Line of Actual Control (LAC) : India & Tibet Border Updates

As per media reports, PLA has put boots and structures upto F4 and are preventing IA from patrolling till F8, like we used to before April......I guess this is what the the respective Corp commanders are trying to address and resolve.
Cent percent correct, hence change in status quo. One addition, they are preventing access from finger 4 itself, India is unable to reach finger 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. That's my understanding of the situation.
"India has had permanent positions within the disputed area (between fingers 3 and 4) for at least 10 years and expanded its presence in the disputed area in 2015–16. China kept its permanently stationed forces outside of the disputed territory until May. "

"In the past month, Chinese forces have become an overwhelming majority in the disputed areas. Significant positions have been constructed between fingers 4 and 5, including around 500 structures, fortified trenches and a new boatshed over 20 kilometres further forward than previously. More structures appear to be under construction.

The scale and provocative nature of these new Chinese outposts is hard to overstate: 53 different forward positions have been built, including 19 that sit exactly on the ridgeline separating Indian and Chinese patrols."


Will it be wrong say that IA was the aggressor here and tried to change the status quo even though our infrastructure was less than satisfactory and Chinese were able to overwhelm us since they have better infra,it seems to me Chinese planned this properly and waited for 4 years in response to IA actions and executed it too and unwilling to budge now, isn't this a major blunder on part of Indian army?
Yes it will be wrong to say IA was aggressor. We have only resisted the changes in status quo, we haven't made changes in status quo. We expected China to maintain status quo till resolution of outstanding border issue. They didn't, that's altogether different matter which concerns us now. This is all in nutshell.
 
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Cent percent correct, hence change in status quo. One addition, they are preventing access from finger 4 itself, India is unable to reach finger 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. That's my understanding of the situation.

These structures came up before April or after the crisis started in may?
 
1806ladakh1new.jpg


At the lake, the Chinese look like clumps of coronavirus blocked by a mask.
 
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Have we lost the control of Finger 4?, if that is true then we are at a major disadvantage. Even Nathan Ruser was saying that Chinese have made pillboxes on top of Finger 4 which I didn't believe at the the time, Can someone clarify it?. I think government should come clean on this because this is a major loss.
I also think that China accepting the death of there CO is very shady, since they might be preparing there audience for a short term conflict by painting us as the agressor.
According to Rahul kanwal infographic on his show, the Indian post is near to F3. Between F4 and F8 both sides didn't have any strictures, although there was a road laid by the Chinese, but we used to use it to go upto to F8.
My understanding is that we have a post between Finger 3 & 4 while China had built highway till just before Finger 4 in 1996 approximately. Since then Indians used to patrol upto Finger 7 (claims), while Chinese used to patrol upto a place between Finger 4 & 5. Many a times Indians used to reach in deeper areas using waterway. This year Chinese have built the structures in not only point 5,6 & 7 but also on point 4 and all along the Indian LAC on the hills in adjoining northern areas. The effect of this change will be that India will not have direct line of sight till international border from Point side at least which might restrict the maneuverability, hence change in status quo. Another factor (my assumption) is that we never established a structure on point 4, hence control is suspectible here. Controlling and patrolling are different on Chinese border for laymen's.

Another point, Chinese PRC need not worry about their people as they don't have the access to free flow of information (publicly available information), Chinese people only know when CPC wants them to know. Similar as Doklam. As fast they spread enmity feeling in their masses, they spread positive feelings in their subjects in same way. This defies logic from an Indian perspective in a way that Indian administration can spread the enmity faster, but spreading positive feelers is much more difficult for them as Indian people have free will & freedom of expression (with reasonable restrictions). Thank you.



Finger 4 is now under firm control of PLA. PLA didn't had any structures in Finger, 4 5 before. Here is the positions now. They also dug lots of trenches
lake-china.jpg
 
@RISING SUN Chinese controlling area between F4 and F8 is not a big deal(yes it's a loss for us) , we only used to patrol it during winter time when there used to be no Chinese presence, now what has happened is that we have lost control of finger 4 too, if true then I think they have a direct line of sight to DBO road and also they will be able to dominate our positions too, Don't be surprised if we lose the remaining fingers in few years the same way.
 
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Memebers, please remember my earlier post about an allout battle with PLA. They will have to vacate all these areas if they want their soldiers to be secure and put up anykind of fight. These positions are good only for no combat situation. Forget about F4 even Sirijap can't be defended by PLA if we go into offensive mode. You guys have heard about deployment of Mountain strike corps but what you have missed is the deployment of Special Operations Command. Kahani bahut hee alag hai bhaiyo.
But in lighter vein, I will not be able to ask my wife ever again-Golgappey khaogi kya? Thanks to Rajput Regiment for giving it a very different meaning.
 
Memebers, please remember my earlier post about an allout battle with PLA. They will have to vacate all these areas if they want their soldiers to be secure and put up anykind of fight. These positions are good only for no combat situation. Forget about F4 even Sirijap can't be defended by PLA if we go into offensive mode. You guys have heard about deployment of Mountain strike corps but what you have missed is the deployment of Special Operations Command. Kahani bahut hee alag hai bhaiyo.
But in lighter vein, I will not be able to ask my wife ever again-Golgappey khaogi kya? Thanks to Rajput Regiment for giving it a very different meaning.

Any update on the corps commander level talks today?
 
Memebers, please remember my earlier post about an allout battle with PLA. They will have to vacate all these areas if they want their soldiers to be secure and put up anykind of fight. These positions are good only for no combat situation. Forget about F4 even Sirijap can't be defended by PLA if we go into offensive mode. You guys have heard about deployment of Mountain strike corps but what you have missed is the deployment of Special Operations Command. Kahani bahut hee alag hai bhaiyo.
But in lighter vein, I will not be able to ask my wife ever again-Golgappey khaogi kya? Thanks to Rajput Regiment for giving it a very different meaning.

I haven't seen any information that the 72 Div has been raised for the MSC though. Or even if any other existing division has been connected to the MSC. I guess time will tell.
 
@nair We are seeing many claims of their CO getting killed, however I am not able to find anything from Chinese twitter handles. Are the news channels reporting about meeting discussion via sources or is there any other link?

There were 300 plus men out there and with that kind of stregth naturally CO will be present (unless they are learnt from their best friends to remain hidden and let the jawans to fight it out), and in that night with such fights i am sure there were officers present and might have got killed...... Now assuming that officers have been killed, there are 3 scenarios

1) The officer got killed and mortal remains taken away by their soldiers
2) The officer got injured in the melee and later succumbed to injuries
3) The officer got killed and we had their remains (we had handed over close to 17 of their fallen is reported) and handed over to them......

In these cases only the third one will give us the definite confirmation of the death of CO, but the signals we read are not the case.... So it has to be the first and second case.

The most likely scenario would be : During the negotiation Indian side making the death of CO as the most serious point for us (other than going back from agreement), and for which chinese side would have disclosed that they also lost CO, to make the indian side to come out offensive in negotiation. This was later informed to the command chain and later to GOI.

This is the most likely scenario I see here...... Good thing for chinese is no one can ask them any kind of questions, even if some one asks he will wiped out by them ( Covid 19 doctor was the last case for ex)
 
These red blobs represent structures and tents ?


Yes, more than 500 along along the lake
where are these graphics from? Source?


 
There were 300 plus men out there and with that kind of stregth naturally CO will be present (unless they are learnt from their best friends to remain hidden and let the jawans to fight it out), and in that night with such fights i am sure there were officers present and might have got killed...... Now assuming that officers have been killed, there are 3 scenarios

1) The officer got killed and mortal remains taken away by their soldiers
2) The officer got injured in the melee and later succumbed to injuries
3) The officer got killed and we had their remains (we had handed over close to 17 of their fallen is reported) and handed over to them......

In these cases only the third one will give us the definite confirmation of the death of CO, but the signals we read are not the case.... So it has to be the first and second case.

The most likely scenario would be : During the negotiation Indian side making the death of CO as the most serious point for us (other than going back from agreement), and for which chinese side would have disclosed that they also lost CO, to make the indian side to come out offensive in negotiation. This was later informed to the command chain and later to GOI.

This is the most likely scenario I see here...... Good thing for chinese is no one can ask them any kind of questions, even if some one asks he will wiped out by them ( Covid 19 doctor was the last case for ex)

It could also be a ploy to placate the public opinion and soften the army's stance. Its possible that the death of Col. Babu was unplanned and the Chinese sense it could be a factor in hardening India's stand. By claiming they also lost a CO, they can say we both lost men and officers. Now lets talk and solve this.

China wants us on the table not in the field. On the table its bound to score some concessions. On the field its anyone's guess.
 
It could also be a ploy to placate the public opinion and soften the army's stance. Its possible that the death of Col. Babu was unplanned and the Chinese sense it could be a factor in hardening India's stand
I dont think they planned to kill a Col, Unless they were looking for a definite war, Sh!t happens in war, and even though we havent declared one, we were literally into one, so i dotn think they planned to kill CO, but ended up doing that.
 
@RISING SUN Chinese controlling area between F4 and F8 is not a big deal(yes it's a loss for us) , we only used to patrol it during winter time when there used to be no Chinese presence, now what has happened is that we have lost control of finger 4 too, if true then I think they have a direct line of sight to DBO road and also they will be able to dominate our positions too, Don't be surprised if we lose the remaining fingers in few years the same way.
I don't think so. Reason being these areas didn't had Indian structures till date, however inward areas do have permanent structure, hence India will only loose current administered areas if war happens and India ends up as loosing party, hence there is no other chance for India to move away from permanent structures except loosing them in war. Thank you.
 
I haven't seen any information that the 72 Div has been raised for the MSC though. Or even if any other existing division has been connected to the MSC. I guess time will tell.
MSC was created by reassigning the troops from sahayaks and new recuitment with transfer of experienced guys from other formation to make it a fighting fit unit.