MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 29 12.4%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 184 79.0%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 4.3%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 8 3.4%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    233
No! I mean yes..? I'm so conflicted!!

Part of me says no F-35's for India for all the sht talking and should have to fight chyna with its 4th gen fighters which will not end well for IAF but if India does go for the F-35 these same sht talkers are going to have to eat a crap load of humble pie which will bring a lot of joy to me seeing them eat this pie.

I reckon either way it's a win win for me. :sneaky:

Considering we are looking at fighting a war over the next 2 years at worst, perhaps a global war, even the US doesn't have F-35s. 2026 at the earliest for minimum B4 capabilities, ie no full warfighting capabilities for many more years.

And considering you believe that an Indian loss is a win for you, then you are definitely Chicom. :ROFLMAO:
 
FGFA? It's a big assumption that russia will even be able to produce aircraft, when Ukraine is over.

If ever I want to know something about the f-35. i always come to this forum first. so much wiser than the countries that fly them.
 
As usual Resident Story Teller acts like a strip tease artist & conceals more than he reveals . Too embarassed to share the rest of the report , eh ?

The same AVM Matheshwaran recommended we continue with the FGFA project which the IAF rejected & went to sleep . This was around 2017-18 .

One of the other reasons we withdrew from the project was the absurd pricing & blackmail the Russkies subjected us to with the last straw coming when they demanded 7 billion USD upfront plus claimed the price of each FA to be ~ 150 m USD . Multiply that with the original ~ 250 nos we were supposed to get to the revised ~ 140 nos to see how AVM Matheshwaran reached his figure of ~ 30 billion USD excluding the Rafales .

Kindly note the figure of 7 billion USD was purely towards development costs & the cost of development would'nt be offset against mfg which means we'd be shelling out ~ 150 m USD per FA had we gone in for it . Fed up with such constant blackmail in addition to the ever delayed schedules , total non co operation with our guys by the Russkies , constant changing of goalposts , increasing black mail , fluctuating prices , etc prompted the IAF to ask the Russkies to bend down & kiss their own a r s e s .

Shortly after we walked off the Russians came up with a revised offer of 4 billion USD per partner towards development of the project plus < 100 million USD per FA , IIRC .
 
FGFA? It's a big assumption that russia will even be able to produce aircraft, when Ukraine is over.

If ever I want to know something about the f-35. i always come to this forum first. so much wiser than the countries that fly them.
Except for SMC the Russians don't lack anything . They've enough to certify the 2nd stage of the PAKFA program. Post that if & it's a big if , we do decide to go in for the Su-57M , we can provide them the SMCs needed for the ones they mfg for us. But you've a point , it's going to be a complicated affair.

What are the SMC you reckon go into such advanced 5th Gen FAs ? Is it cutting edge state of the art SMCs or legacy ones ? @Bali78
 
With the current scenario, I think the Rafale F4 is the best choice. The benefits of it being that we won't have to worry about getting another type in our arsenal, and the fact that F4 is a very potent 4.5 gen fighter with enhanced electronic warfare capabilities.
My problem with all this is that by the time India actually inducts all these 4.5 gen fighters in our forces, won't it be too late to field these jets? And our Sukhois will be getting older as well.
By the time the entire world is going for the development of 5th and 6th gen fighters we are looking for and developing only 4.5 gen fighters. Our AMCA program realistically speaking will come to fruition maybe in next 10 to 15 years. So, shouldn't we go for something like Su57 Felon? We were co developing that jet at one point. It's also cheaper than f35 and will be easier to induct in our forces as we're well versed in maintaining and flying these Russian machines. Plus the Su57s will hold the fort and keeps us relevant in the modern times until the AMCA actually shows up.
I genuinely think that Su57 should be the only jet we should be persuing but I'd like to know why we aren't or why we shouldn't.
 
With the current scenario, I think the Rafale F4 is the best choice. The benefits of it being that we won't have to worry about getting another type in our arsenal, and the fact that F4 is a very potent 4.5 gen fighter with enhanced electronic warfare capabilities.
My problem with all this is that by the time India actually inducts all these 4.5 gen fighters in our forces, won't it be too late to field these jets? And our Sukhois will be getting older as well.
By the time the entire world is going for the development of 5th and 6th gen fighters we are looking for and developing only 4.5 gen fighters. Our AMCA program realistically speaking will come to fruition maybe in next 10 to 15 years. So, shouldn't we go for something like Su57 Felon? We were co developing that jet at one point. It's also cheaper than f35 and will be easier to induct in our forces as we're well versed in maintaining and flying these Russian machines. Plus the Su57s will hold the fort and keeps us relevant in the modern times until the AMCA actually shows up.
I genuinely think that Su57 should be the only jet we should be persuing but I'd like to know why we aren't or why we shouldn't.
We're waiting for Type-30 to mature. IAF has had such a bitter experience with AL-31FP that any derivative, no matter how advance, like AL-41F-1S or even AL-41F1; they are always going to be wary.

IAF loves Rafale because it's a finished product. Just listen to the interview of AM Raghu Nambiar sir I posted few pages back. He explains explicitly why we need more Rafale.

People don't realize it but now we're on a right track. We're upgrading MKI to a level where it will be able to defeat J-20 in a head to head battle. Rafale already is capable of doing that. S-400 and its low frequency radars are also an important part of IAF defeating J-20.

PS: Welcome to the forum:)
 
We're waiting for Type-30 to mature. IAF has had such a bitter experience with AL-31FP that any derivative, no matter how advance, like AL-41F-1S or even AL-41F1; they are always going to be wary.

IAF loves Rafale because it's a finished product. Just listen to the interview of AM Raghu Nambiar sir I posted few pages back. He explains explicitly why we need more Rafale.

People don't realize it but now we're on a right track. We're upgrading MKI to a level where it will be able to defeat J-20 in a head to head battle. Rafale already is capable of doing that. S-400 and its low frequency radars are also an important part of IAF defeating J-20.

PS: Welcome to the forum:)
You are delusional and deceitful, You have previously been shown by Dassault, 2030's SEAD/DEAD
With orders already confirmed, expectations of new purchases and with the future F5 variant starting its development to be introduced into service in the 2035-2038 period ( including the SEAD/DEAD version), it is clear that the French fighter has a long and fruitful future.
 
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You are delusional and deceitful, You have previously been shown by Dassault, 2030's SEAD/DEAD
With orders already confirmed, expectations of new purchases and with the future F5 variant starting its development to be introduced into service in the 2035-2038 period ( including the SEAD/DEAD version), it is clear that the French fighter has a long and fruitful future.
Relax mate, here we are talking about air combat. In that sense Rafale F3R-I that we've got is fully mature. Plus, I quoted our AM to prove my point.

Stop hating the Rafale so much Mr. Aussie.
 
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No! I mean yes..? I'm so conflicted!!

Part of me says no F-35's for India for all the sht talking and should have to fight chyna with its 4th gen fighters which will not end well for IAF but if India does go for the F-35 these same sht talkers are going to have to eat a crap load of humble pie which will bring a lot of joy to me seeing them eat this pie.

I reckon either way it's a win win for me. :sneaky:
Don't worry. It's going to come in India. The IAF liked them but they never liked the legacy teen fighters.
Don't be conflicted sweetie. Come out of the closet & be you !!

The F-35 we'd get wouldn't be with all those bells & whistles your poodles would be getting . It'd be a stripped down version . For al you know there'd be little to distinguish it from Duhssault's Rafail . Hell if I think I know trailer park tramps half as well , they'd be a couple of notches below the Rafails.

Besides paying top dollar we'd be handing our balls to the US to squeeze whenever it gets the urge which means multiple kill switches , personnel sniffing up our people's a r s e s on our own bases , etc. It's like one of those devices you buy from Apple paying thru your nose . At the end of the day you can't tell if you've bought it or leased it .

So I think we're better off with known devils like the French or the Russkies. We'd stick to them .
Even the f-35 with their allied nations are stripped down versions. Except for maybe the Israeli and UK lightnings.
 
According to whatever I've read and whatever little I know, the USA hasn't actually offered us the F35.
Plus even if they do, there's that question of integrating it with the equipment we already have.
Also the cost of one f35 roughly comes around to USD 400 mil + all the armament we'll need for the plane.
The F35 coming to IAF is quite impossible actually.
 
We're waiting for Type-30 to mature. IAF has had such a bitter experience with AL-31FP that any derivative, no matter how advance, like AL-41F-1S or even AL-41F1; they are always going to be wary.

IAF loves Rafale because it's a finished product. Just listen to the interview of AM Raghu Nambiar sir I posted few pages back. He explains explicitly why we need more Rafale.

People don't realize it but now we're on a right track. We're upgrading MKI to a level where it will be able to defeat J-20 in a head to head battle. Rafale already is capable of doing that. S-400 and its low frequency radars are also an important part of IAF defeating J-20.

PS: Welcome to the forum:)
Hey firstly thanks for replying and welcoming me.

Secondly I'd like to know about the AMCA program. Are we actually capable to produce such a jet? Because it took us almost 20 years to make the Tejas and it's still not satisfactorily capable. So MK2 is also not ready.
 
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US hasn't offered F35 & CCS hasn't given IAF the go ahead for issuing of RFP for MMRCA 2.0 yet.

I don't know from where this thread keeps alive.

According to whatever I've read and whatever little I know, the USA hasn't actually offered us the F35.
Plus even if they do, there's that question of integrating it with the equipment we already have.
Also the cost of one f35 roughly comes around to USD 400 mil + all the armament we'll need for the plane.
The F35 coming to IAF is quite impossible actually.

The F-35 offer is outside the ambit of MRFA. The Americans are offering the F-35 for direct import, not local production.
 
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With the current scenario, I think the Rafale F4 is the best choice. The benefits of it being that we won't have to worry about getting another type in our arsenal, and the fact that F4 is a very potent 4.5 gen fighter with enhanced electronic warfare capabilities.
My problem with all this is that by the time India actually inducts all these 4.5 gen fighters in our forces, won't it be too late to field these jets? And our Sukhois will be getting older as well.
By the time the entire world is going for the development of 5th and 6th gen fighters we are looking for and developing only 4.5 gen fighters. Our AMCA program realistically speaking will come to fruition maybe in next 10 to 15 years. So, shouldn't we go for something like Su57 Felon? We were co developing that jet at one point. It's also cheaper than f35 and will be easier to induct in our forces as we're well versed in maintaining and flying these Russian machines. Plus the Su57s will hold the fort and keeps us relevant in the modern times until the AMCA actually shows up.
I genuinely think that Su57 should be the only jet we should be persuing but I'd like to know why we aren't or why we shouldn't.

That's the idea. Rafale via MRFA, with LCA and AMCA being our indigenous options. And whether the IAF will actually go for the Su-57 or not is something they are keeping close to their chests. But, as of today, officially, the IAF has only planned for MRFA, LCA and AMCA.

As for why they are not pursuing the Su-57 today, right now it's in development hell and could become a viable option only after 2030. At least, that's the official stance on the jet. Point being, GoI says they will make a decision after the Su-57 is operational in Russia first.

As for why a JV was pursued, the IAF believed the industry was not capable of developing 5th gen yet at the time, 2007-10. So a joint development would have brought in technology and expertise via a 50-50 sharing of R&D. But what really happened was HAL could only accomplish 15% of the R&D work. It's unclear in what way DRDO was expected to participate. Once DRDO claimed all the technologies of FGFA can be developed inhouse, the GoI decided FGFA was not worth pursuing anymore, especially with the shoddy 15% R&D workshare. Unlike with Tejas, this time DRDO proved themselves, so the IAF is now completely backing their effort.

Political reasons would have contributed most to the abeyance of the program. We must have received a lot of indirect benefits from the West for that, notwithstanding the fact that the Russians failed to bring their A-game in negotiations, especially after they shafted us in the Brahmos program. I'd say the number 1 reason for its cancellation was the fallout from the invasion of Crimea, followed by Russian apathy in negotiations.

Another factor playing a part here is the IAF claims 5th gen is not ready for combat yet, at least what's available to them. Makes sense too, 'cause it appears the only real operational 5th gen jets today are the F-22 and J-20.
 
Hey firstly thanks for replying and welcoming me.
(y)
Secondly I'd like to know about the AMCA program. Are we actually capable to produce such a jet? Because it took us almost 20 years to make the Tejas and it's still not satisfactorily capable. So MK2 is also not ready.
Most definitely yes. Tejas was more of our learning curve. All the technologies required for AMCA are already with us. Problem remains the engine. An engine which is both fuel efficient and powerful yet reliable and allows Mach 1.5+ supercruise is required for AMCA to be a true 5th or 5th+ gen fighter.

In my opinion, that's why we're currently going slow on AMCA. Once its definitive engine is going to be finalised, you'll see how we accelerate its development.
 
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According to whatever I've read and whatever little I know, the USA hasn't actually offered us the F35.
Plus even if they do, there's that question of integrating it with the equipment we already have.
Also the cost of one f35 roughly comes around to USD 400 mil + all the armament we'll need for the plane.
The F35 coming to IAF is quite impossible actually.
US has offered F35 to Thailand, a country buying amphibious docks & submarines from China.... It has offered F35 to nations against EF2000s/Rafales when those nations cannot afford to buy it.

But for MMRCA 2.0 & MRCBF....
 
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Hey firstly thanks for replying and welcoming me.

Secondly I'd like to know about the AMCA program. Are we actually capable to produce such a jet? Because it took us almost 20 years to make the Tejas and it's still not satisfactorily capable. So MK2 is also not ready.

It's kind of bamboo farming. You put in water, manure & pesticides for years with no results and then suddenly a growth spurts.

South Korea has spent a billion plus USD on R&D for its KFX each year since 2011. For 10 years it had nothing to show.

The question is not if we can build AMCA. The question is can we be persistent & logical about it ?
 
Hey firstly thanks for replying and welcoming me.

Secondly I'd like to know about the AMCA program. Are we actually capable to produce such a jet? Because it took us almost 20 years to make the Tejas and it's still not satisfactorily capable. So MK2 is also not ready.
If you throw enough money at it anything is possible I suppose but you're going to need outside help. Just look at the Euros and you can probably conclude that it's likely going to take decades for India.
 
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If you throw enough money at it anything is possible I suppose but you're going to need outside help. Just look at the Euros and you can probably conclude that it's likely going to take decades for India.
The Euros are onto the 6th Gen skiping the 5th Gen. We aren't there yet . We're developing the 5th Gen. There's no such thing as outside help . They will either develop tech for you for a fee while retaining IP rights or sell it to you for a handsome price which is essentially how Turkey & RoK are going about their programs . The alternative is to do what China or the US or Russia did . Go alone . That's what we're doing .

The Europeans are going about it thru collaborations & such JVs happens between equals though they aren't without their share of disputes as observed previously in the Eurofighter program where France opted out & the rest of the partners continued bickering while developing the project or now in the FCAS program with France & Germany bickering . Watch out for how the Tempest program unfolds . The Brits aren't above perfidy . It's in their blood .