Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

The MKI is not underpowered. As an air superiority design which has not seen significant weight gain, it has more than sufficient thrust. It has pretty much the same rate of climb as the F-15C when you take into account fuel fraction. The F-15C's airframe is inferior to the MKI, for obvious reasons, being an older design. All other F-15 models like E and EX are much heavier and inferior to the MKI. Plus the MKI carries a lot more fuel. TVC provides a lot of advantages in saving fuel and reducing drag
I think you are talking nonsense about India. Do you want to see for yourself what you are writing
The F 15C climbs at 360M / s and the SU 27 at 301m / s,You're telling me that the Su 30MKI can beat the climb rate of the F 15 when it's 2 tons heavier than the Su 27?
 
I think you are talking nonsense about India. Do you want to see for yourself what you are writing
The F 15C climbs at 360M / s and the SU 27 at 301m / s,You're telling me that the Su 30MKI can beat the climb rate of the F 15 when it's 2 tons heavier than the Su 27?
Typhoon has better TWT ratio than F-15 and can climb much faster, but got mauled by Su-30MKI during exercise Indradhaush 2015 12:0 in WVR combat. Go figure...
 
The MKI's radar is hybrid-PESA. It works like a PESA during transmission, but during reception it works like an AESA, so it processes signals similar to AESA. But I agree that it's time to upgrade the MKI's radar. Although Bars is old, it's still effective against old jets like the F-16, J-10C and J-16
Indians always say that the N 011m radar has changed , but does anyone talk about the detection distance of N 011m being only 110KM?Did anyone tell you the antenna gain is only 36 dB?Did anyone tell you that PESA's pattern performance lags behind PD radar?Did anyone tell me you N 011m weighs 650KG?Deal with J 10C and J 16 only in a dream
Typhoon has better TWT ratio than F-15 and can climb much faster, but got mauled by Su-30MKI during exercise Indradhaush 2015 12:0 in WVR combat. Go figure...
Who reported the story except the Indian media?You can take out a Typhoon but you can't even take down a JF-17😂😂😂
 
Are you for real? That is an official 'unclassified' RMAF document. Empty weight is 17.8 tons and OEW/MEW with two pilots, gun ammo, hydraulic oil etc. is 18.4 tons. MKI/MKM uses lots of composite vs old Su-35(Su-27M) and its nose profile is smaller too. Thus despite 2-seat cockpit it weighs similarly at 18.4 tons.

Now, if you don't accept it then it's upto you. I've give you as 'official' source as official it can be
First, even at 18.4 tons, it weighs nearly two tons more than the Oh J-11B
Secondly, I don't think MKI can lose weight, a pilot's weight, add avionics weight, The only thing that got lighter after World War II was MiG 23MLU,MKI and SU 27M were born at a similar age, composite materials can not be applied to this extent
My data comes from the Sukhoi authorities
 
It's just a simple refinement with a new engine and avionics, like what happened with the F-16.

With the AIM-120C, the F-16 B52 without AESA will still be able to challenge the F-16 B60 with AESA. But if the J-10A isn't able to challenge the J-10C even with the same weapon, then it's a problem with the J-10A. Obviously, the J-10C is not a stealth jet. You can expect both the Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 and F-16 B52 to be able to challenge the J-10C in BVR combat.
From the first sentence you said it was wrong. F 16 Block 60 is no ordinary upgrade AESA
The rest is needless to say, pure nonsense
Do you believe that four J 10Cs can take out a Mirage 2000 squadron
If Rafale can be a stealth fighter, why can't J 10C
In this 4.5 generation fighter has long been popular era holding a few Rafale fighters, as a destructor is extremely ridiculous
 
I'm not saying Meteor is a bad missile in fact I've never said such a claim I'm just posting that the Aim-120D shot down a target breaking the longest range shot by US missile which was held by the Pheonix at a 126 miles. The aim-120d likely shot that target at 130+miles making its range equal to the Meteor's public range and for some reason Rafale fanboys lose their mind over this.

Watch this.... The D3's range supposed to be greater than the D so I reckon its range surpasses the Meteor? :D

Now they'll go nuts.
I know. for some reason they want to think that the meteor is the longest range missile. Even though it is still in testing for the rafale and is not fielded.

They are going to lose their minds when the SCIFiRE hypersonic arrive.
As of 2021, the missile is expected to enter service within 5 to 10 years
RAAF release: The new weapon will be a Mach 5-class precision strike missile that is propulsion-launched and powered by an air-breathing scramjet engine. It will be capable of being carried by tactical fighter aircraft such as the F/A-18F Super Hornet, EA-18G Growler and F-35A Lightning II, as well as the P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft.
 
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Typhoon has better TWT ratio than F-15 and can climb much faster, but got mauled by Su-30MKI during exercise Indradhaush 2015 12:0 in WVR combat. Go figure...
So it would also slap a rafale. Rafale losing guns dogfights to the typhoon are around. 30mki is the best india has, not the rafale anymore.
 
So it would also slap a rafale. Rafale losing guns dogfights to the typhoon are around. 30mki is the best india has, not the rafale anymore.
In dogfight MKI would destroy the Rafale more often than not(with HOBS or guns). But Rafale would destroy MKI in BVR. That's the crux of modern air combat. BVR>> WVR.

So, that makes Rafale our no. 1 fighter now by default. Rafale with Meteor combo is really dangerous.
 
First, even at 18.4 tons, it weighs nearly two tons more than the Oh J-11B
Secondly, I don't think MKI can lose weight, a pilot's weight, add avionics weight, The only thing that got lighter after World War II was MiG 23MLU,MKI and SU 27M were born at a similar age, composite materials can not be applied to this extent
My data comes from the Sukhoi authorities
Wrong. Chinese reduced weight of J-16 over Su-30 by adding composites. The first MKI had 6% of weight by composites and it was always planned to add more composites in later tranches. MKI's empty weight is just 17.8 tons. 18.4 tons is with 2 pilots, gun ammo and hydraulic oil etc. Plus Bars on MKI also had lighter electronics over Su-27M(Su-37), thus despite being twin seater, it weighs exactly as much as them.
 
Indians always say that the N 011m radar has changed , but does anyone talk about the detection distance of N 011m being only 110KM?Did anyone tell you the antenna gain is only 36 dB?Did anyone tell you that PESA's pattern performance lags behind PD radar?Did anyone tell me you N 011m weighs 650KG?Deal with J 10C and J 16 only in a dream
Bars has been updated multiple times. Despite being old, it can guide Astra 2( a very long range BVR) to its end. That tells us that it's still very effective. IAF also wanted to add Meteor which is a 300kms missile on to MKI, but MBDA denied. Still it tells us what IAF thinks about max range of Bars radar.
Who reported the story except the Indian media?You can take out a Typhoon but you can't even take down a JF-17😂😂😂
The RAF never denied it. So it confirms that MKI destroyed Typhoon 12:0 in dogfight. It will do the same to your J-20/J-16/J-10 if they dare engage it in WVR.
 
MKI's empty weight is just 17.8 tons. 18.4 tons is with 2 pilots, gun ammo and hydraulic oil etc. Plus Bars on MKI also had lighter electronics over Su-27M(Su-37),
18.4t is empty weight,17.8t this stat makes no sense,I'm comparing is empty weight,6% is not high, J-11B alone is 9%.As for J 16, no public data currently available
 
Bars has been updated multiple times. Despite being old, it can guide Astra 2( a very long range BVR) to its end. That tells us that it's still very effective. IAF also wanted to add Meteor which is a 300kms missile on to MKI, but MBDA denied. Still it tells us what IAF thinks about max range of Bars radar.
IMG_20230506_113531.jpg

Some of the data have been published in Russia, so you don't have to guess, The average power of the N 011 is only 1.2KW, and the Russian radar layout would be a huge waste of power
The RAF never denied it. So it confirms that MKI destroyed Typhoon 12:0 in dogfight. It will do the same to your J-20/J-16/J-10 if they dare engage it in WVR
Because this in itself is the Indian's own fantasy, of course the British will not care you
The RAF never denied it. So it confirms that MKI destroyed Typhoon 12:0 in dogfight. It will do the same to your J-20/J-16/J-10 if they dare engage it in WVR
Because this in itself is the Indian's own fantasy, of course the British will not care you
 
@randomradio

There is some internet chatter that US is offering F-35s directly under gov to gov deal for MRFA. That is also to counter similar offer made by France. I always myself thought MRFA was a direct shoot between Rafale and F-35!

All sides make an offer for GTG separate from the main tender. We should not let anything stop MRFA. If F-35s are to be bought, it has to be separate from MRFA.

The F-35 is not participating in MRFA because of ToT requirements and Russian participation.

Which plane should be better for us to face PLAAF in your opinion?

Nothing viable this decade. The next decade, it will have to be Rafale F5 + AMCA combo. If a stopgap purchase of 2 squadrons of Su-57M or F-35 is possible, that would be fine too. The best option would be 2 squadrons of NGAD, but that's just a dream.
 
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I think you are talking nonsense about India. Do you want to see for yourself what you are writing
The F 15C climbs at 360M / s and the SU 27 at 301m / s,You're telling me that the Su 30MKI can beat the climb rate of the F 15 when it's 2 tons heavier than the Su 27?

The F-15C and Su-30MKI do 300+ m/s with combat load.

The F-15C's highest figure for climb is 342m/s, and it was achieved with a demilitarised aircraft.

As long as the jet as a TWR of above 1 and is a low drag airframe, it will have excellent climb. Weight is only relative to an aircraft's own design. The F-22 is heavier than both F-15C and Su-27, but it climbs faster than both. Su-30MKI was redesigned quite a bit for high performance.

The fastest climber among demilitarised planes is the Su-27.


While the F-15C has higher TWR at the same fuel fraction, the Flanker compensates for the difference with a better airframe design. What also give the Flanker an advantage is it can use its higher fuel load to use the afterburner more often, whereas the F-15C gets it higher TWR at the cost of rapid burning of its fuel, so it can't sustain combat as long as the Flanker. Also, the Flanker has better fuel efficiency than the F-15C when using afterburner.
 
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Indians always say that the N 011m radar has changed , but does anyone talk about the detection distance of N 011m being only 110KM?Did anyone tell you the antenna gain is only 36 dB?Did anyone tell you that PESA's pattern performance lags behind PD radar?Did anyone tell me you N 011m weighs 650KG?Deal with J 10C and J 16 only in a dream

You have some wrong information there. The detection range of Bars is at least twice that against small targets and 3 times that against Flanker class targets. And this is from 2007. The radar is heavy, but I don't see how that makes a difference.
 
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From the first sentence you said it was wrong. F 16 Block 60 is no ordinary upgrade AESA

It's not special. The IAF considers it 3rd gen.

According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

And he's talking about the F-16 B70, not even B60. Just 'cause you make some minor changes doesn't mean it's a better jet.

Do you believe that four J 10Cs can take out a Mirage 2000 squadron

Once PLAAF fights the M2000, they will understand. French jets don't fight like other jets.

If Rafale can be a stealth fighter, why can't J 10C

Sure. If you have the hardware for it, and bring out more information publicly. For example, the French say the Rafale's RCS is that of a sparrow without payload, the same as the F-22. Will some Chinese official make a similar public claim?

In this 4.5 generation fighter has long been popular era holding a few Rafale fighters, as a destructor is extremely ridiculous

What if it is as stealthy as the F-22/F-35? Rafale's stealth can be constantly improved because it's electronic.

The IAF doesn't call it a next gen jet for no reason.
 
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I know. for some reason they want to think that the meteor is the longest range missile.

Longest range is a misnomer. What's more important is how quickly does a missile lose its effectiveness once launched. Ramjet does pretty well on that count. It cruises slower than solid rocket, thereby has a lower heat signature, and then increases its speed at anytime during transit, which allows it to demonstrate better flight characteristics when making a kill.

Simply put the Meteor generates the best efficiency at the longest range with a higher kill probability.
 
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