Man Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM) Developments : Updates & Discussions

[Ashwin]

My issue with DRDO and Indian MIC is usually that they tend to do a lot of "science projects" but their products seldom hit the market.

Take Nag. It started in 1988 and till date there is almost nothing to show. I am not sure if there is a single missile system (NAMICA and missiles) deployed with Indian Army.

Contrast this with Spike, its design started in late 1970s. Some variants entered production in 1980s.

Right now we are talking about SANT, Nag MPATGAM, HELINA and NAMICA mounted version. Its like work on NAG Mk2 has started and first one has been tested without even HELINA (I guess now called Dhruvastra) entering production.

This is not a new revelation to you, is it? We have been discussing the competence of DRDO for far too long. The point is, its changing drastically. We now have all the testing infrastructure, industry maturity, and best of all a long trial and error experience. They demonstrated the interception of a target moving at 7.4km/sec on exo-atmospheric with an accuracy of 10cm. And made a tiktok sized video of interception for the naysayers. Can you fathom how big of a technical challenge it is? And they made it using parts of already proven missiles which took three decades of grudging BM/SAM development. Talking about speed, the entire project took 31 months !. And you think they can't develop contemporary ATGMs?

In my opinion, we have now entered the second stage of Indian missile development. Where everything seems fast-tracked because of the overall maturity of the ecosystem. Even some SMBs are coming up with their own ATGMS and SAMs!. Just look at the QRSAM development story, In less than 3 years it has been successfully tested 8 times !. That's unheard of.

Here is a brief comparison between Spike development and Indian Nag development :

Main Source

Dead Tanks: Why Israel's Spike Missile Is so Good

Key point: Ever since it was first used, the Spike missile has made its name known. Here’s why it outclasses so many other anti-tank systems. On October 6, 1973, over eight hundred tanks from three mechanized infantry divisions poured over the Israeli border into the Golan Heights. The sheer...

nationalinterest.org

Spike :
1. Need Felt after 1973 conflict with tank columns rolling onto Israel.
2. By 1981 Tammuz (Spike-NLOS) was operational with Pereh vehicle. This was first surface to surface use of TV-Guided missile. It was so successful that even UK, Germany and South Korea imported it in both ATGM and anti artillery roles.

Nag:
1. Design started in 1988. First tested in 1990.
2. Till date neither Nag nor NAMICA has entered production. NO variant of Nag (AFAIK) are operational. No export made, obviously.

Spike :
1. In 1992, Spike MR was tested for first time.
2. In 2000, Spike MR was exported to Finland.

Nag :
1. In 2018, MPATAGM was tested.
2. Devil knows when it will see any induction. Lets not even talk about export.

Spike:
1. In 2010, Spike ER was imported by italy for use on A129 helicopters.

Helina:
2. Till 2020, HELINA/Dhruvastra is still not operational after devil knows how many tests. HELINA's range is also less than Spike.

Your comparison with Israel only shows your naivety on how the world works. Israel is a tiny rich state with the backing of a lone superpower. Their everyday survival depends on having the best military technology. We had/have far bigger or basic problems like feeding the population. Our military projects used to run on a shoestring budget with leftover talent. Passing judgment can be self-fulfilling but once in awhile look at the good side.

 

[Saaho]

Israel is a tiny rich state with the backing of a lone superpower.

Israel's GDP is 300 billion dollars. A third of that is Government revenue. Meaning about 100 billion dollars.

Indian Government's revenue is about 400 billion dollars.

Rich and poor is a god damn lie. Indian government is god damn rich and rules over a huge number of really poor people.

Its sheer incompetence.

We had/have far bigger or basic problems like feeding the population.

I highly doubt Indian government "feeds" people.

Our military projects used to run on a shoestring budget with leftover talent.

False again. As compared to Israel, we have a much larger government revenue, four times larger, our GDP is almost 10 times. SIPRI estimates that Israel spends about 5.3% of its GDP in defence. We spend 1.9% of our GDP in defence. Even with that we spend 2.5-3 times that of Israel in defence.

With so much money we push into defence, it is a weird thing that we are not even able to produce a single working ATGM in 32 years.

Coming to access to US technology, how do you think Israel gets it? Must be doing something right so US gives them tech. know how to replace US sold weapons in their own inventory and to produce systems that compete with US in export market. Spike MR gives jevlin a tough competition.

Passing judgment can be self-fulfilling but once in awhile look at the good side.

Well, do you expect Indian defence industry to be any better than government own enterprises like BSNL? or ITI? or PWD? You know the quality of work done by them either directly or using contractor.

I have a good enough reason to pass judgement on these incompetent moron who run our MIC. They are overcharging us and not delivering any value.

 

[Ashwin]

Shri Rajnath Singh also inaugurated the Augmented Environmental Test facility. Transfer of Technology for TRBL-developed warhead for Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM) Mk-II was handed over to Economic Explosives Limited, Nagpur on the occasion.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh visits Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory of DRDO in Chandigarh

Key Highlights: Products developed by TBRL, such as Multi-Mode Hand Grenade, reflect Governmen

pib.gov.in

 

[Kalkioftoday]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1453705669513674759

 

[Lolwa]

Till 2020, HELINA/Dhruvastra is still not operational after devil knows how many tests. HELINA's range is also less than Spike.

Spike Nlos is the best ATGM in its class. HELINA is closer to the pars 3,hj12,hell fire,Umtas and spike lr.
Sant is direct competitor and only three missiles out perform it in terms of range.
spike Nlos 25km
Brimstone 20-60km
Serbian ALAS 25-60km

And only Brimstone is air to surface capable in all three.

 

[screambowl]

With so much money we push into defence, it is a weird thing that we are not even able to produce a single working ATGM in 32 years.

Because

In 2021-22, expenditure on salaries and pensions
forms the largest portion of the defence budget (Rs
2,58,628 crore, 54% of the defence budget).

Capital outlay of Rs 1,28,150 crore, forms 27% of the
defence budget.

The remaining allocation is towards
stores (maintenance of equipment), border roads,
research, and administrative expenses

https://prsindia.org/files/budget/budget_parliament/2021/Defence%20DFG%20Analysis%202021-22.pdf

Institute for Policy Research Studies

Even SIPRI has confirmed this. I saw it on their website What else do you expect this why its taking 32 years.

 

[Saaho]

Because

https://prsindia.org/files/budget/budget_parliament/2021/Defence%20DFG%20Analysis%202021-22.pdf

Institute for Policy Research Studies

Even SIPRI has confirmed this. I saw it on their website What else do you expect this why its taking 32 years.

Thats 17 billion usd in capital allocation.

Israel's entire defence budget is 20 billion. They have one of the world's best anti tank missile all made in Israel. And it did not take them this long.
South Africa has a very able ATGM since 1987 and in 2013 made a man portable one too. Their total defence budget is 4 billion dollars.

The damn Nag missile has been under development since 1988 and got inducted in 2018... WTF?

 

[Arpit]

Thats 17 billion usd in capital allocation.

Israel's entire defence budget is 20 billion. They have one of the world's best anti tank missile all made in Israel. And it did not take them this long.
South Africa has a very able ATGM since 1987 and in 2013 made a man portable one too. Their total defence budget is 4 billion dollars.

The damn Nag missile has been under development since 1988 and got inducted in 2018... WTF?

I am seeing a lot of rhetoric, what are you actually trying to say?

Are you comparing the defense budget and ATGMs? What are you actually trying to say? Seriously.

 

[jetray]

Thats 17 billion usd in capital allocation.

Israel's entire defence budget is 20 billion. They have one of the world's best anti tank missile all made in Israel. And it did not take them this long.
South Africa has a very able ATGM since 1987 and in 2013 made a man portable one too. Their total defence budget is 4 billion dollars.

The damn Nag missile has been under development since 1988 and got inducted in 2018... WTF?

The company which manufactures spike was no better than DRDO until they made it a limited company. Solution is quite obvious, lunches with no accountability has to end, either they survive delivering stuff or perish stagnating

well we might be just better than the taliban,

Iran Unveils Own Copy Of Israeli Spike Anti-Tank Guided Missile (Video, Photos)

On July 7, Iran unveiled the ground-launched version of the “Almas” anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) which is a direct copy...

southfront.org

 

[Arpit]

Here is a brief comparison between Spike development and Indian Nag development :

Main Source

Dead Tanks: Why Israel's Spike Missile Is so Good

Key point: Ever since it was first used, the Spike missile has made its name known. Here’s why it outclasses so many other anti-tank systems. On October 6, 1973, over eight hundred tanks from three mechanized infantry divisions poured over the Israeli border into the Golan Heights. The sheer...

nationalinterest.org

Spike :
1. Need Felt after 1973 conflict with tank columns rolling onto Israel.
2. By 1981 Tammuz (Spike-NLOS) was operational with Pereh vehicle. This was first surface to surface use of TV-Guided missile. It was so successful that even UK, Germany and South Korea imported it in both ATGM and anti artillery roles.

Nag:
1. Design started in 1988. First tested in 1990.
2. Till date neither Nag nor NAMICA has entered production. NO variant of Nag (AFAIK) are operational. No export made, obviously.

Spike :
1. In 1992, Spike MR was tested for first time.
2. In 2000, Spike MR was exported to Finland.

Nag :
1. In 2018, MPATAGM was tested.
2. Devil knows when it will see any induction. Lets not even talk about export.

Spike:
1. In 2010, Spike ER was imported by italy for use on A129 helicopters.

Helina:
2. Till 2020, HELINA/Dhruvastra is still not operational after devil knows how many tests. HELINA's range is also less than Spike.

These are ludicrous claims

Firstly, Nag actually used Israel's head seeker which failed in Rajasthan, your so wonderful Israeli seeker failed.

The Nag missile has an Israeli seeker head. After being denied the seeker head technology by Thales of France, DRDO tied up with Rafael of Israel to provide the seeker's heads. The seeker's head is an advanced Electro-Optical system, critical in the guidance of the Nag.

INDIAN ARMY ORDERS NAG ATGMS

battle-updates.com

Then DRDO developed a higher resolution IIR seeker (128 x 128) than the Israeli one(64*64). That also failed.

And then DRDO developed a 640x512 resolution seeker, which was tested in 2016.




Furthurmore, why comparing Spike with MPATGM or even NAG. Firstly, NAG role is far far different than of Spike,

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

But your lovely Spike missile failed in Rajasthan trials, so how you claiming Israel is ahead in ATGMs, and claiming Spike as world best is laughable claim, they dont even use liquid cooled IIR seeker like in Javelin (which also failed).

Please start to some research before making such ludicrous claims.

 

[randomradio]

These are ludicrous claims

Firstly, Nag actually used Israel's head seeker which failed in Rajasthan, your so wonderful Israeli seeker failed.

INDIAN ARMY ORDERS NAG ATGMS

battle-updates.com

Then DRDO developed a higher resolution IIR seeker (128 x 128) than the Israeli one(64*64). That also failed.

And then DRDO developed a 640x512 resolution seeker, which was tested in 2016.

View attachment 21867


Furthurmore, why comparing Spike with MPATGM or even NAG. Firstly, NAG role is far far different than of Spike,

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

But your lovely Spike missile failed in Rajasthan trials, so how you claiming Israel is ahead in ATGMs, and claiming Spike as world best is laughable claim, they dont even use liquid cooled IIR seeker like in Javelin (which also failed).

Please start to some research before making such ludicrous claims.

All the imports failed trials. The army's requirement was too high for deserts, they can't help it, so they had to wait for technology to catch up for Nag, and the DRDO finally got it a few years ago.

 

[Hydra]

Thats 17 billion usd in capital allocation.

Israel's entire defence budget is 20 billion. They have one of the world's best anti tank missile all made in Israel. And it did not take them this long.
South Africa has a very able ATGM since 1987 and in 2013 made a man portable one too. Their total defence budget is 4 billion dollars.

The damn Nag missile has been under development since 1988 and got inducted in 2018... WTF?

Nag,Inducted in 2018?

 

[screambowl]

Thats 17 billion usd in capital allocation.

19% of 64 billion is approx 12 billion dollars

or lets say 19% of 74 billion dollars(official) which is 14 billion dollars not 17. Or lets say even 17 billion dollars.

now you further divide this into

Border roads organization 2.3 billion dollars, fuel purchase- 1 billion dollars, equipment maintenance approx 0.5 billion dollars and other cost overruns.

What your are left is merely 8-9 billion dollars to build arjun, agni shaurya, nag, AAD PAD, Krishna Kaveri, Teja, bheja, Mk2, AMCA, Lakshya, Arihant, Vikrant, Dhruv, Pirthvi, Nirbhaya, Dhanushva, communication networks, and the list goes on.

This is a joke. Thanks to the MoD and Ministry of Finance. Also, most of the allotted budget is not used by them somewhat resmains unused and this is why from sucessive years the the budget gets reduced because they don't use it.

This is the result of stupid administration. The same reason why Air India was doomed.

 

[Saaho]

Border roads organization 2.3 billion dollars, fuel purchase- 1 billion dollars, equipment maintenance approx 0.5 billion dollars and other cost overruns.

What your are left is merely 8-9 billion dollars to build arjun, agni shaurya, nag, AAD PAD, Krishna Kaveri, Teja, bheja, Mk2, AMCA, Lakshya, Arihant, Vikrant, Dhruv, Pirthvi, Nirbhaya, Dhanushva, communication networks, and the list goes on.

This is a joke. Thanks to the MoD and Ministry of Finance. Also, most of the allotted budget is not used by them somewhat resmains unused and this is why from sucessive years the the budget gets reduced because they don't use it.

You DO realise that the countries that I am comparing with have TOTAL BUDGET less than this 17 billion dollars. BOTH of them have much lower PPP factor ie their 1 dollar goes much less futher and buys much lesser.

This is NOT lack of funds, its simple stupid mismanagement of funds.

Who the hell asked them go all by themselves for building a COMPLETE aircraft by themself ie Tejas including a god damned engine too. Would have been hell lot of easier if they had not wasted money on doing research on a FCR and Engine and would have focused only on air-craft and A2A missile.

As I said much earlier this is simple incompetence. 8-9 billion nominal per year is NOT a small amount.

Denel's TOTAL equity is $150 million dollars or so.. Its annual revenue is less than 200 million dollars. (http://admin.denel.co.za/uploads/16a2b1e11582fc73d77552a23686b831.pdf) In 8 to 9 billion dollars you can set up multiple denel like companies in India.

Denel has operationalized :
A-Darter and R-Darter A2A missiles.
ATGM : ZT3 since 1980s
Raptor PGMs
Mid range SAMs

All of this they did before 2001. These have been exported to many countries including Pakistan. Compare this to anything developed by DRDO. Most have not yet reached production stage.

Only very recently Indian A2A missiles went for production. Indian IR A2A missile is nowhere to be seen. ATGM is barely into production. Man portable ones, still under development.

 

[Lolwa]

You DO realise that the countries that I am comparing with have TOTAL BUDGET less than this 17 billion dollars. BOTH of them have much lower PPP factor ie their 1 dollar goes much less futher and buys much lesser.

This is NOT lack of funds, its simple stupid mismanagement of funds.

Who the hell asked them go all by themselves for building a COMPLETE aircraft by themself ie Tejas including a god damned engine too. Would have been hell lot of easier if they had not wasted money on doing research on a FCR and Engine and would have focused only on air-craft and A2A missile.

As I said much earlier this is simple incompetence. 8-9 billion nominal per year is NOT a small amount.

Denel's TOTAL equity is $150 million dollars or so.. Its annual revenue is less than 200 million dollars. (http://admin.denel.co.za/uploads/16a2b1e11582fc73d77552a23686b831.pdf) In 8 to 9 billion dollars you can set up multiple denel like companies in India.

Denel has operationalized :
A-Darter and R-Darter A2A missiles.
ATGM : ZT3 since 1980s
Raptor PGMs
Mid range SAMs

All of this they did before 2001. These have been exported to many countries including Pakistan. Compare this to anything developed by DRDO. Most have not yet reached production stage.

Only very recently Indian A2A missiles went for production. Indian IR A2A missile is nowhere to be seen. ATGM is barely into production. Man portable ones, still under development.

South Africa is a unique case though. They have been quite revolutionary in arms and weapons manufacturing similar to Israel. If not for the apartheid removal they would still be quite dangerous and advanced.

 

[Saaho]

South Africa is a unique case though. They have been quite revolutionary in arms and weapons manufacturing similar to Israel. If not for the apartheid removal they would still be quite dangerous and advanced.

Every god damned country is a unique case and so is India. A unique case in messing up things ROYALLY.

I mean if you ask a certain radio, we will need a 500 trillion dollar economy to push even a flock of pigions away from our coasts because they may be backed by China/USA/Cuthulu and devil knows what.

One of these days, I will land in IGI and bring a butter knife with me. Indian government will surrender because Ninda Turtle will not be able to muster enough confidence in Indian defence forces to stop a butter knife. At the end both PMO and Ninda Turtle will do a Ghor Ninda of invading India with a god damned butter knife. Afterwards, CSO Rawat will take the butter knife and will show it to Biden as a "breaking of terns of sale of US weapon". Jai shankar will then organize 50,000 negotiation round till the universe dies its heat death.

Now if the elections were due, PMO will order an air strike! IAF will drop forks and cups on Noida and someone from FM will come on screen and say "Intelligence based mission is over! We have hit 500 invaders and RAW has verified them neutralized by checking their Flashlight signal has disappeared!" Later IAF will privately show some black and white pictures to journalists and when pushed for proof will show MS Paint drawings. Modi will say, cloud interfered in getting a clear radar lock.

 

[Lolwa]

Every god damned country is a unique case and so is India

No it isn't. South Africa pretty much is uniquely positioned in being completely self sufficient and being a leader in combat tactics and systems. From MRAP's to smart munitions they have been market leaders in this field until Americans developed their own. A lot of smart munitions pakistani has got is from South Africa, it's similar to how our relationship is with Israel.

 

[Saaho]

No it isn't. South Africa pretty much is uniquely positioned in being completely self sufficient and being a leader in combat tactics and systems. From MRAP's to smart munitions they have been market leaders in this field until Americans developed their own. A lot of smart munitions pakistani has got is from South Africa, it's similar to how our relationship is with Israel.

India is unique because it cannot even develop a working half way decent rifle after 40 years of research and massive amount of money spend.

Meanwhile many African countries just copied AK-47 (preferred by many in armed forces over the botched up job that INSAS is) and started producing it by simple steel stamping process to manufacture receivers and putting wooden furniture.

We innovate to fail when simply copying would have worked. If this is not unique I do not know what is unique.

Ask China and its Type-56 variant.

 

[Lolwa]

India is unique because it cannot even develop a working half way decent rifle after 40 years of research and massive amount of money spend.

Meanwhile many African countries just copied AK-47 (preferred by many in armed forces over the botched up job that INSAS is) and started producing it by simple steel stamping process to manufacture receivers and putting wooden furniture.

We innovate to fail when simply copying would have worked. If this is not unique I do not know what is unique.

Ask China and its Type-56 variant.

That's more a blame on the bureaucracy and political elite along with not reforming the OFB's than actual capabilities. If you look at the quality of license produced indian arms they are up there with the best. Designing of arms should have been done by the Army instead of the potbellied Babu's and "engineers" in OFB.

 

[jetray]

That's more a blame on the bureaucracy and political elite along with not reforming the OFB's than actual capabilities. If you look at the quality of license produced indian arms they are up there with the best. Designing of arms should have been done by the Army instead of the potbellied Babu's and "engineers" in OFB.

It is not just reforming the OFB or some xyz.....it is the mentality that neither I will do it nor I will let others do it. Govt acts like a hooligan who wants to control everything, in the process does nothing properly. Govt will not hesitate to pay billions of dollars to some foreign company but will not let Indian companies freely develop products even for export. They just want to show who is the boss & keep their hold onto the power( power to make more money ), whether it is foreign tie ups or import every thing has to be thru them.