are not aware of is something else :


Out of 1.19 LAKH cases total 125 Group A and 187 group B were RECOMMENDED to be compulsorily retired.

That means only 312 cases were taken under this "cleaning of deadwood" from 2014 till 2019. Dabbas are having too strong of a hold on the system. Less than 60 cases per year on an average.

ALL those 1.19 Lakh were qualifying by service time rule, ie they had completed 30 years of service OR were above 50 years AND had joined the cadre before age of 35.
 
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Not a grammar nazi but repeated usage of words without understanding their meaning over the past few days was grating my nerves.
Diffusing a situation here means avoiding confrontation between forces. As simple. Kicking the can on the road.
 
Modi tried to do that as soon as he got in power, USA's message to Modi is just buy our very expensive weapons with zero TOT and we are not going to fullfill your offset obligations either.

And this is from today :-

The article is of 2019.It has been superceded by subsequent events.
The article quoted here is from NYT - the same newspaper which ran an Op Ed by a Taliban leader & sacked an editor for carrying an article by a Republican senator arguing against antifa protests.

Besides this is John Bolton we're talking about who was sacked by Trump & is evidently trying to get even with Trump.
 
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So let me get this straight. They watched their peers getting lynched to death but they didn't use it because of some agreement made ?
They didn't have orders from Delhi to attack back with firearms. Simple. Why? Because of peace treaties and Dabba-Wallahs who enforce it. Why do we have those treaties? Again ask yourself WHO the hell came up with those treaties BUT missing a vital detail : WHAT is common LAC agreeable to India and China. These details are NEVER worked out by Modi or Rao or Bajpei. That said, Modi or Rao or Bajpei have equal blame. They enabled the Dabbas and perhaps even pushed for this kind of unsound treaty negotiation.

Now compare that with Chinese "exchange of maps". Chinese have REFUSED to exchange maps with India on even the understanding of boundries in east or west theatre. YES Chinese are NOT willing to tell which places they lay claim on. They believe they have a major upper hand on the situation ever since 1962 that they do not need to lay claim right now.
Precisely.

In this forum, we should STOP discussing all AESA, SFDR etc if we want to discuss REAL defence. We should be talking more about Dabba-Wallahs and their peculiar decision making. No weapons works without being ordered to do something. Its that crucial order that determines everything.
 
Haha, here we're counting jets and missiles and troops while MEA, Babus, And Modi busy counting how many samosas in their plate while they carry on their CCS meetings.

India even going to attend Russia-China meeting, what all are you expecting? We've finally sold ourselves to the Chinese and assurance of safer lives while our troops die. We just haven't found our slave collars yet. MEA has found theirs, so they're running to attend the RIC meet when their masters yanked their chain.

Mark my words, you, me, we all have chains now. Tomorrow Chinese, Nepali, Pakistanis will come and enjoy our "roti-betis" and this 56 inch cabinet and Babus will roll out red carpet for them as long as their families are stowed away abroad.

MiG-29, Su30 Dreams eh? We aren't even using the guns we have when our soldiers are being attacked and such grandiose expectations. Like always, whether it be Congress or current dispensation, we were sold by our own countrymen. Only carrying us in chains is left. Next time China attacks, that will also happen.

Don't forget to do Yoga on 21st folks! Very important to keep your health tip top so you get a good price on yourselves when you are sold.

And whoever is going to try @me with dhoti shivering, or trolling accusations: our MEA is going to talk and talk and even going to RIC so don't even try giving platitudes. Buying time for who? Chinese attack when they please, they don't wait for Babus to spin their yarn. Talks were already ongoing, they still attacked. And Govt isn't even willing to cancel RIC talks. This is surrender.
 
I hope we overtly go into the American camp , enough of this strategic autonomy bullshit. Even the Russians are staying out.
Americans wont intefere unless we guarantee them support in their issues. Fair enough.
This monkey balancing act whips us from all sides. Pakistan has a better and a trustable ally in China , we have whom? No one.
I would love to have one true friend rather many "could" be friends
I think its not going in this camp or that camp that is the issue here. Just order the Army to go for a full fledged war. Does not matter if win or loose. Just ensure that the enemy has seen the hell, blow up airports in lasha, Xingjian etc. Let the Chinese decide if they want to escalate or not. If not anything, it will draw a red line in front of China for future engagement.
reading a bunch of posts on the forum you reached a conclusion?

are you sure there is going to be no retaliation at all in any shape or form?
No, the official statements. And official response.

Compare this with Iran's response to CIA blowing up their guy.

Now tell me that Iran is way way way powerful than us as relative to USA. Tell me that Iran has 3-4 Aircraft carriers. Tell me that Iran has just tested a hypersonic missile. Tell me that Iran has 150 + nukes with 5000 KM delivery range. Tell me that Iran operates a boomer.
 
China’s People’s Liberation Army meticulously planned attack in Galwan, says senior government official

The Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) meticulously planned the attack on Indian troops in eastern Ladakh’s Galwan for at least two days, a senior government official said.

The Chinese blocked small rivulets in heightened areas, releasing water at high speed when Indian Army personnel appeared at the disputed site in Galwan area on June 15. “The strong gush of water made the men lose balance. The Chinese charged, pushed the Army personnel and many fell into the Galwan river,” the official said.

The Chinese did a reconnaissance by flying unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) to see the strength of the Indian troops and accordingly bolstered their presence on the other side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the official stated.

The Hindu reported on Wednesday that the clash took place after Colonel Santosh Babu, who was commanding the unit, dismantled a tent erected by the Chinese and later set it on fire. During the June 6 military level talks, the two sides decided to remove the tent. It has now emerged that the tent was destroyed two days before the June 15 clash. When Indian troopers were patrolling the contested site, the Chinese threw boulders on them and unleashed strong current of water by unblocking the rivulets.

The Chinese were wearing body protecters, helmets and carried spiked batons, the official noted.

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) had issued a statement that the “Chinese side took premeditated and planned action that was directly responsible for the resulting violence and casualties.”

The official said, “The patrolling team walked into an ambush. The area had witnessed clashes on May 5 and the attack took place despite a high alert. The men were outnumbered by the Chinese. No gunshot was fired”.

As reported, some men “died on the spot” and the exercise to locate the missing bodies continued till late hours of June 16. As many as 20 Army personnel were killed and several injured.

The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), deployed with the Army along the LAC, helped move the injured to the base camp the next day. An ITBP rescue team trekked 3-4 km the next day to evacuate the injured.

At least 20 helicopter sorties from the base camp in Galwan were undertaken to evacuate the injured and retrieve the bodies.

The clash, a first of its kind in the last 45 years, came amidst a “de-escalation” process that was started last week after a month long stand-off between troops at several points along the LAC in Ladakh and Sikkim.
 
China’s People’s Liberation Army meticulously planned attack in Galwan, says senior government official

The Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) meticulously planned the attack on Indian troops in eastern Ladakh’s Galwan for at least two days, a senior government official said.

The Chinese blocked small rivulets in heightened areas, releasing water at high speed when Indian Army personnel appeared at the disputed site in Galwan area on June 15. “The strong gush of water made the men lose balance. The Chinese charged, pushed the Army personnel and many fell into the Galwan river,” the official said.

The Chinese did a reconnaissance by flying unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) to see the strength of the Indian troops and accordingly bolstered their presence on the other side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the official stated.

The Hindu reported on Wednesday that the clash took place after Colonel Santosh Babu, who was commanding the unit, dismantled a tent erected by the Chinese and later set it on fire. During the June 6 military level talks, the two sides decided to remove the tent. It has now emerged that the tent was destroyed two days before the June 15 clash. When Indian troopers were patrolling the contested site, the Chinese threw boulders on them and unleashed strong current of water by unblocking the rivulets.

The Chinese were wearing body protecters, helmets and carried spiked batons, the official noted.

The Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) had issued a statement that the “Chinese side took premeditated and planned action that was directly responsible for the resulting violence and casualties.”

The official said, “The patrolling team walked into an ambush. The area had witnessed clashes on May 5 and the attack took place despite a high alert. The men were outnumbered by the Chinese. No gunshot was fired”.

As reported, some men “died on the spot” and the exercise to locate the missing bodies continued till late hours of June 16. As many as 20 Army personnel were killed and several injured.

The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP), deployed with the Army along the LAC, helped move the injured to the base camp the next day. An ITBP rescue team trekked 3-4 km the next day to evacuate the injured.

At least 20 helicopter sorties from the base camp in Galwan were undertaken to evacuate the injured and retrieve the bodies.

The clash, a first of its kind in the last 45 years, came amidst a “de-escalation” process that was started last week after a month long stand-off between troops at several points along the LAC in Ladakh and Sikkim.


Grim is all I can say.
Military retaliation is must in my opinion. Any self respecting nation cannot let this pass unanswered.
Also, these details should found its place in the MEA official statement. I wonder why it was not mentioned.
 
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So can we conclude that the bureaucrats reports and opinions didn't play into the mind of modi which is why he said the killers will not go unpunished ?
Modi and Dabbas are not two different phenomenons. They are in bed thoroughly. No Dabba can survive if he or she revolts against Modi, that does not happen. And Modi will be mired in tension and scandals if he goes against dabbas too much. They have to have this weird kind of administrative intercourse for the government to function.

The major difference between Modi and Dabba is that of skin in the game.
 
You can achieve everything when you have resources. But your resources are being wasted by foreing ministry on Foreign allowance of those useless people who are doing corruption. 4-5 lakhs per month income when they are posted abroad plus over 1.5 crore expenditure on health + accommodation. Even the good people in Ministry who wants to do something for India suffer because of majority of greedy and corrupt people in MEA!

Tejas ammo AWACS kya khaak kareedoge jab paisa aise baha rahy ho? You really need to question that Jaishankar what he is upto with his ministry. Whole nation is uniting and people in MEA are busy looting India.

There are so many Indian missions abroad, what is India achieving? In the end your all diplomacy has failed. Better to use that money in technology development than spending on stupid diplomacy!

Some one please tweet that Jaishanker to fix his ministry people. Greedy diplomats of India.
In that case its the PMO to blame.

Pakistanis abducted 2 staff from our diplomatic mission. Tortured them for 12 hours flouting all types of rules.

Have we shut down our diplomatic mission yet? Or taken any action?

Any country with an ounce of self respect would have called back entire staff immediately.
 
Grim is all I can say.
Military retaliation is must in my opinion. Any self respecting nation cannot let this pass unanswered.
Also, these details should found its place in the MEA official statement. I wonder why it was not mentioned.
Unless I see smoke coming out of Lasha airport on satellite images, broken run way and blown up flankers in Xinjiang airports and blown up railway bridge connecting Tibet with Mainland, I won't believe a single word of Modi or Dabbas. They have lied enough.
 
Out there on BRF there's speculation that after the first round on June 15th where we lost the CO & 2 jawans to the bludgeoning which in turn may have been precipitated by IA action of burning PLA tents & other material earlier for not withdrawing from the area as previously agreed upon thus being in non compliance of the agreement arrived upon by the respective commanders , in addition to the retaliation from the rest of the company, IA also dispatched other columns where the PLA wasn't in strength & gave them a dose of their own medicine.

Apparently that's what accounts for more casualties on their side over ours. As per the post this can be corroborated by repeated statements by the Chinese to peacefully resolve the issue & to respect the LAC by not transgressing into each other's territory.

Of course all this is speculation & need be taken with a pinch of salt but to those who lay stock on various media reports itself based on unconfirmed sources of PLA losing anyway between 30 - 43 personnel, this is the purported explanation.

IA knows that Chinese mutilated our soldiers , so when they are dispatching their columns to areas where PLA's wasn't in strength & gave them a dose of their own medicine why am i not hearing any IA's head hunting of PLA even as a rumor ? . Only an equal measure of brutality should be considered as giving them a dose of their own medicine nothing less than that
 
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our MEA is going to talk
Trouble is not with MEA talking. MEA is required to talk. Thats the business of MEA. Trouble is with MoD not fighting. Trouble is with MoD not asking MEA to stop all difuse diffuse talking.

Schizophrenia is strong in our government and beaurocacy ....

WTF will these folks are going to talk about Covid?

Folks, it makes me wonder. Are we taking this incidence too seriously? For our illustrious leadership and its celebrated beauracacy this matter is not high on priority list.
 
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Chinese intrusions and India's limited options

In October last year a senior Indian security official on a visit to Ladakh met the General Officer Commanding (GOC) of the Indian Army’s 14 Corps. The Corps was raised in the aftermath of the Kargil war between India and Pakistan in 1999 and has its headquarters in Leh.

Today, 14 Corps under the India’s Northern Army Command is primarily tasked with maintaining the sanctity of the Line of Actual Control that divides Aksai Chin between India and China.


Aksai Chin went under Chinese occupation after 1962 war that dealt India a crushing blow and forced it to vacate large tracts of land and allowing the Chinese to hook up with its all-weather ally Pakistan through the illegally ceded territory of Shaksgam Valley in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK).

The Indian security official gave a detailed briefing to the Lieutenant General Harinder Singh, a former Director General of Military Intelligence, who took over as the GOC of 14 Corps late last year.

The Indian security official explained that the change of the status of Jammu & Kashmir had irked the Chinese. In the coming months they would up the ante and try and capture more land and shift the LAC deeper into Indian-held territory.

Several Indian security officials have confirmed that there was adequate credible intelligence of China’s intentions to up the ante in the Ladakh sector. The heights of the Galwan Valley overlooks a key road that winds its way to Daulet Beg Oldie, a strategic outpost that serves as a key military base for India.

By November/December 2019 the world was waking up to news of a spread of a deadly virus in Wuhan, China and all talk about the Chinese preparation to take over the Galwan Valley in Ladakh was forgotten. As winter set in, Indian troops settled in for business as usual.

But the events that unfolded on the night of June 15 raises several key questions.

Why did India’s top political, strategic and military leadership fail to anticipate and counter Chinese intentions to challenge and occupy Indian claims in Ladakh? How should India now counter a clear and present danger on its northern borders?

Did the newly-appointed Chief of Defence Staff, General Bipin Rawat, mislead the government? How did the plethora of official agencies set up to study China fail to predict a clear change in its India policy?

Rising Hostilities

The brutal killing of Colonel Santosh Babu, the Commanding Officer of the 18th battalion of the Bihar Regiment and his men by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has now brought home the reality of Chinese intentions in Ladakh.

Reliable military and intelligence sources now say that the death toll of Indian soldiers is considerably higher and could be more than 40 soldiers. A Lieutenant Colonel and a Major are still missing and could be in Chinese captivity.

What is inexplicable is why Colonel Babu and his men went unarmed to remove a temporary Chinese structure that was being set up in a place known as Patrolling Point 14.

The standard procedure is to carry assault rifles slung at the back, pointing downwards, to signal peaceful intent, but to also serve as a deterrent to Chinese troops from taking any sudden hostile moves. Why was Colonel Babu and his men sent in unarmed to remove the Chinese infrastructure?

The Chinese plans that the Indian security official had briefed Lieutenant General Harinder Singh late last year continued to be implemented even as the world turned its attention to an emerging pandemic threat from China.

The Chinese build up was confirmed by other Indian intelligence agencies and reports were sent to Delhi. However, they were either missed or ignored allowing the Chinese to build up in the Galwan Valley through the winter.

The Chinese were upset with India’s position on rejecting its ambitious Belt Road Initiative (BRI) to connect global markets to China’s manufacturing industries. It led to a major stand-off between India and China in 2016 at the tri-junction with Bhutan, in the area known as Doklam.

In August last year when India abrogated Article 370, a constitutional provision that gave a special status to the state of Jammu and Kashmir, China responded with fury.

The Chinese claim large parts of Ladakh, eastern part of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir, and any change in status was bound to be viewed as a threat to China’s claims.

What is inexplicable is why did India fail to read tea leaves and China’s intentions to change status quo?

Crumbling Defences

The rising political rhetoric in the aftermath of the “surgical strikes” in 2016 to “avenge” the killing of 19 soldiers in Uri and the air strike on Balakot, Pakistan in February 2019, as a response to the death of 40 Indian policemen in Pulwama, has pushed India into a tight corner. While political rhetoric is good for winning elections, it is not smart strategy.

Soon after the Kargil war, the then Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee government instituted a committee to look into lapses and reform India’s security apparatus. A Group of Ministers went through the recommendations of the Kargil Review Committee and set in motion an ambitious plan to reform India’s security apparatus.

A key recommendation was to appoint a lead agency for every border to ensure better coordination between different security agencies and accountability. For the Ladkah sector the Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was chosen as the lead agency.

It reports to the union Ministry of Home Affairs, which also commands the Intelligence Bureau and was the lead on abrogating Article 370 within months of Prime Minister Modi wining a historic landslide electoral victory in May 2019.

A 700 km border and Line of Actual Control that stretches from the Karakorum ranges to Himachal Pradesh is now manned jointly by the ITBP and the Indian Army. The local ITBP sector headquarters holds a meeting every month with representatives from the intelligence agencies, army, air force, customs and the state police to review any intelligence on China relevant to their sector.

So why did this elaborate Indian security apparatus miss China moving troops nearly two army Divisions (about 9000-12000 men) into the area to occupy the Galwan Valley heights?

Why did they miss China building a road up to a key strategic feature known as Finger 4 considered Indian territory? And how did they miss Chinese troops building semi-permanent bunkers in the Galwan Valley heights?

Compounding Failures

Every year the Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Home Affairs sit and jointly plan the patrolling schedule for the Ladakh sector. Decisions are taken on how many patrols will be sent by the army and ITBP separately and jointly. Each patrol carries GPS units to collect waypoints and record the areas that have been covered.

Clearly, this mechanism failed to anticipate China’s moves to consolidate its position in the Galwan Valley. India’s political and strategic leadership also failed to anticipate that the Chinese would violate bilateral agreements from 1993, 1996 and 2013 that specifically bars any change in status of the LAC by either side.

India’s military, starved of crucial funds for the last six years, has limited war fighting capabilities. At best, it is in a position to sustain a full-scale war for only 12 days after factoring in its current war wastage reserves. India will also have to keep in mind the possibility of a two-front war if Pakistan steps in, if things escalate quickly with China.

The failure to anticipate China’s intentions has already proved costly. However, years of bad planning and abysmal budgets, rapidly spreading Covid19 infections and a broken economy severely restricts India’s options.
 
Looks like it's a kargil again for us,when we were in defensive position vis a vis Chinese in mountain they required an overwhelming ratio of 9:1 to dislodge us.
Now they are sitting at the heights and we have to dislodge them .

So basically looks like they have played their card really well.without high amount of bloodshed we are not going to get our territory back.unlike paksitani NLI which was disowned by Pakistani military which allowed us to use artillery without fearing of retaliation from pak military,here Chinese encroachment have full support of pla

So Bullets and artillery can't kill these superman PLA soldiers , I wonder what else will kill them maybe some advanced weapons from martians :unsure: I wonder even that can give confidence to the defeatist mentality many have here . No wonder Pakistan/China were able to do and currently doing what they did for the past 70 years
 
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