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_Anonymous_ said:
Disregarding what you've posted about the calibre of our senior echelons in our armed forces, what does this say about the calibre of our SF's? How does one explain a 1:1 kill ratio between highy trained & well equipped SF's & highly motivated & modestly armed insurgents? Is it a training issue or lack of material resources or something else ? Besides, this isn't the first of it's kind instance too? There have been plenty of such cases earlier too though the details escape me where the attrition faced by SF's in such encounters were unacceptably & embarrassingly high.
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I'd advise everyone to not read too much into this once instance. It's sadly the law of averages playing itself out. When you send out guys with equal firepower to that of the enemy day in and day out, and thus perpetuate a battle of equals, one of the days the enemy is going to get lucky.

If you see the video of the US Medal of honor recipient, late John A Chapman's team engagement, you'll find that even US SFs when faced with equally or better armed enemies tend to suffer quite high casualties. This is universal this is why you never fight the enemy on an equal ground. Do whatever must.you need to do to ensure there is never an equal battle. That's what US strives for every single enagagement. Overwhelming response, never proportionate response.

The very fact that despite years of fighting the enemy on roughly equal terms the kids ratios are 4:1 in our favour speaks to the capabilities of our SFs. But you cannot expect to under equip them, under support them, and then expect miracles from them Everytime. Law of averages will move everything towards the mean in time.
 
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DivineHeretic said:
Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.
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Shekatkar Committee Recommended the establishment of a Joint Services Warfare College for training for middle-level officers.
 
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Deathstar said:
True man , getting killed by a shithole worthless terrorists is a blot on an organisation like PARA SF.
Can it be like SSGs were part of that terrorists group??? They are surely.
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SSG are usually part of RAT Teams not Terrorist infiltration like this. They operate by doing hit and run jobs and Ambushes against Indian Patrols and Isolated Posts. These are likely a Group of Pakistani and Kashmiri terrorists trained in camps located KPK and Inner Pak Panjab.
 
Deathstar said:
True man , getting killed by a shithole worthless terrorists is a blot on an organisation like PARA SF.
Can it be like SSGs were part of that terrorists group??? They are surely.
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Multiple problems actually. First being that the army only has one special force PARA SF their main competency is for airborne operations, infiltration and reconnaissance. That's why they have heavy endurance test as requirement for selection and their operations have longer time from two to three days(look at the surgical strike the entire operation took 24 hours from infiltration to evac). Instead our leadership treats them like super infantry which they are not. This is the same problem what the Pakistani SSG experiences their specialisation is different but they are used for COIN and then they have huge losses the pathetic part being that most of the foreign exercise Pakistan only sends SSG while other participating armies send normal infantry battalions. The entire operation should be handled by RR in conjunction with J&K police but instead because the para sf guys need experience they replace the rr guys with Para sf and you see the result. The other being training and equipment. Their is not much difference between a para sf and a regular rr battalion or even a infantry battalion in terms of equipment. The only difference being the gun which is funny because sf guys should be leading in net centric warfare instead they must have been totally blind going in because you can't lose five elite soldiers unless they don't have any idea who and how many men you are fighting and where they are holding their position. I saw a joint exercise online with one para sf battalion and US sf and the thing which caught my eye was that weapon handling was outdated compared to ther modrn sf. Our sf guys use the standard techniques of using weapons . Even the way the sidearm was used felt exceptionally slow and lethargic also outdated. Similar sf's would use way faster techniques like c clamp and so on. The biggest problem is that lack of innovation and a reactive approach to things. This is not only limited to our military but entire government. '62 was the first case where that approach failed. Kargil was another one where it was tested but the pakistani establishment was itself in confusion so saved face. 27th Feb is another case where we continued to use our reactive approach. We knew that the Pakistanis had better air to air missiles since 2010 but their was no real effort by the air force or the establishment to outmatch them. It was only after the whole fiasco that the air force bought new missiles from Israel and Russia. This could have happened way before. We reacted only after our adversaries acted. The thing is our brass identifies it's shortcomings like they did during '62 but only acts on them when a major disaster hits. This reactive approach is entirely the problem thankfully Modi has atleast brought some change in way the entire establishment has been approaching issues.
 
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Keran operation: Special forces got into a hand to hand battle on the Line of Control

guys it was one of those days when luck had completely deserted them ,kindly go through the above article .what it reveals that despite taking first hit ,they managed to do the task.yes it raises question about the tactics when there would have been possibilities of using drones ,stand off weapon like rocket launcher etc those should have used .

regarding tactics i have seen many dead weight in the higher ranks of the indian army ,many of those belongs to those pappi zhappi gangs ,aggressive indian army mindset taking fight to the enemy camp is the need of the hour and i sure slowly but surely we are moving towards those goals
 
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DivineHeretic said:
Nope. Command problem. The enemy was identified and classified by live drone footage. It was easily possible to call in a drone strike, an airstrike, or a precision air burst artillery strike, or even bracket the area with 120mm mortar. Nearly all would have done the trick.

Instead command in it's infinite wisdom eschews such instruments of force because you know z hearts and minds. Apparently the use of such systems will turn the population hostile. Yes you read that right. Go figure.

Actually the problem begins way before. We have amongst the worst senior officers corps in the world, and by a large margin, the consequence of having a selection and training regimen designed to shortlist and build up junior officers. We have great Lts, Captains, Majors. Even colonels. But at Brigadier and above, baring a hand full, we fail to produce effective commanders.

Most of these commanders lack the flexibility, innovativeness and decisiveness that a large formation commander requires to be successful. So much so that when someone is actually decent on the job he inevitably becomes famous. General Sunderji for example. Gen. Vipin Rawat is another. Nothing extraordinary about them. Just.decent commanders who understands what large formation command means.
Nobody teaches the rest that. Staff college, NDC, higher command colleges are still based on learning the bureaucracy..by the book. Our senior commanders are best compared to the British Army of WW2. The British managed to change, learning from their experiences facing the vastly superior German office corps. Now the Indian army is more british than the British themselves. Incompetent at nearly everything except bureaucracy.

This is also why you find those weird articles by ex officers like Praveen Sahwney and Lt. gen . HS Panag. He wouldn't have made brigadier in a NaTO standard army or even the Russian army. The idea of an Indian initiative is anathema to them, they can't imagine it because they were never competent enough to think independently.
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Fully agree, I have repeatedly saying this. But just add to it, when the training is not well, the future officers will make wrong decisions due to lack of whatever you said.

lcafanboy said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1247067402333876225

Can someone confirm this....
If true. This is big....
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Nothing big even if it's true, he survived
 
safriz said:
I hear many Indian soldiers got killed in a gun battle with Kashmiri freedom fighters?
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More "freedom fighters"/terrorists died.
Another interesting phenomenon: I see "freedom fighters"/terrorists in single digits these days. What happened? All men in Pakistan are dead? BTW, the killing happened on LoC. So the so called "freedom fighters" were actually Pakistani.
 
safriz said:
I hear many Indian soldiers got killed in a gun battle with Kashmiri freedom fighters?
So the surgical strikes failed?
It's still happening?

What's so strange about a soldier getting injured in the line of duty?
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unprofessionalism among bureaucrats and military officers is the cause. The selection procedure in India selects less motivated people to handle Pakistan. All those people who are right now handling your desk, they know sh*t about Pakistan.They have no idea about your weakness, your psychology and action plan. They are more concerned about how much credit they get for doing nothing or whether they are in the good books of their seniors or their kids are getting into good college.
 
Saaho said:
Errr.... and why do you think it will be different for any other military or any other "us"?

Except, he did not.
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Well yes it is different for you when Arnab Gowswami shouts on the top of his voice on public news channel "Pakistanis must die" after every gun battle in Kashmir.
 
safriz said:
Well yes it is different for you when Arnab Gowswami shouts on the top of his voice on public news channel "Pakistanis must die" after every gun battle in Kashmir.
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Thats true. Pakistanis must die is the sentiment echoed in India. So is in Pakistan, each time a new change is made in Kashmir. You can hear all Pakistani channel and Zaid Hamid crying "Death of Indian Blah Blah Blah".

Or each time one more bomb goes off in Quetta, you can hear the same statement again.
 
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