Oh 2022 is the magic year then.
Whats your point? All these govt tenders are 6% era. Did the price of Rafale decrease with GDP growth rate?
When DPP changes new tenders adopt them. Again, what's the point?
Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
2022-23, whenever tenders start maturing. Basically before next elections, so even 2024.
NUH, MMRCA and P-75I in particular are aimed to be done quickly.
The afforadability increased. Post 2011 to Modi's rule was 4% era, with a recession-filled future. That ended all chances of tenders going anywhere. Now we are in 7% era with promising future growth.
The point is the kind of changes done have never been done before. Private industry has also invested a lot of money for this. These are not govt nomination tenders where DPSUs can wait forever to get a deal.
As i said MKI correlation and 'retire soon of D-III' was full of hot air. Report from Ajay Shukla
IAF ends plan to upgrade Jaguar fighters, squadron numbers crunch worsens
The Indian Air Force (IAF), already short of 12 squadrons from its authorized fleet of 42 fighter squadrons, is now facing an even bigger aircraft shortfall.
With US engine maker, Honeywell, demanding what IAF sources term an “exorbitant” price for its F-125IN engines, the IAF has told Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) that it has abandoned its plan to upgrade 80 Jaguar fighters with new Honeywell engines.
The IAF operates a fleet of 120 Jaguar fighters, comprising six squadrons. It had planned to retire the oldest 40 (two squadrons) in the early 2020s and “re-engine” the remaining 80 (four squadrons), which would then continue flying into the mid-2030s.
This plan has been abandoned after Honeywell quoted $2.4 billion for 180 engines – which include 160 engines for 80 twin-engine Jaguars, and 20 spare engines. That amounts to $13.3 million (Rs 95 crore) per engine.
With HAL charging Rs 20 crore for integrating the engines into the Jaguar fleet, the cost of “re-engining” each Jaguar has risen to a prohibitive Rs 210 crore.
The IAF is particularly incensed at Honeywell’s doubling the cost of the F-125IN engine from a quote it had submitted in 2013. In that quote, Honeywell had asked for $1.634 billion for 275 engines, or just under $6 million per engine. At that stage, the IAF was planning to upgrade all 120 Jaguars.
The IAF considers it essential to put new engines on the Jaguar, since its current Rolls-Royce Adour 804/811 engines, which deliver a maximum thrust of 32.5 KiloNewtons do not allow the fighter to climb or accelerate effectively. Honeywell’s F-125IN engines, each of which generates a maximum thrust of 40.4 KiloNewtons, are considered essential for fielding it in combat.
Honeywell planned to build the F-125IN engines in Taiwan, where the International Turbine Engine Company already builds Honeywell’s F-124 engine for Taiwan’sF-CK-1 Ching-kuo fighter. The F-125IN is the same engine, with an afterburner to increase thrust.
Honeywell sources say the IAF’s years of delay has convinced the company that this project is unlikely to come to fruition and that no more resources should be expended on this.
The sources point out Honeywell has spent at least $100 million on this project, including on buying two old Jaguar fighters to match the engine with the airframe.
Honeywell’s pessimism was evident in the company’s decision not to participate in the Aero India 2019 show in Bengaluru last February.
The cancellation of this project is especially disappointing for HAL, which undertook to lead the integration of the F-125IN engine into the Jaguar, including carrying out airframe modifications, flight-testing and certification. While Honeywell quoted $1.6 billion for this work in its 2013 tender, HAL quoted under $300 million.
@Milspec @Parthu
Not so surprising. With IAF havent cleared dues to HAL and still havent placed orders for new Mk1A, they are supposed to be pessimistic. Payment delays to vendors are so common with defence services. Until unless this is checked and corrected, its tough to improve innovation among private companies.
Some details about indian M2K modernization : Radar RDY400, EMTI (Rafale calculator, 50 times moer powerful than previous one and evolutive)) and brand new self protection suite, ICMS MKIV (as an example, ICMS from Mirage 2000N was a nightmare for F-15 during Red Flag 1996, with only 8 aircrafts engaged, 2k won 4 of the 9 trophies (called "oscars" as Hollywood prizes)..
re : Le corps de l’armement, un atout pour la France
re : Le corps de l’armement, un atout pour la France
Radars get more powerful when it's numbers increase?
RDY 200 < 300 <400 ?
Whts the use of EMTI?
It's a modular computer system. The main interest is that it's as easy to upgrade as a personal computer, you can plug additional processors, or replace them with newer ones, add more memory, etc. without having to recompile then requalify all the avionics software, as you would have to with most other aircraft.
Acc to baba we are getting 32 jaguars and 2 mirage 2k from france as gifts.Jaguars as spare source through cannibalization and mirages probably as crash replacementsts.
Also there is renewed nag action on loc.
Also there is renewed nag action on loc.
The Hindu (@the_hindu) Tweeted:
IAF calls off long-pending plan to give new engines to Jaguar fighter fleet due to time and cost concerns
#IAF #Jaguar
No new engines for Jaguars, phase-out starts in 2023 ( )
IAF calls off long-pending plan to give new engines to Jaguar fighter fleet due to time and cost concerns
#IAF #Jaguar
No new engines for Jaguars, phase-out starts in 2023 ( )
Perfectly fine. Let's not forget that 37 Jaguars were inducted in the 2000s, so those jets still have 20-30 more years.
According to the article, it's 2038 . That's the last date by which the Jaguars built in 2000 will exit give or take a couple of years. The last thing I want to see them, if I'm around, is them dropping from the skies like the MiG 21's in the 90's .
The Jaguar won't face the same problem.
The oldest Jaguars are quite old, so they will be gone. The ones that are left are not old at all, as I said many are newer than MKIs and have 6000 hour service lives. If we had new engines, we could have extended the remaining 37 into the 2050s.
The Mig-21 faced different problems that don't affect the Jaguar. So the Jaguar's crash rate is pretty okay. The risk for the Jaguar is it flies at lower altitudes, so at high risk of bird strikes and also less time for the pilot to save the aircraft. But the two engines make it far more resilient than the Mig-21.
According to industrial reports, that's what seems to have happened:
Honeywell was accommodating, even going so far as to equip itself with a reformed cell to validate the integration of the F125IN, but at one point had to react to Indian delays and unilaterally change the negotiation/invoicing mode, they significantly increased the bill to include some kind of Indian bullshit insurance policy.
In concrete terms, they made them a first good deal, the company invested out of their pocket to develop the engine and think about integration, they refined their industrial plan (especially in Taiwan), etc. etc.. But the Indians, as usual, dragged it out, procrastinated, and "go ahead and check that the supplier isn't trying to screw me", and that I'm nitpicking about the little lines of the contract, and that "I don't have the money right now but I swear next Wednesday you'll come back next Wednesday I have your 5000 dollars, Jack! Don't touch my children!", etc.
So when the Indians came back with a proposal for a rotten deal (basically they don't want to pay penalties if they reduce their order, or in case of spreading orders, that kind of nonsense), Honeywell gave them an enemy price, which was very badly taken/understood by the Indians - those who have the curious habit of considering what they are told as immutable and eternal whereas for themselves, everything is changeable.
Basically Honeywell wanted to be sure to recover their costs even if the Indians stop everything after 20 deliveries of engines. And I will give you the details of the atmosphere between the engine manufacturer and the integrator who is none other than.... HAL of course!!!
Rolls Royce had been disloyal from the very beginning of the consultation.
So as usual in India, it's not surprising: By being afraid of being plucked, Indians are losing billions of dollars and decades of industrial development and operational readiness.
Why not transfer the older jaugars to say Army Aviation corps, for them to develop their CAS role.
This way IAF gets rid of their older jets, & army can start their own aviation with capability to support at battalion levels
This way IAF gets rid of their older jets, & army can start their own aviation with capability to support at battalion levels
It's a stupid post, whoever wrote that. HAL/MoD agreed to a price hike with decrease in orders. 30% decrease in order in exchange for 30% increase in cost. But Honeywell increased both price of integration and engine cost to ridiculous levels. The price of reengining the Jaguars is now three times as expensive as the F-35B's engines. Who the hell will agree to that? One can buy an entire advanced aircraft from Russia for the same price. Even the F-21 is cheaper than the price of engines. Common sense seems to be lost here.
Even if it makes sense, the air force won't give up fixed wing jets to the army.
And in this case, the Jaguar is more suited to DPS than CAS. Its avionics are geared towards that role, so a CAS role is a significant downgrade and doesn't make sense. All that capability and experience will be lost to gain nothing.
The army is better off with the more versatile attack helicopters than pay for the maintenance and operation of the Jaguar.
This is not even considering the squadron drawdown.