Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Herciv]

The real price of each flyaway F-35 in LRIP15, 16 17 is 84 millions US dollars without engines
382 for 32,5 billions dollars.
129 in LRIP15 without TR3 (N0001920C0009 P00016)
127 in LRIP15 with TR3 (N0001920C0009 P00019)
126 in LRIP15 with TR3 (N0001920C0009 P00026)

USAspending.gov (without LRIP 17 (P00026) and without TR3 UPDATE P00027 (?)) for 22,5 billions dollars.

You have to add N0001920C0009 P00021 to P00025 for 500 millions dollars (?)
You have to add N0001920C0009 P00026 7,8 billions dollars LRIP 17
You have to add 1,4 billions dollars for the TR3 update in LRIP16 and 17 (P00027 ? ??). Contracts for May 2, 2023

 

[Optimist]

This should be easy for you. How much is the recurring flyaway of the F35A with the engine?
I'll bookmark your answer. So when it is released we will see how far you are out. From past experience with your understanding on costings, I would guess by a lot.

 

[Herciv]

How much is the recurring flyaway of the F35A with the engine?

I can find it for LRIP14 but I have no contract number for f135 for LRIP15 to 17.

 

[Optimist]

I can find it for LRIP14 but I have no contract number for f135 for LRIP15 to 17.

I forget what 14 was, but add 7% to it.

Is this close to lot 14 + 7% $79m?
Bookmark this. lot 15 F35a recurring flyaway will be about $79m. From what I saw, I think it will come in under $80m. I allowed $9m for the engine

$30 Billion F-35 Deal Will See Prices Rise, Deliveries Dip | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Lockheed Martin and the Defense Department have reached a deal on Lots 15-17 of the F-35, with fewer jets and higher costs per plane.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Herciv]

I have it it is N0001920C0011 USAspending.gov contract.
currently at 5,1 billions dollars still in progress. We don't know how many engines have to be made.
5,1 /381 = 13 millions (in average).
But last add was made in january before the LRIP17 contract with LM. I think we have to wait a little to have a complete knowledge of the F135 price for LRIP15 16 and 17.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Don't believe this stuff, unless the French can tell you the exact angle and wavelength, it's all propaganda,

As per the French, Rafale's frontal clean RCS is of a sparrow and 10 times lower than Mirage-2000. So, 0.1m2 clean is NOT a propaganda but a FACT.

you believe the Su-57 is only 0.4m³, And does the Rafale have 0.1m³？

Su-57 is VLO from front. Which means -40dBsm.

Don't forget the Rafale is a plane from the 1980s

Rafale-C was redesigned over Rafale-A.

The best fourth - generation aircraft in my opinion is the F-15,

Rafale is not 4th gen but 4.5 gen. Both MKI and Rafale are much better than the Eagle.

Let's see, maybe the Meteor missile has a better inescapable zone than the PL 15,
But does this advantage really work? Rafale radar aperture itself is small, especially in the complex electromagnetic environment of the battlefield will further compress radar performance

Rafale's AESA radar range is good enough to guide Meteor till end game. Plus, with 3rd party guidance, AWACS or even ground based radars may guide Meteor to its max range.

WVR may have a bigger advantage, after all, Refale has a good t \ w and excellent aerodynamic design
More often, the an aircraft's performance does not determine anything. When there is no generational difference between the two aircraft, the number and support systems are more important

Against J-10C and J-20 with WS-10, yes. Against J-16, difficult to say. Flanker's lifting body and superb aerodynamics plus kinematics make it a vicious dogfighter despite its huge size.

 

[Optimist]

I have it it is the USAspending.gov contract.
currently at 5,1 billions dollars still in progress. We don't know how many engines have to be made.
5,1 /381 = 13 millions (in average)

As i said, I've seen your understanding on costings before. 2020 the F-35a engine was 8.77m ....I though the engine was cheaper and allowed 9m for 2024. I'll bump it to a high of 12m, make my guess under 82m now. Still a possible under 80m though.

Pratt and Whitney $320M Order for F-35 Engines - MilitaryLeak.COM

United Technologies Corp., Pratt and Whitney Engines, East Hartford, Connecticut, is awarded a $319,792,357 modification (P00018) to a previously awarded, firm-fixed-price, fixed-price-incentive-fee, cost-plus-fixed-fee, cost reimbursable contract (N00019-18-C-1021).

militaryleak.com

 

[Herciv]

lot 15 F35a recurring flyaway will be about $79m. From what I saw, I think it will come in under $80m. I allowed $9m for the engine

For the $9m for the F-35A I think it will be a little bit more around 11.
For the 79 million/F-35 , you don't take into account the TR3 contract update ( Contracts for May 2, 2023) 1,4 billions for LRIP16 and 17, or 126 +127 = 253 F-35 or 5,5 billions dollars for each F-35.

 

[Optimist]

Take this as my stock answer. "As i said, I've seen your understanding on costings before."
You are mistaken on your assumptions with TR3 development cost and how it relates to flyaway cost. That FMS will pay.

 

[LX1111]

Against J-10C and J-20 with WS-10, yes. Against J-16,

You didn't know that J 10C didn't start changing WS-10 until the fifth batch, did you?
J 16 all use WS-10 bar, and WS-10B has been to 13800KN,Plus, the M 88 has a maximum thrust of 7500 kN and a T / W of 8.5.

 

[LX1111]

Rafale's AESA radar range is good enough to guide Meteor till end game. Plus, with 3rd party guidance, AWACS or even ground based radars may guide Meteor to its max range

Are you kidding? The only thing that's compatible with theMeteor data link，I'm afraid only the Rafale，As for other AWACS and ground radars, forget it, India is not China,Money can't buy a modern army，As for the RBE 2 radar, you have to come up with specific data

 

[LX1111]

As per the French, Rafale's frontal clean RCS is of a sparrow and 10 times lower than Mirage-2000. So, 0.1m2 clean is NOT a propaganda but a FACT

As front friend said, the fuel pipe and IRST alone are much more than 0.1m ²

 

[LX1111]

Rafale is not 4th gen but 4.5 gen. Both MKI and Rafale are much better than the Eagle.

All 4.5 generation fighters are 4 generation improvements, nothing new, to be honest the F 15 has extremely high t / w and extremely low wing loads,Still a dangerous opponent, and as for MKI, T / W is probably the lowest in the entire Flanker family

 

[Optimist]

All 4.5 generation fighters are 4 generation improvements, nothing new, to be honest the F 15 has extremely high t / w and extremely low wing loads,Still a dangerous opponent, and as for MKI, T / W is probably the lowest in the entire Flanker family

The F-15sg he referred to has an AESA radar and Aim-120. The radar will out range the rafale and the aim-120 the mica. Better radar and missiles, do we really need to look further?
when the rafale has the meteor, the aim 260 will be out. The rafale also has a one way data link to the meteor. though the meteor has a 2 way data link that can't be used.

 

[Bon Plan]

Let's see, maybe the Meteor missile has a better inescapable zone than the PL 15,
But does this advantage really work? Rafale radar aperture itself is small, especially in the complex electromagnetic environment of the battlefield will further compress radar performance
WVR may have a bigger advantage, after all, Refale has a good t \ w and excellent aerodynamic design
More often, the an aircraft's performance does not determine anything. When there is no generational difference between the two aircraft, the number and support systems are more important

RBE2 PESA range is equal to RDY radar, ie 100 to 120km.
RBE2 AESA range is at least the double of the PESA one. It is why the UAE ordered it (it was their requirement).
Do the math.

 

[Lolwa]

The Typhoon should be able to, thanks to the EJ 200 engine and the long-range coupled canard configuration, the other two I doubt, especially the Rafale, A close-coupled aircraft with a very low slenderness ratio, plus there is no M 88-3 engine. Anyway, I highly doubt

You have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Herciv]

Take this as my stock answer. "As i said, I've seen your understanding on costings before."
You are mistaken on your assumptions with TR3 development cost and how it relates to flyaway cost. That FMS will pay.

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, is awarded a cost-plus-incentive-fee, cost-plus-fixed-fee not-to-exceed $1,439,135,764 undefinitized contract. This contract provides for the continued development of critical F-35 warfighting capabilities, to include Electronic Warfare Band 2/5 Radar Warning Receiver, Modernized Countermeasure Controller, Multi-ship Infrared Search and Track Increment 2, and Beyond Line of Sight communications, as well as supports required training and combat data systems development for Lots 16 and 17 production aircraft for the Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, Foreign Military Sales (FMS) customers, and non-Department of Defense (DOD) participants. Work will be performed in Fort Worth, Texas (60%); Nashua, New Hampshire (16%); Baltimore, Maryland (9%); Orlando, Florida (5.5%); Torrance, California (2%); San Diego, California (2%); El Segundo, California (2%); Northridge, California (1%); Clearwater, Florida (1%); Buffalo, New York (1%); and Tucson, Arizona (0.5%), and is expected to be completed in March 2028. Fiscal 2023 research, development, test, and evaluation (Navy) funds in the amount of $57,335,825; fiscal 2023 research, development, test, and evaluation Air Force) funds in the amount of $54,900,755; FMS customer funds in the amount of $565,817; and non-DOD participants funds in the amount of $30,558,644 will be obligated at the time of award, none‬ of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was not competitively procured pursuant to 10 U.S. Code 2304(c)(1). The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity (N0001923C0009).

Development or not this contract is attached to N0001923C0009 and is specific to LRIP16 and 17. It is clearly writen that every customers will paid for.

As front friend said, the fuel pipe and IRST alone are much more than 0.1m ²

Can you explain us how in a first question you ask for the angle and not here ? You simply don't understand how work HF and EW.

 

[Herciv]

As i said, I've seen your understanding on costings before.

So do I concerning your own understanding. But I give my sources and everyone here can make its own judgment. I was only trying to help you.

 

[Herciv]

Sources pls.....

https://www.ilmailuliitto.fi/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/rafale_finlande_13x18_1219_pap_v7.pdf

p4 : Mature Aircraft, Combat & Support Proven RAFALE is in-service since 2004 in the Navy, since 2006 in the French Air Force. Entry first, international coalitions, joint and allied exercises, small deployment for crisis management… able to fly 350 hours in a month, and up to 1000 flight hours in a year;

 

[Herciv]

Lol! And how is clean rafale is going to help us, by doing ISR?

Even a rafale can have a low or even a very low rcs. For example if the radar is above the rafale.
Then you also have to take into account the mission an the number of planes needed for the same mission. When often 2 rafales are enough 4 f-35 wouldn't be sufficient.

Now the best is to complement both planes. Like the australian using the french rafales as sweeper (first entry and last out) to help the f-35 and other planes ...