Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

[Speedster1]

“Be A ” by Moin Ally.

The classic MiG-29 is/was a true beauty. The IAF was lucky to get her when it did. With the MIG-29SMT upgrade, they added a saddle fuel tank on the back which screwed up her aesthetics.

The newer MiG-29M and its latest follow-ons have a more rounded nose, and thicker spine which is not a whole lot better as far as looks go.

Wish they had adopted a configuration similar to the F16s conformal overwing fuel tanks or even that of the Typhoon.
It would have been so much more interesting. I know there is an aerodynamic penalty but.....

 

[randomradio]

thanks for the answer, just one more thing can we also use it as how the russians are using su 25 which is for CAS?

Yes. A-10 is the American Su-25.

 

[Ashwin]

 

[lcafanboy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1830656717585334301

BREAKING: IAF MiG-29 fighter crashes in Barmer, Rajasthan. Pilot said to be safe. No damage on ground. Details awaited.

Crash all the fighter planes and close IAF ones for all because at this rate of new fighter induction & old ones dropping out of the sky IAF won't have any planes left in a few years....

 

[HariPrasad]

Indonesia says it canceled purchase of 12 used Mirage 2000-5s from Qatar​

Grab this opportunity.

Thats, Around $8 million for RD-33 and $13 million per engine for AL-31.

For comparison, GE 404 costs around $7.2 million.

This may come with TOT while GE 404 may not come with TOT.

 

[HariPrasad]

It's just a decade. And HAL had a claimed rate of 12 annually for upgrading Mirages. Instead of buying and upgrading 3 Mirages, invest that in 2 Tejas Mk1A.

We did a mistake in Mig21. Doesn't mean we need to repeat it. Remember, never fly a Russian aircraft for more hours than the Russian Airforce is.

The Russian OEMs will say anything and sign any paper if it means money for them. Their guarantees are useless.

We have enough experience of Russian planes and hence exposure to take decision.

 

[Ashwin]

This may come with TOT while GE 404 may not come with TOT.

No, both are without. Initial batch had ToT. You only need it once. RD-33 cost is including of local value addition.

Russian engines are costly, less reliable and with limited overall life.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No, both are without. Initial batch had ToT. You only need it once. RD-33 cost is including of local value addition.

Russian engines are costly, less reliable and with limited overall life.

Maybe we are acquiring some sort of IP rights or at least modification rights for AL-31FP. The current order for 230 AL-31FP would have 54% indigenous content and with rumours of a test-bed, we may completely indigenize it along with increasing its performance, reliability, TBO etc.

 

[Ashwin]

Maybe we are acquiring some sort of IP rights or at least modification rights for AL-31FP. The current order for 230 AL-31FP would have 54% indigenous content and with rumours of a test-bed, we may completely indigenize it along with increasing its performance, reliability, TBO etc.

Unlikely. They are milking us as much as possible. Thats all.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

We have enough experience of Russian planes and hence exposure to take decision.

The country which designed, developed and made these are not using them beyond 20-25 years and we have enough experience to use them longer?

Are we talking about using Maruti 800 or a Machine facing upto 9G flying?

 

[HariPrasad]

The country which designed, developed and made these are not using them beyond 20-25 years and we have enough experience to use them longer?

Are we talking about using Maruti 800 or a Machine facing upto 9G flying?

I think you are cut off from reality. Aren't we using Russian stuff from as long as anybody else does in the world? Does that experience not count?

 

[HariPrasad]

No, both are without. Initial batch had ToT. You only need it once. RD-33 cost is including of local value addition.

Russian engines are costly, less reliable and with limited overall life.

Yes, they are less reliable and has lower life but they are not costly compared to west.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I think you are cut off from reality. Aren't we using Russian stuff from as long as anybody else does in the world? Does that experience not count?

Cut off from reality? Do you understand what aviation is?

Experience counts nada when it comes to actual engineering. If the airframe has not been designed for 8000 hours, you cannot fly it for 8000 hours.

The problem is MiG is signing the papers for it against the money we are paying.

But the truth lies in the biggest users of Mig21/23/27 not using it for 35 years.
China which actually had enough experience to create J7 out of Mig-21 didn't fly them for more than 25 years.

Heck PAF is retiring F7PGs after 25 years.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Unlikely. They are milking us as much as possible. Thats all.

The latest 240 engines would have increased indigenous content(54%), so Russians may want better price for this deal as in future our dependence on them will further reduce.

Anyways, do you believe in the rumours regarding AL-31FP testbed or not? 'Cause if we are looking for a testbed, it could mean only one thing, i.e., a desi AL-31FP, IMO.

 

[Ashwin]

The latest 240 engines would have increased indigenous content(54%), so Russians may want better price for this deal as in future our dependence on them will further reduce.

Anyways, do you believe in the rumours regarding AL-31FP testbed or not? 'Cause if we are looking for a testbed, it could mean only one thing, i.e., a desi AL-31FP, IMO.

Regular PR talk. I don't know how 54% is an improvement. Earlier HAL used to quote 80%.

How can there be a testbed specific for AL-31? GTRE is building a testbed for engines for upto 130kn engines. No relation to that program with Russia engine. Can it be used to improve AL-31? Why not.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773410415025779141

 

[HariPrasad]

Cut off from reality? Do you understand what aviation is?

Experience counts nada when it comes to actual engineering. If the airframe has not been designed for 8000 hours, you cannot fly it for 8000 hours.

The problem is MiG is signing the papers for it against the money we are paying.

But the truth lies in the biggest users of Mig21/23/27 not using it for 35 years.
China which actually had enough experience to create J7 out of Mig-21 didn't fly them for more than 25 years.

Heck PAF is retiring F7PGs after 25 years.

That is exactly what I say. We have the experiences of Russian planes. I.e claim Vs reality. We have the exact idea of to what extent they can be used. You narrowed the experience to engineering only and that is your problem.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

That is exactly what I say. We have the experiences of Russian planes. I.e claim Vs reality. We have the exact idea of to what extent they can be used. You narrowed the experience to engineering only and that is your problem.

The guarantee of flying hours in modern aviation is based on engineering. The insurance is provided on the same. And lives of pilots depends on the same.

If our experience was substantial, we would have created an indigenous Mig-21.

 

[Multicellular man]

can anyone post different types of weapon loadout of sepecat jaguar and mirage 2000 ?

 

[_Anonymous_]

The latest 240 engines would have increased indigenous content(54%), so Russians may want better price for this deal as in future our dependence on them will further reduce.

Anyways, do you believe in the rumours regarding AL-31FP testbed or not? 'Cause if we are looking for a testbed, it could mean only one thing, i.e., a desi AL-31FP, IMO.

As per Arihant Roy of D F I / D F B , the indigenous content is as high as ~ 87 % . However in terms of value as in cost of the TF it's ~ 54% .

How this is so is beyond me ?! I've posed the same question to him but he hasn't logged in as of now .

Everything you can think of in a gas turbine or jet engine is made here. IGV , LPC aerofoils, discs and stators , HPC blades , discs and stators, annular combustor , intermediate casing , HPT blades and vanes, LPT blades and vanes, flame holder assembly, and con di axi symmetric nozzle petals,flaps . The tech transfer involved in AL-31FP is much higher than what is envisaged for the much routed GE F414 INS6 Make in India deal.

The test bed is being developed for ITC certification of 3rd Gen SCB developed by DMRL & duly certified for installation on the AL-31FP along with the indigenously developed TVC.

He also recommends we go in for an improved version of the AL-31FP with new HPT , LPT. HPC , LPC which has the same dimensions as the previous TF but with TTSL enhanced to 6000 hrs .

Alternatively we go in for the
AL- 41F1S which as per him requires minor modifications to the air inlet & engine nacelles with a 6000 hrs TTSL & wet thrust of 142 KN.

From what I've seen of him in the last 1 year he's a pretty reliable source & very knowledgeable too .

 

[marich01]

As per Arihant Roy of D F I / D F B , the indigenous content is as high as ~ 87 % . However in terms of value as in cost of the TF it's ~ 54% .

How this is so is beyond me ?! I've posed the same question to him but he hasn't logged in as of now .

That is most likely cos HAL is contractually obliged to buy the materials, different steel grades , quite a lot of those , from Rus. Even for some parts that they would make here, actual raw material needs to be bought from OEM approved source in Rus. There was a guide on aircraft and aero engines back in 2021 publish where there were tables for which grades are imported from Rus. Have to dig that part out sometimes. So even if HAL is fashioning something here ie 100% IC for the item, but the cost wise % of IC would be lesser due to imported material.