LOC Flare up: Related news and Discussions

[BlackOpsIndia]

To all those talking about Artillery and UCAV to some extent, how will you engage 5 people on run with artillery? That too in the hilly terrain?

Again with UCAV you can have target in sight when they are in Middle East or Baloochistan, in middle of desert, when the target is merging with snow and hill and trees how will you target?

And someone said set up LMG, you don't even know where they are where will you set up?

Do you think those PARA pursuing them on foot did not have UAV input to track them, yet they couldn't pin point them. I don't see much option with kind of terrain without putting boots on ground. Maybe attack helicopter could be another option, there is no easy sure shot option here.

 

[randomradio]

To all those talking about Artillery and UCAV to some extent, how will you engage 5 people on run with artillery? That too in the hilly terrain?

Nobody is always on the run. There will have been plenty of times when they were exposed.

Again with UCAV you can have target in sight when they are in Middle East or Baloochistan, in middle of desert, when the target is merging with snow and hill and trees how will you target?

It's not such a big problem.

We have experience destroying trees and crows now anyway.

Yes, sure, MALE would do the surveillance and communicate back the coordinates to the Quad/Octocopter in order to takeoff from the closest tactical-UCAV base so as to reach the proximity to the target in the quickest possible time, feed NAG with accurate coordinates to lock on and zero in on to the target when in line of sight from 1-2 Kms

Many options can be considered once the target has been detected. I hope GoI looks into this judiciously. These people should be considered as foreigners and dealt with accordingly.

 

[nair]

Update on the Loss of 5 SF :

Militants were detected sun bathing by drone. Acquired by SATA & heliborne teams dispatched. The helis acquired them visually, could have killed them. But SOP prohibits use of armed hepters in CI & prohibits firing of weapon from onboard. Apparently Corps Cdr declined permission to engage in stand off range.

In the pic, the track is of militants. True to IA tradition offr was first out & dropped 300 meters to the left of the heptr. The shift in posn took place due to thick & loose snow. Offr got stuck, so an alternate was made, which is seen in pic. As they were following the trail, there was a nala which they did not realise and a slide took place. Firefight took place hand to hand. JCO was recovered KIA with a militant under him - killed by JCO literally with bare hand

 

[Saaho]

Militants were detected sun bathing by drone. Acquired by SATA & heliborne teams dispatched. The helis acquired them visually, could have killed them. But SOP prohibits use of armed hepters in CI & prohibits firing of weapon from onboard. Apparently Corps Cdr declined permission to engage in stand off range.

WTF ? why such a stupid SOP? And that stupid Corps Cdr shuold be shot dead.

 

[screambowl]

Update on the Loss of 5 SF :

Militants were detected sun bathing by drone. Acquired by SATA & heliborne teams dispatched. The helis acquired them visually, could have killed them. But SOP prohibits use of armed hepters in CI & prohibits firing of weapon from onboard. Apparently Corps Cdr declined permission to engage in stand off range.

In the pic, the track is of militants. True to IA tradition offr was first out & dropped 300 meters to the left of the heptr. The shift in posn took place due to thick & loose snow. Offr got stuck, so an alternate was made, which is seen in pic. As they were following the trail, there was a nala which they did not realise and a slide took place. Firefight took place hand to hand. JCO was recovered KIA with a militant under him - killed by JCO literally with bare hand

SF and sff guys are trained to bear bullet shots and still fight. In cold climate the survival rate goes higher due to less bleeding, thats one advantage they have over tangos. I always say, retire all 45+ Military jhandu officers. See their records and give them pink slip.

All units in J&K should be under those officers who are born and brought up in hills. They know what snow can do and what delay can cost.

WTF ? why such a stupid SOP? And that stupid Corps Cdr shuold be shot dead.

He is lt Gen BS Raju. he should go back to ooty and have coffee with dosa.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Guys, please hold your horses. You can not have luck in your favour always. It was one bad day when luck was against our guys. Such things do happen.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Guys, please hold your horses. You can not have luck in your favour always. It was one bad day when luck was against our guys. Such things do happen.

Sir ji , The Soldiers serving in Siachen are having the best experience in Operating in such heavy snow

What I have seen on TV and read is that
They use Ropes which are tied to all soldiers and walk in a Straight line
So that any one loosing his balance is quickly held by the other soldiers

Secondly while Para dropping from helicopters , they first throw a Heavy load to see whether snow is firm or Not and only then others start jumping out

This operation was clearly " pushed and rushed " by the top brass most likely Corps Commander

Several years ago in Keran sector there was a much larger operation during Gen Bikram Singh's time

They proceeded cautiously and Slowly to avoid Indian casualties

Some 40 terrorists were pinned down over a large area for more than 10 days

Keran operations not Kargil repeat: Army chief - The Statesman

An ambitious ploy in the heights

 

[sid4587]

I think using UCAVs is costly, should use Attack Helis.

heard so much about LCH breaking all the altitude records but looks like it is of no use.....

 

[nair]

WTF ? why such a stupid SOP? And that stupid Corps Cdr shuold be shot dead.

Firing LMG or other weapons from heptors would be considered gunships and we are not supposed to use air power against militants/terrorists..... Thats the SOP..... If this was allowed we could have saved lot of CRPF men in red corridors.....

 

[Hellfire]

Sir ji , The Soldiers serving in Siachen are having the best experience in Operating in such heavy snow

Nope. All troops along the High altitude regions have similar experience. Also, Siachen is relatively hard ice due to being a glacier, until and unless fresh snowfall takes place. This area is bereft of snow with smooth hills and broader valleys with less steep inclines.

What I have seen on TV and read is that
They use Ropes which are tied to all soldiers and walk in a Straight line
So that any one loosing his balance is quickly held by the other soldiers

That is because of crevasses opening up randomly. I personally explored about 5 of the 97 new crevasses (by falling into them, held safely by the rope line) which were opening up in August as I was deinducting. This was within a two km stretch along the region of maximal physical stress on the glacier as it dipped down. Some crevasse would open by 5 to 10 feet in one go. Some even greater.

Secondly while Para dropping from helicopters , they first throw a Heavy load to see whether snow is firm or Not and only then others start jumping out

This was heli insertion, not a para drop,

 

[Hellfire]

SF and sff guys are trained to bear bullet shots and still fight

In cold climate the survival rate goes higher due to less bleeding, thats one advantage they have over tangos.

Really? What physiology is that? I am keen on discussing this one.

I always say, retire all 45+ Military jhandu officers. See their records and give them pink slip.

No 45 yr old was involved directly in operation. Mind you, the team on the ground had flexibility in terms of being able to take an assessment for themselves. Once they were off the heli, there was no one to control their moves.

All units in J&K should be under those officers who are born and brought up in hills. They know what snow can do and what delay can cost.

 

[Hellfire]

WTF ? why such a stupid SOP? And that stupid Corps Cdr shuold be shot dead.

Because we have politicians and bureaucrats who do not know the front end of a rifle from its rear and decide the policy directive.

 

[Hellfire]

To all those talking about Artillery and UCAV to some extent, how will you engage 5 people on run with artillery? That too in the hilly terrain?

8 to 10 feet of accumulated snow? Nah .. not exactly easy to walk on, leave alone run.

Again with UCAV you can have target in sight when they are in Middle East or Baloochistan, in middle of desert, when the target is merging with snow and hill and trees how will you target?

Thermal Imagers.

Do you think those PARA pursuing them on foot did not have UAV input to track them, yet they couldn't pin point them.

They were having no input being provided. Tracks in snow were enough. Very easy to follow. I would daresay, even a blind can follow. See the pic, the tracks in the photograph are militant tracks.

 

[Hellfire]

Also, NATO and particularly US ops in the middle east have always been supported with overwhelming response even to take down 5 tangos while here we sent very few commandos to tackle unknown number of hostiles in extremely harsh weather and terrain, completely blind with no idea who they're dealing with.

Not true.

The worst part is even elite SOF units are wearing conventional camo and gear where in they should be using a snow camo

What is the range of detection for our jungle pattern camo in forested and snow bound area with naked eye? Take a guess.

 

[Hellfire]

@Falcon

Can't the govt/army allow selective use of airpower in areas which are desolate and devoid of any civilians?

When the tangos were first detected by the UAV, the same UAV could have wiped them out at that moment. If the UAV isn't weaponised, then a weaponised UCAV could have been brought in.

Nothing stopped the Commander from executing a stand off hit using airborne weapons .. based off the helicopter in terms of use of sniper/assault rifle from air.

 

[Hellfire]

We don't have any weaponised ucav's. All are uav's are made for surveillance. Even the predator drones we ordered are for surveillance . IA needs to reanalyse it's threat assessment

Okay.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Okay.

Sir ji , the problem that is hurting those of us who care for our soldiers lives is this

The Indian STATE is on the one hand pushing our best soldiers on reckless missions just for PR and photo opportunities

And on the other hand the same Indian state is pampering these Tablighi guys who have nearly wasted all efforts for
Controlling Corona epidemic

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I think it's time that just like there is a difference between a local picking up gun vs those illegally crossing into our territory. The SOPs need to be tweaked. No air power use in valleys and forests , ok. But atleast we can start by giving a go ahead to use all assets which the Army might have to stop the incursion at all costs.

Kadi Ninda doesn't has someone like his son serving there, so obviously he's never gonna understand. And our discussion is futile.

 

[zapper]

Not true

The news articles said only 2 teams were deployed. Unlike regular units, SOF has fewer operatives per team

What is the range of detection for our jungle pattern camo in forested and snow bound area with naked eye? Take a guess

Should vary to a large extent between both

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

But SOP prohibits use of armed hepters in CI & prohibits firing of weapon from onboard. Apparently Corps Cdr declined permission to engage in stand off range

Combined this with Su30 not engaging targets even when fired upon by intruding enemy. And rich tradition of giving back body of terrorists for large funerals.

I am in just awe of our planners. This is what planning looks like, brilliant, sophisticated, outstanding.