Exactly what Picdelamirand oil said long back before we bought 36 Rafales.
That Once we start using Rafales, IAF wouldn't want anything other than Rafale.
MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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Exactly what Picdelamirand oil said long back before we bought 36 Rafales.
That Once we start using Rafales, IAF wouldn't want anything other than Rafale.
I have said it makes sense for India to get the rafale M. Why introduce another platform.
It doesn't mean the the rafale is cheaper or better. It isn't. Let's try to keep some reality in the posts.
IAF has always wanted ONLY Rafale even before they were using it. Before that it was Mirage-2000 which they wanted.
IAF's perspective of why Rafale is best for them(above all) is answered here(any other answer or view is wrong):
Listen to this very interesting interview, even MMRCA saga is mentioned here.
Not completely true . Besides this video is ~2 yrs old. If you've followed the entire debate on it in B R F or even P D F or D F I you'd know that there was a very strong lobby backing the Eurofighter too which at times had the upper hand including a much smaller lobby for any of the US offerings and surprise surprise the Gripen .
Hell there's the Vijayender Thakur types in the IAF too who swear by everything Russian still prevalent in the IAF today.
Saw the full video. ..
Not sure why he is having grudge against Tedbf? Since its naval program?
He wants ADA to focus on Mk2 and Amca.
IAF wants Mk2 performance better than Mirage 2000 , since both have almost same power... I got bit concerned imagining the beauty of Mirage.
[ somehow all metal frames are sleek ]
He explained why we shouldn't skip Mk2..
About which discussion s happened in many forums.
The IAF was involved in the jet's design process and a committee even okayed it.
Understanding and analysing information is a skill not everyone has.
The CPFH figure for SH is questionable. The SH's is quoted to be as low as $12k or even $10k. The up to $20000 figure includes a lot of other things, the same as the F-16's $25000.
And:
'Top Gun: Maverick' F/A-18 Fighter Jet Flights Cost Tom Cruise Movie $11,374 An Hour - Maxim
The long-awaited "Top Gun" sequel set a new Memorial Day Weekend box office record.
www.maxim.com
This practically guarantees that the cost of the E is even lesser, and is consistent with Boeing's claims that the SH is cheaper than the F-16. The last I heard, someone said it's $9.5k.
As for the Rafale, the Indian deal included a 5-year spares supply at €343M, that's €1.9M per year per jet. If we assume 250 hours per year, then we get €7600 or $8100 per hour. But that's spares alone. Add all the other costs like fuel and consumables, the cost increases significantly above SH's $11374. Possibly the $16k to 18k that you have quoted.
IMHO, the SH wins in terms of basing costs and operations cost. Where the Rafale has an advantage is the cost of R&D. If MoD is looking at all prices, then the Rafale may have some cost advantage, but that's only if MoD considers the R&D cost too. Otoh, unit cost could go either way due to the weaker euro, but you never know. The USN is paying less than $60M per jet after all. The one advantage the SH has here is the Block 3 upgrades happening now could already take care of the IN's customisation needs.
The only disadvantage of the SH is weapons integration. Whatever has been funded for the Rafale will have to be duplicated for the SH as well. But I don't think the MoD will consider this when making a decision. Weapons are judged based on OEM loadouts after all. So that's a cost the IN has to bear independently.
That's for the Americans. The superhornet all costs considered would cost around 250 mil$No, the standard rafale over $100m is even more expensive than the SHlll of $60m The indian version of the rafale, added another $60m to $160m
Both have additional costs for pods and such.
Boeing Completes Resurrection Of F/A-18E/F With First Block III Delivery | Aviation Week Network
Boeing on June 17 delivered the first F/A-18E/F Block III to the U.S. Navy to launch a yearlong testing campaign on a new configuration with around a $60 million flyaway cost that is currently being offered to five foreign air forces.aviationweek.com
>In November 2016 the US State Department approved the sale of up to 40 Super Hornets (32 F/A-18Es and eight F/A-18Fs) for Kuwait, valued at USD10.1 billion (including related equipment and support). Once in KAF service, the Super Hornets will
Redirect Notice.
Heck the qataris paid like 12 billion$ for 36 f-15QA's.
If you get any source make sure to pin it like they have pinned tweets . We're expected to believe the IAF was involved in the design process when they weren't even permitted to see the aircraft under development or witness the air trials. Or perhaps getting the IAF's inputs & later showing them how their inputs were incorporated into the design is now code for they were part of the design process with a committee even approving the design .
I see RST's back to vintage form which is reassuring . In between he turned far too listless & apathetic to the going ons here .
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'Cause HAL wants to kill MRFA, kill any potential future competition and push TEDBF's air force cousin ORCA onto the IAF. It's obvious the IAF doesn't like it.
Look at the options:
MRFA (Rafale) - grounded in reality.
LCA Mk2 - risky but somewhat realistic. The engine is proven and the airframe is a modification of an existing proven airframe.
AMCA - pie in the sky. Until the day it flies, it's a drawing on someone's napkin.
ORCA - not even a pie in the sky. It's literally someone's dream.
The IAF already has 2 risky projects, they are not gonna make it worse with a third one carrying the most risk that's based on a design that was not as per their requirements. And a stale old point I've already made before, it's obvious the IAF will opt for more AMCA Mk1 over ORCA by default. There's nothing more obvious than that.
Yep. MRFA, LCA Mk2 and AMCA, that's the IAF's gameplan.
No that's not quite true . Schezwan is still his go to sauce . It's true of everything he burps out here .
Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft
pib.gov.in
Under the Preliminary Design Contract, the expenditure committed so far, is Rs. 1,418.91 crore.
Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone
World News:Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone
India to finalize fifth-gen fighter deal
India is going ahead with the acquisition of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft with Russia after an internal committee of the Ministry of Defence recommended that the purchase of the aircraft will duplicate India’s plan to develop a homegrown advanced medium combat aircraft, according to an...
www.defensenews.com
So India was involved in the 3-year design phase of the FGFA and an IAF committee recommended going ahead with the program.
GoI simply took a political decision.
BAE, Iveco Introduce Amphibious Combat Vehicle to International Market
BAE Systems and Iveco Defence Vehicles have introduced the Amphibious Combat Vehicle (ACV) to international customers at a defense fair in Spain.
www.google.com
Post 4509 and 4516 show I am the only one posting sources here. Others have only hot gas to deliver.
Or of course, they have tweets that most of the times they themselves don't understand.
'Cause you know that's the go-to source for military knowledge. Oh, no, not research papers and military documents, no, just tweets that were re-tweeted multiple times pass for sources here.
Not the complete cost.
www.reuters.com
Or of course, they have tweets that most of the times they themselves don't understand.
'Cause you know that's the go-to source for military knowledge. Oh, no, not research papers and military documents, no, just tweets that were re-tweeted multiple times pass for sources here.BAE, Iveco Introduce Amphibious Combat Vehicle to International Market
BAE Systems and Iveco Defence Vehicles have introduced the Amphibious Combat Vehicle (ACV) to international customers at a defense fair in Spain.
Not the complete cost.
Exclusive - Boeing poised to clinch $3 billion-plus Kuwait F/A-18 order
Kuwait is expected to announce in coming weeks an order for 28 Boeing Co <BA.N> F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, a $3 billion-plus (£1.96 billion plus) deal that will keep the jets' St. Louis production line running well into 2019, according to people familiar with the deal.
www.reuters.com
Since when is trained Indian engineers & provided HAL with data & software needed to create a single working environment the equivalent of them designing or helping design the system. @ " Under the PDC contract Sukhoi has also trained Indian engineers and provided HAL with the data and software needed to create a single working environment. A team of HAL engineers and IAF experts has been working at Sukhoi’s design bureau in Moscow, while Russian engineers have been assigned to HAL."
Besides since when did HAL acquire design capabilities , that too design capabilities for 5th Gen FA when they were literally struggling to design & test the Basic & Intermediate trainers which were turboprops of which the latter is still undergoing certification trials .
This is what I wrote in my previous post that Russia would show HAL - IAF team their inputs have been incorporated into the design based on which a technical report would've been prepared which would be studied by a technical committee who in turn would certify the project as meeting our requirements & approve it conveying the sane to MoD / GoI for the next course of action . @ “The internal committee, headed by retired Indian Air Force Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman, after studying technical parameters, has recommended India to acquire the Indo-Russian FGFA,” the MoD official said, referring to the fifth-generation fighter aircraft.
This is now being sought to be portrayed here as part of the design team & soon before we realise it the shifting of goalposts will commence . It's all part of the same old tired post 8 pm analysis routine we've been seeing ad nauseam since God alone knows when .
I'm guessing RST hasn't been part of the development process of any new product nor has he quite participated in auditing the internal processes in any professional set up which is why he's totally ignorant of such procedures. All he's familiar with is good old R&D - reading & dumping . # 4518 is a good example of it apart from blowing one's own trumpet .
Besides since when did HAL acquire design capabilities , that too design capabilities for 5th Gen FA when they were literally struggling to design & test the Basic & Intermediate trainers which were turboprops of which the latter is still undergoing certification trials .
This is what I wrote in my previous post that Russia would show HAL - IAF team their inputs have been incorporated into the design based on which a technical report would've been prepared which would be studied by a technical committee who in turn would certify the project as meeting our requirements & approve it conveying the sane to MoD / GoI for the next course of action . @ “The internal committee, headed by retired Indian Air Force Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman, after studying technical parameters, has recommended India to acquire the Indo-Russian FGFA,” the MoD official said, referring to the fifth-generation fighter aircraft.
This is now being sought to be portrayed here as part of the design team & soon before we realise it the shifting of goalposts will commence . It's all part of the same old tired post 8 pm analysis routine we've been seeing ad nauseam since God alone knows when .
I'm guessing RST hasn't been part of the development process of any new product nor has he quite participated in auditing the internal processes in any professional set up which is why he's totally ignorant of such procedures. All he's familiar with is good old R&D - reading & dumping . # 4518 is a good example of it apart from blowing one's own trumpet .
Ah, Ignorants earning his well-deserved name with every post. Writes the most, knows the least.
FGFA is an official IAF project, which means it begins with the IAF and ends with the IAF. Not the PMO, not MoD, not HAL, not Sukhoi, none of them, only the IAF. Even the MKI program began with an Air Marshal drawing the coutours of the program with a Sukhoi executive. HAL is merely the executor of the project, just like they are in FGFA.
PDP involves creating the blueprint of the aircraft. It's a pretty advanced stage in aircraft development. So here's a clue.
ADA released pic of TEDBF in 2021.
www.janes.com
But ADA got the PDP approval only in Sept 2022.
frontierindia.com
In September 2022, ADA began the preliminary design phase of TEDBF, which is expected to be completed within two years.
The same article explains all that's done during this phase.
The initial step involves sizing, refining, and enhancing the aerodynamic design of the TEDBF. Using CFD Analysis, the aerodynamic configuration will then be adjusted. Subsequently, a wind tunnel testing model for high-speed and low-speed tests would be developed for TEDBF aircraft. In the last part of the preliminary phase, the wind tunnel will be used to evaluate the canard, air intake, and DSI.
So we already knew what TEDBF would look like before PDP began.
Otoh, FGFA was in an even more advanced stage than this when PDP completed in 2013, all 'cause it was based on an existing design. So everything the FGFA was supposed to be, was already decided back in 2013, by the IAF.
When everything the IAF was supposed to do was completed, the program was passed over to GoI's approval. GoI wanted a second opinion, so they constituted an expert committee, and even they gave the greenlight.
But GoI delayed/cancelled the program for non-technical reasons. This has nothing to do with the IAF. The IAF was unhappy with the workshare, not the design of the aircraft, that's something they themselves signed off on.
Hence why Ignorants earned his hard-earned name.
FGFA is an official IAF project, which means it begins with the IAF and ends with the IAF. Not the PMO, not MoD, not HAL, not Sukhoi, none of them, only the IAF. Even the MKI program began with an Air Marshal drawing the coutours of the program with a Sukhoi executive. HAL is merely the executor of the project, just like they are in FGFA.
PDP involves creating the blueprint of the aircraft. It's a pretty advanced stage in aircraft development. So here's a clue.
ADA released pic of TEDBF in 2021.
Aero India 2021: Indian TEDBF naval fighter showcased by HAL
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has showcased for the first time its Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) concept for the Indian Navy (IN), with a scale model...
www.janes.com
But ADA got the PDP approval only in Sept 2022.
ADA to ready Aircraft carrier-based fighter TEDBF for the Indian Navy by 2026
ADA to ready Aircraft carrier-based fighter TEDBF for the Indian Navy by 2026 The Indian Navy plans to purchase
frontierindia.com
The same article explains all that's done during this phase.
The initial step involves sizing, refining, and enhancing the aerodynamic design of the TEDBF. Using CFD Analysis, the aerodynamic configuration will then be adjusted. Subsequently, a wind tunnel testing model for high-speed and low-speed tests would be developed for TEDBF aircraft. In the last part of the preliminary phase, the wind tunnel will be used to evaluate the canard, air intake, and DSI.
So we already knew what TEDBF would look like before PDP began.
Otoh, FGFA was in an even more advanced stage than this when PDP completed in 2013, all 'cause it was based on an existing design. So everything the FGFA was supposed to be, was already decided back in 2013, by the IAF.
When everything the IAF was supposed to do was completed, the program was passed over to GoI's approval. GoI wanted a second opinion, so they constituted an expert committee, and even they gave the greenlight.
But GoI delayed/cancelled the program for non-technical reasons. This has nothing to do with the IAF. The IAF was unhappy with the workshare, not the design of the aircraft, that's something they themselves signed off on.
Hence why Ignorants earned his hard-earned name.