Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Innominate]

NO.
E-Virus Sounds like Improved EA/EW capability, Which is being Glorified.

There's a difference

What is Difference between EA/EW & Cyber capability?

It has become relatively commonplace in policy and military circles for the term ‘cyber’ to be attached to lists of both threats to and enablers for traditional airpower capabilities. Cyberweapons are without doubt an important tool in warfare, espionage, and deterrence. The potential attack surface against which they can be employed is increasing rapidly as ever more of the fabric of society becomes digitized and network-enabled. However, the tempo and nature of the processes by which military-grade cyber capabilities can be developed and deployed are regularly misunderstood in non-specialist circles. Confusion over where the boundaries lie between offensive electronic warfare and cyber capabilities can further distort public discussions of how these important capabilities fit into conventional military operations, and the application of airpower, in particular.

Broadly, the fundamental dividing line between electronic warfare (EW) and cyber is that where offensive EW capabilities are designed to interact with hostile systems using electromagnetic energy emissions, offensive cyber capabilities are designed to interact with hostile systems using data in the form of code. In practice, the boundaries between the two spheres of operations are often somewhat blurred. This is especially true as an increasing number of platforms such as the US Navy’s EA-18G Growler and the F-35 Lightning II are fielded with systems and sensors which can potentially interact with enemy systems using both EW and cyber techniques, and in some cases transition quickly from one to the other in flight.

There are also similarities in that designing effective military EW and cyber capabilities require a detailed understanding of the target systems or networks, which must be refreshed frequently in order to remain relevant. However, the timescales involved in developing electronic attack capabilities and offensive cyber capabilities against military systems are very different. This is because of how cyberattacks work.

A military cyberattack functions, in essence, by the accessing, alteration, or deletion of data held within a hostile network. This is done in the virtual domain so as to achieve an effect in the real world. As such, a cyberattack can serve a wide range of purposes depending on what data is being accessed and what its intended function is within its host network and/or system. Effects of a successful attack range from gaining detailed intelligence on how threat systems work, preventing a target system from performing its function correctly, temporarily disabling key functions, or even causing it to malfunction in such a way as to cause physical damage.

The Truth About Cyber Warfare's Impact On Airpower

There's a lot of bad info out there about how the cyber and aerial domains of warfare will converge. Here's the reality, for better or worse.

www.thedrive.com

 

[randomradio]

So it has superior AG capabilities because it can penetrate IADS at high altitude, IADS with bigger and far more powerful antennas, but somehow against J-20s you know nothing about with much smaller and far less powerful antennas the F-35 will lose?

Penetrating IADS, not yet though, and attacking targets on the ground is what the F-35 has been designed for. The J-20 is an ASF. Even with inferior stealth, the J-20 will easily defeat the F-35 in air combat.

Let me put it this way. The F-35A maxes out at 30T and carries a single 200KN engine, possibly upgraded to 230-40KN at best by 2030. Otoh, the J-20 probably maxes out at 33T, but will soon carry 2 engines with a combined power of anywhere between 360-400KN, they have hinted at it being more. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Both jets are not even in the same class.

Simply put, if the F-22 fails to defeat the J-20, then the entire F-35 fleet becomes irrelevant. It cannot defeat the J-20 on its own. It's not designed to do that.

There is a reason why the Brits, Japanese and Turks started their own ASF programs even though they bought the F-35.

Oh, btw, the J-20 has bigger sensors. It's in the F-22's class.

 

[randomradio]

A Swiss friend said:
With the F-35, you are being offered to buy tomorrow's aircraft today.
It would be perfect if there were not the risk that we would be delivered yesterday's version the day after tomorrow.

Is it any surprise the Pentagon has still not cleared it for full production?

 

[randomradio]

Lol you too? Closer to what truth? We all have access to what he has access to when it comes to info of the J-20.

There's a lot of stuff from the Chinese side that does not trickle down to English media. So, no, unless you actively look for sources, you only have access to Western propaganda, not actual news. Even Indian experts have become victims of such propaganda.

News from Chinese twitter, forums and even interviews of Chinese experts rarely show up in English.

US Generals have access to information of the J-20 that non of us in here have access to so when they let their guard down and accidently reveal how they feel about the J-20 I put more credence in what they say.

They have already started admitting the J-20 is a serious threat. Their hope was the new engine would be delayed, but that dream was crushed recently.

US generals have begun to admit that deterrence has failed. The Chinese have even begun preparing their civilian populace for war as of last year, with both extremely ridiculous levels of propaganda, as well as setting up free food canteens across many cities. The food canteens are a sign of preparing for war. New laws have been enacted as of last year for martial law as well as creating combat reserves from civilians, ie a more strict form of the US draft. Chinese cities across Taiwan have created apps that show civilians the nearest bomb shelter among thousands that have been set up. Even Chinese public transportation now carry multiple armed police personnel at all times.

Examples:

They are basically rehearsing for martial law. In every city the police are carrying out public drills in typical commie style to intimidate the populace.

China orders construction of state-run canteens in self-contained community hubs

Local one-stop shop services will boost state control over food supply, and could be linked to war planning.

www.rfa.org

Local one-stop shop services will boost state control over food supply, and could be linked to war planning.

The ministries of housing and civil affairs have ordered residential communities in pilot areas to build self-contained service depots in residential compounds offering convenience stores, vegetable stalls, state-run canteens, mail and express delivery service facilities, hair salons, laundry shops, pharmacies, maintenance points, and housekeeping services.

If rolled out nationwide, the move would effectively make it far easier to confine people to their homes, whether due to Chinese leader Xi Jinping's zero-COVID policy or other national contingencies like war, natural disaster or civil unrest.

You don't see such things in normal English media, it's all brought to us by enthusiasts across the Great Firewall. The same with the J-20, you don't see news about it in English, it's all in Chinese. Only a little bit comes across in English. Pretty much all of the J-20 news comes out of Chinese forums, that Chinese insiders leak deliberately. Due to problems with authenticity, it's not published by professional media. In fact, even Western intelligence rely on Chinese social media to collect information.

So, no, unless you are actively hunting for news, you have very little idea about China, and the Chinese have deliberately kept it that way.

 

[zinswinsin]

They have the naval forces for the task. What they lacked earlier was the ability to take the air, now they do.

The USN is gonna struggle against PLAN in a Taiwan war due to the distances involved. The entire island is within rocket artillery range of the PLA. I have no clue what the USN is capable of doing to stop that.

Nothing. Taiwan is a sponge, and quite irrelevant to the fate of the war.

If Taiwan repels the invasion, but the USN loses the naval battle, Taiwan loses.

If Taiwan fails to repel the invasion, but the USN wins the naval battle, Taiwan wins.

Obviously the ideal scenario is Taiwan repels the invasion and USN wins the naval battle.

IMO, the best strategy is to harden Taiwan, focus on the air conflict outside of Japan along with decisive naval battle, but first trying to attrit the PLAN through long range strikes. The home base advantage is true for China, but it gives more space for the US to attack the PLAN while they're still hemmed in the first island chain. 1000km missles for B-52, with 200km missiles for B-21 and F-35, PRSM all over the place.

 

[randomradio]

Nothing. Taiwan is a sponge, and quite irrelevant to the fate of the war.

If Taiwan repels the invasion, but the USN loses the naval battle, Taiwan loses.

If Taiwan fails to repel the invasion, but the USN wins the naval battle, Taiwan wins.

Obviously the ideal scenario is Taiwan repels the invasion and USN wins the naval battle.

I don't know what you mean by the USN winning. Regardless of whether the USN/USAF win, as long as the Chinese create a lodgement in Taiwan, ie gain a foothold that would allow more troops to come in, then it's over for Taiwan, possibly even the allied forces trapped on the island, who will either be killed or taken prisoner for negotiations. Both PLAAF and PLAN can lose their battles and China could still win. The victory condition is set in stone here. Whoever controls Taiwan in the end wins.

The navies and air forces of both sides merely have supporting roles. It's the ground forces that have to win. Both the US and Taiwan have settled on the porcupine defence strategy and that's ground-forces specific.

IMO, the best strategy is to harden Taiwan, focus on the air conflict outside of Japan along with decisive naval battle, but first trying to attrit the PLAN through long range strikes. The home base advantage is true for China, but it gives more space for the US to attack the PLAN while they're still hemmed in the first island chain. 1000km missles for B-52, with 200km missiles for B-21 and F-35, PRSM all over the place.

In terms of long range fires, the Chinese have both the US and Japan beat. Plus the Chinese have lesser targets to hit in comparison. It's just a few islands versus the entire Chinese mainland. But yeah, and 2 missile families come to mind. The JASSM family and Taiwan's HF family. The JASSM can hit PLAN in their bases and ports while short range HF series can make short work of whatever ships are caught in the Taiwan Strait. The JASSMs would be delivered by bombers.

What Taiwan needs is allied troops presence, both American and Japanese. And lots and lots of ammo. Once war starts, it will be practically impossible to supply ammo and weapons to Taiwan. The same with reinforcements. So whatever Taiwan has at the start is what they are gonna have to fight with. While their inventory is quite sizable, it's unclear if it's gonna be enough.

So--

Stockpiling US arms in Taiwan a vital move - Taipei Times

Bringing Taiwan to the World and the World to Taiwan

www.taipeitimes.com

Right now, the US and Japanese are working on increase stockpiles outside Taiwan so it can all be supplied before start of war. Of course, that could include stationing their troops as well. The Pinoys were making a lot of noise about it though, 'cause they suddenly realised they are gonna get dragged into the war too.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Only country that can thwart China is India. US knows this too. That's why they sent B-1Bs here to send a subtle message to the Chinese that a 2-front war simultaneously against them is also possible. China fears this scenario. So they would make sure that India stays out when they start their move on Taiwan.

 

[Innominate]

Only country that can thwart China is India. US knows this too. That's why they sent B-1Bs here to send a subtle message to the Chinese that a 2-front war simultaneously against them is also possible. China fears this scenario. So they would make sure that India stays out when they start their move on Taiwan.

Dude the chicoms don't see you as their equal in the conventional military realm. Chicoms know an all out conventional war with US could cost them their navy and a huge percentage of their air force. Chicoms know if they keep the fighting localize in the Taiwan Strait the US won't hit them hard. They know their air bases and naval bases won't be touched and US will fight a defensive/no fly-zone over Taiwan.

Chicoms know they are in a pickle because they can also suffer major air craft loss in the air facing off against US fighters acting as no fly-zone enforcers over the Island while Taiwan can concentrate more on striking the mainland and ships.

US will have weeks warning of an impending attack on Taiwan and about a weeks warning that US bases will be targets during a Taiwan attack.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Dude the chicoms don't see you as their equal in the conventional military realm. Chicoms know an all out conventional war with US could cost them their navy and a huge percentage of their air force. Chicoms know if they keep the fighting localize in the Taiwan Strait the US won't hit them hard. They know their air bases and naval bases won't be touched and US will fight a defensive/no fly-zone over Taiwan.

Chicoms know they are in a pickle because they can also suffer major air craft loss in the air facing off against US fighters acting as no fly-zone enforcers over the Island while Taiwan can concentrate more on striking the mainland and ships.

US will have weeks warning of an impending attack on Taiwan and about a weeks warning that US bases will be targets during a Taiwan attack.

Such arrogance

You couldn't even defeat VietNam and think would defeat China in their background. Hopefully, US war planners are not like you and are aware of ground realities.

 

[Hydra]

Only country that can thwart China is India.

The chines troops occupied indian territory since 2020 wants to know your location.

 

[Hydra]

Such arrogance

You couldn't even defeat VietNam and think would defeat China in their background. Hopefully, US war planners are not like you and are aware of ground realities.

Same vietnam gave a bloody nose to Chinese, remember they did achieve this without any support from a two nuclear powers as they received during vietnam US war. You should not count outcomes of battle involving Afghanistan, Vietnam & Israel as a measure opponents capability to fight & win. These three countries will not lose war or long Battle.

 

[Innominate]

Such arrogance

You couldn't even defeat VietNam and think would defeat China in their background. Hopefully, US war planners are not like you and are aware of ground realities.

Truth hurts much? India isn't thwarting anything when it comes to the chicoms. Chicoms see you like you see Pakistan's conventional military.

BTW Vietnam ended when US bombed NV close to the stone age and to the negotiation table. Long story short NV and US agreed on a ceasefire and peace with both SV and NV existing. We told the South all US combat troops were leaving now that there's peace and it's up to you to keep your country and fight for it and when the final US combat troop left the North invaded. South didn't fight for their country too bad for them. US hurt the North so much that they recognized the South's regime as legitimate government.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Truth hurts much? India isn't thwarting anything when it comes to the chicoms. Chicoms see you like you see Pakistan's conventional military.

Wrong. India is a peer rival to China. Our land army is almost as big(and even bigger as per some reports) as their's. Our conventional firepower is also very close to China. One on one, India fears no nation in a conventional war. What we're worried about is 2/2.5 front war situation.

BTW Vietnam ended when US bombed NV close to the stone age and to the negotiation table. Long story short NV and US agreed on a ceasefire and peace with both SV and NV existing. We told the South all US combat troops were leaving now that there's peace and it's up to you to keep your country and fight for it and when the final US combat troop left the North invaded. South didn't fight for their country too bad for them. US hurt the North so much that they recognized the South's regime as legitimate government.

No brother, you LOST! Admit it:

What Went Wrong in Vietnam

The military historian Max Boot takes on the counter-insurgency maven Edward Lansdale.

www.newyorker.com

 

[Herciv]

In order to understand what makes me react in this article I remind you that there is one LRIP per year and that only the next two LRIPs have a firm price. I also remind that the ECU will be available only around 2028/2030 and that without ECU the TR3/block4 is null and void.

Belgian Defence Minister confirms delay in the delivery of the first F-35 fighter jets to the Belgian Air Force

Belgium's defence minister, Ludivine Dedonder, has confirmed that the US will be delivering only two F-35 fighter jets to Belgium this year instead of

www.aviation24.be

Belgian Defence Minister confirms delay in delivery of first F-35 fighters to Belgian Air Force

Belgian Defence Minister Ludivine Dedonder has confirmed that the US will only deliver two F-35 fighter jets to Belgium this year instead of the four originally planned. The total order of 34 aircraft, placed in 2018, is still expected to be finalised by 2030. Dedonder said the pandemic was the cause of the delay.

"The original delivery plan was to deliver the first four aircraft in the last quarter of 2023. Due to the impact of the covid crisis, an adjustment had to be made and the current delivery schedule now calls for two F-35s to be delivered in December of this year and two more in the first quarter of 2024," she told the House National Defence Committee.

Four to five F-35s a year will be delivered between 2024 and 2030, so all 34 aircraft should be delivered in 2030, according to the original delivery schedule, Dedonder said.

Lockheed Martin, the manufacturer of the F-35, began building the F-35A Lightning II for the Belgian Air Force in late 2022 on the Fort Worth, Texas, assembly line.



I remember that I provoked a lot of jeers in 2018 when I stated that the Belgian F-35 would be delivered in block3F mainly and that the block4 upgrade would cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Bon Plan]

it can learn!

It can learn to become supercruising ? Are you pulling my leg ?

 

[Bon Plan]

the problem for Rafale regarding the Gripen E is that the Gripen E can largely do what Rafale can

Once again : less range, less load, an immature weapon system, less jets sold (so what about a future road map if there are only 2 customers ? It was also a Rafale problem before 2015), CAATSA.
No, It can do 70 or 80% of the Rafale scope, not more.

In order to understand what makes me react in this article I remind you that there is one LRIP per year and that only the next two LRIPs have a firm price. I also remind that the ECU will be available only around 2028/2030 and that without ECU the TR3/block4 is null and void.

Belgian Defence Minister confirms delay in the delivery of the first F-35 fighter jets to the Belgian Air Force

Belgium's defence minister, Ludivine Dedonder, has confirmed that the US will be delivering only two F-35 fighter jets to Belgium this year instead of

www.aviation24.be

Belgian Defence Minister confirms delay in delivery of first F-35 fighters to Belgian Air Force

Belgian Defence Minister Ludivine Dedonder has confirmed that the US will only deliver two F-35 fighter jets to Belgium this year instead of the four originally planned. The total order of 34 aircraft, placed in 2018, is still expected to be finalised by 2030. Dedonder said the pandemic was the cause of the delay.

"The original delivery plan was to deliver the first four aircraft in the last quarter of 2023. Due to the impact of the covid crisis, an adjustment had to be made and the current delivery schedule now calls for two F-35s to be delivered in December of this year and two more in the first quarter of 2024," she told the House National Defence Committee.

Four to five F-35s a year will be delivered between 2024 and 2030, so all 34 aircraft should be delivered in 2030, according to the original delivery schedule, Dedonder said.

Lockheed Martin, the manufacturer of the F-35, began building the F-35A Lightning II for the Belgian Air Force in late 2022 on the Fort Worth, Texas, assembly line.



I remember that I provoked a lot of jeers in 2018 when I stated that the Belgian F-35 would be delivered in block3F mainly and that the block4 upgrade would cost an arm and a leg.

The begining of the reals problems.... LOL.
I just hope France not stupid enough to help with some Rafale flights as a stop gap. I expect the same (for problems and help from France) for Switzerland.

 

[Innominate]

Wrong. India is a peer rival to China. Our land army is almost as big(and even bigger as per some reports) as their's. Our conventional firepower is also very close to China. One on one, India fears no nation in a conventional war. What we're worried about is 2/2.5 front war situation.

Dude you sound like a Pakistani when he's told Pakistani conventional forces aren't equal to India's. Who cares about how big your land army is you won't be able to use a fraction of them in a conflict with chicoms. Your land army's quantity is only relevant against Pakistan since the borders are not all mountainous.

No brother, you LOST! Admit it:

What Went Wrong in Vietnam

The military historian Max Boot takes on the counter-insurgency maven Edward Lansdale.

www.newyorker.com

I like told your twin that is currently banned... stick to topics you know. Don't use other peoples article on politics of vietnam do the actual research on your own. Don't be lazy.


The United States, South Vietnam, Viet Cong and North Vietnam formally sign “An Agreement Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam” in Paris. Due to South Vietnam’s unwillingness to recognize the Viet Cong’s Provisional Revolutionary Government, all references to it were confined to a two-party version of the document signed by North Vietnam and the United States—the South Vietnamese were presented with a separate document that did not make reference to the Viet Cong government. This was part of Saigon’s long-time refusal to recognize the Viet Cong as a legitimate participant in the discussions to end the war.

The settlement included a cease-fire throughout Vietnam. In addition, the United States agreed to the withdrawal of all U.S. troops and advisors (totaling about 23,700) and the dismantling of all U.S. bases within 60 days. In return, the North Vietnamese agreed to release all U.S. and other prisoners of war.

Both sides agreed to the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Laos and Cambodia and the prohibition of bases in and troop movements through these countries. It was agreed that the DMZ at the 17th Parallel would remain a provisional dividing line, with eventual reunification of the country “through peaceful means.” An international control commission would be established made up of Canadians, Hungarians, Poles, and Indonesians, with 1,160 inspectors to supervise the agreement. According to the agreement, South Vietnamese President Nguyen Van Thieu would continue in office pending elections. Agreeing to “the South Vietnamese People’s right to self-determination,” the North Vietnamese said they would not initiate military movement across the DMZ and that there would be no use of force to reunify the country.

Footnote: The last U.S. serviceman to die in combat in Vietnam, Lt. Col. William B. Nolde, was killed by an artillery shell at An Loc, 60 miles northwest of Saigon, only 11 hours before the truce went into effect.

Paris Peace Accords signed | January 27, 1973 | HISTORY

The United States, South Vietnam, Viet Cong and North Vietnam formally sign “An Agreement Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam” in Paris. Due to South Vietnam’s unwillingness to recognize the Viet Cong’s Provisional Revolutionary Government, all references to it were confined to a...

www.history.com

North only invaded the South when all US combat troops were gone. The only reason why North agreed to peace was because Operation Linebacker II. US military didn't lose any battle they weren't there anymore when the North invaded.

The North experience in Operation Linebacker II what happens when the US military fights with its hands untied. The North was a week away from losing it all that's how brutal Linebacker II was.

 

[Optimist]

Dude you sound like a Pakistani when he's told Pakistani conventional forces aren't equal to India's.

I think there is a universal blindness. When it come to seeing the situation, without nationalistic, tribal pride.

Comparison of China and India Military Strengths (2024)

Comparison of two world military powers in side-by-side format.

www.globalfirepower.com

 

[Rajput Lion]

^^We are ahead of the Chinese in terms of Logistics and Land Power too.

@Innominate

You lost in Vietnam mate! No amount of your propaganda will ever change that. You sound like a Pakistani who believe they won all wars against India, despite their backside getting kicked by us, every single effin time

 

[Optimist]

^^We are ahead of the Chinese in terms of Logistics and Land Power too.

Of course you think you are. You think the people who do military assessments of countries, are obviously clueless. Only fanboys know the truth. Refer to point one of my post.